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scotsman

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You'll notice that it doesn't go to Scotland (if it did, I guarantee a station would be built in Lockerbie for our sole Tory MP's fairly marginal constituency).

This is because
1 - The cost will go up
2 - The Tories don't have a snowman's chance in hell of getting any more seats.
 
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route:oxford

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The balls in the Scottish Governments court now to come up with a plan to take it to Edinburgh and Glasgow and find funding for it, though I hear the Scottish government favours having two lines connecting up to the two English Y lines rather than picking one line from either side. Though seems a bit pointless to me as Edinburgh going via Glasgow or vice versa wouldnt add much journey time versus the cost of building a second complete line to the border.

I suspect you may be getting a little confused.

Whilst if you look at an *ordinary* OS map, you'd interpret that Glasgow & Edinburgh were only 40ish miles apart.

They may as well be a million miles apart and there is no way a Scottish Government would dare to favour one over the other.

(Although I do think that two infrastructure projects should be merged into one and that HS1 should be built on a "straightened" out Waverley route. It would be a massive boost for the Borders if the local "Caber" service between Carlisle and Edinburgh were to operate at 186mph.)
 

WatcherZero

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20 minutes and a million miles.....
Yeah its a political rather than infrastructure issue.
But are they really £10bn of political apart?
Any sane government will eventually have to choose one side or be crucified in the press.
 

jopsuk

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talking of twenty minutes, The Cambridge News has gone mental. I didn't think the plan they're talking about was ever seriously considered was it? It wasn't something the previous government were proposing, and was never something the current government (either party) ever really talked about in opposition.

I mean, we're already (in time terms) closer to central London than many parts of the outer London Boroughs. improvement beyond the 55 minutes peak/ 45 minutes off-peak fast trains would merely be "nice", not "essential".
 

LE Greys

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talking of twenty minutes, The Cambridge News has gone mental. I didn't think the plan they're talking about was ever seriously considered was it? It wasn't something the previous government were proposing, and was never something the current government (either party) ever really talked about in opposition.

I mean, we're already (in time terms) closer to central London than many parts of the outer London Boroughs. improvement beyond the 55 minutes peak/ 45 minutes off-peak fast trains would merely be "nice", not "essential".

One line can't go everywhere, and I hope that people realise it. That would have been my route for HS3/4/5, the relief line for HS2, but more so that people from Cambridge (and the rest of East Anglia) could reach Edinburgh in 2 hrs 30. Don't worry about going south, it's north where savings would be necessary, and where a lot of flights from Norwich Airport go. The station at Stansted would have been more important.
 
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It may be that I've missed something somewhere along the way, but has anybody seen a suggestion of where the alignment will be for the right (east) arm will be after it separates around Lichfield?

The HS2 documents seem to suggest that there will be East Midland and South Yorkshire parkway stations (perhaps around the M1 / A38 junction and around Meadowhall - not reported anywhere, just my speculations, before anybody sets any hares running) but other than that and the latest statement that it will connect to the ECML south of York, I can't find anything that's definitive.
 

Nym

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Well, if you wanna be a maverick, you could clear the route into York for European Guage, and run double deckers as far as York, and have a bypass line, oviously, for when it gets extended, but I'm sure that european guage clearance wouldn't be a problem for at least two of the platforms at York, would need a flyover to take the lines into the centre of the station and carry the scarbrough lines over it, but could be done.

TBH, it needs to serve the ECML from York, but MUST tie into Leeds City somwhere, the feeder services in West Yorkshire are a tad too important to ignore, still, I still think we need to clear the Transpennine route to mainly 4 track and 100mph running wherever possible, we have 100mph trains limited to as low as 55mph by the sodding track...

If they wanna make the north a better place for business, make it easyer to get round, not to, Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds should be sub 1hr, 30mins to each.
 

Geezertronic

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It may be that I've missed something somewhere along the way, but has anybody seen a suggestion of where the alignment will be for the right (east) arm will be after it separates around Lichfield?

The HS2 documents seem to suggest that there will be East Midland and South Yorkshire parkway stations (perhaps around the M1 / A38 junction and around Meadowhall - not reported anywhere, just my speculations, before anybody sets any hares running) but other than that and the latest statement that it will connect to the ECML south of York, I can't find anything that's definitive.

Since the Labour plans did not include this, I believe from what I have read that the consultation will start next year with a view of starting construction in 2015. Only time will tell...
 

tbtc

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The HS2 documents seem to suggest that there will be East Midland and South Yorkshire parkway stations (perhaps around the M1 / A38 junction and around Meadowhall - not reported anywhere, just my speculations, before anybody sets any hares running) but other than that and the latest statement that it will connect to the ECML south of York, I can't find anything that's definitive.

Meadowhall would be the most logical area to base a station, since the logical "direct" route from the East Midlands would be via the Rother Valley from Chesterfield to Rotherham - maybe a station around Beighton or Catcliffe, which could tie in to a "connection" service to Sheffield Victoria?

I'm really not sure that York needs including though. It's not a massive place, and would be quite out of the way for a straight line between Leeds and Newcastle. Yes, York is good for connections, but I'm not convinced it's essential.

Then again, if this gets built (IF), then there will be a lot of political "fudges", like the complaints from Cambridge/ Devon/ every little place not on the route. I mean, logically you'd have no stations within forty/fifty miles of each other, to ensure trains can get to and maintain a good top speed. But, we'll end up with two stations in close sucession in some places to keep politicians happy
 

brianthegiant

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Anything other than 4 tracks to the Y split would be extremely short sighted

4 reasons HS2 will not be 4 tracked or passive provision for 4 track for significant lengths:

1) tories already taking political risks in chilterns with 2 tracks

2) less need for 4 track as theres less pathing conflicts than classic lines where you often have intercity+suburban+freight; HS2 will only have intercity, any freight will likely be limited to a night-time window. route isnt aligned to be close to settlements, so no point having lots of stations.

3) HS2 has higher passenger capacity than classic lines anyway due to spec for double deck & long (400m?) trains

4) 4 tracking doesnt serve new destinations or cut journey times. not by accident the french (as leaders in HS line building) dont do 4 track LGVs, they just build new routes, eg new paris-calais misses out Lille entirely,
 

tripleseis

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^Indeed. Four tracking is useful if you're going have lots of stations close together, but I imagine on HS2 the sections that maybe four tracked will be parkway stations to allow clearance for passing trains so they're a distance away from platforms and passengers. Haute-Picardie on TGV Nord springs to mind here.
 

swt_passenger

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It may be that I've missed something somewhere along the way, but has anybody seen a suggestion of where the alignment will be for the right (east) arm will be after it separates around Lichfield?

That isn't where it separates, a few news sources have got that wrong.

The junction is at the north end of the Birmingham 'delta junction', so that puts it in the right place to head up the M42 corridor in the general direction of Nottingham.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/networkoptions/pdf/report.pdf

Page 11 onwards
 
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DaveNewcastle

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If they wanna make the north a better place for business, make it easyer to get round, not to, Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds should be sub 1hr, 30mins to each.
Excellent point!

You could think of comparable examples elsewhere. but the links between Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield-Hull are among the nation's worst intra-regional connections (Not that the English South West fares any better).

For HS2 (or 3 or 4) to be useful in any meaningful way, it has to deliver people to & from a wider region than simply a single station. And that requires effective local and regional connectivity by rail.
 

LE Greys

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That isn't where it separates, a few news sources have got that wrong.

The junction is at the north end of the Birmingham 'delta junction', so that puts it in the right place to head up the M42 corridor in the general direction of Nottingham.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/networkoptions/pdf/report.pdf

Page 11 onwards

I've had a look at the potential route. The M42/A42 section looks like it gives good access to Nottingham. It's a pity that rebuilding Victoria is not an option, otherwise there would be at least a partial north-south route through the city with a station in the middle of it. Picking up the A453 would give access to the alignment north of Ruddington, and I suppose a massive tunnel under the city, surfacing around Bulwell, is not an option. Still, the GCR does present a possible alignment on towards Darnell, accessing Sheffield from the east, but that's not well suited to a route northwards (my version had a triangular junction here, but the main line would have gone via Woodhead). I suppose you could head in the Barnsley direction, but it might be easier to use the Meadowhall route, but that's harder to access from a GCR alignment. The Midland "Old Road" might be a better bet (as usual, not following exactly, because of curvature problems).

Looking further on, the quickest way from Leeds to Newcastle is via Ripon, but I would still go via York, giving passengers down the eastern side of the country at least some benefit from the route, by being able to access it there. Yet another use for cascaded Eurostars, which are of course cleared to work the ECML as far as York.

The journey time comparison on page 20 makes interesting reading (although I think their figures are slightly out).
London-Newcastle
  • S - 3hrs
  • Y - 2hrs 37
  • Current ECML - 2hrs 51
  • ECML fastest service - 2hrs 45 (I think)
  • ECML record - 2hrs 24 (I think)

London-Edinburgh/Glasgow
  • S - 3hrs 47
  • Y - 3hrs 47
  • Current ECML - 4hrs 21
  • ECML fastest service - 3hrs 59
  • ECML record - 3hrs 29

I reckon that IC225s running at 140 could equal, or even beat, the fastest times compared with HS2. If they extend the arms of the Y, even if only to Newcastle in the east, you really would get significant time savings. Do it by running parallel to the ECML, possibly closing the slow lines south of Northallerton to make space, straight through Darlington (potentially to access the station Ashford-style), then diverting roughly along the route of the Leamside to avoid Durham and rejoining somewhere around Pelaw Grange. I'd think about going under the Tyne rather than over, with a new station underneath the old, then surfacing somewhere around Benton (expensive, but saves on having to expand and realign the KEVII Bridge). Then, you'd be talking about reaching Newcastle in around 2hrs 10 or less.

As for Scotland, the difficult bit would be getting out of Manchester. By rejoining the WCML somewhere north of Preston, then running on a not-exactly-parallel route towards the Lune Gorge and Carlisle, then over Beattock to Carstairs, you would have the option of using the existing line to Edinburgh (at least temporarily) and a new line to somewhere around Motherwell, then the old line to Glasgow Central. Alternate services between Edinburgh and Glasgow, with at least some of the Edinburgh ones going on to Aberdeen or Inverness, and there you are. Then you're talking about a three-hour or less service between the capitals, within the famous barrier.

Of course, this doesn't deliver the 200 mph trains running into King's Cross, St Pancras, Euston and Paddington from different parts of the country that I wanted to see (especially King's Cross). We may have to wait thirty years for that.
 

EWS 58038

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However, despite being on the direct route from Calais to Paris, Amines is currently bypassed by LGV Nord in favour of Lille, purely because Lille is more convenient as a junction for Brussels.

Amiens does have it's TGV connection through Haute Picardie TGV station and a 15 minute bus link to St. Quentin.
 

tivoli

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talking of twenty minutes, The Cambridge News has gone mental. I didn't think the plan they're talking about was ever seriously considered was it? It wasn't something the previous government were proposing, and was never something the current government (either party) ever really talked about in opposition.

I mean, we're already (in time terms) closer to central London than many parts of the outer London Boroughs. improvement beyond the 55 minutes peak/ 45 minutes off-peak fast trains would merely be "nice", not "essential".

The Cambridge News has a habit of going mental on many subjects!
 

tbtc

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Looking further on, the quickest way from Leeds to Newcastle is via Ripon, but I would still go via York, giving passengers down the eastern side of the country at least some benefit from the route

The "eastern side of the country" will get the benefit of having the ECML freed up quite considerably, since a number of existing London - Leeds/ Newcastle/ Scotland services will divert to HS2 instead.

As I've said, York can't really be justified

I reckon that IC225s running at 140 could equal, or even beat, the fastest times compared with HS2

True, but at a huge cost to the rest of routes.

I'm no big fan of "high speed at all costs", but if we are going to do it we need to do it properly, and run "fast" trains on dedicated routes, rather than try to cram them onto routes shared with Pacers.
 

brianthegiant

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I just noticed that the wikipedia page on high speed 2 seems to be rather 'negative' ie lots of links to campaign groups, all the documents cited are the ones which paint HS2 in a poor light eg by the 'RAC foundation' none of the documents which support the benefits of HS2 (eg the various greenguage21 reports) are cited.
I would strongly encourage anyone who supports HS2 to:
1) keep an eye on the wikipedia page
2) please add more positive citations, & add more positive text to balance existing critique
3) copy & paste what you add & keep it eg as a word doc, in case it gets deleted.
If your content gets deleted & there appears to be an active effort to misuse said page, then we would need to look at what systems are available in the wikipedia community to prevent bias (these do exist for controversial pages)
 

imagination

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Seems like it is Ladbroke67 and Ctolmie who made those changes, and many of the changes have been gradually being removed since...
 

Geezertronic

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I personally removed the link to the Stop HS2 Facebook page when they decided they were going to ban people with differing opinions from the group. Some of the information on that group was just factually incorrect and I suppose I made a rod for my own back going on and putting them straight. If they are going to decide to ban people from the group, I didn't see why the link should be added.
 

sprinterguy

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I’ve just had a look at the “S” and “Y” option report, and I’m interested to see Crosscountry services using the high speed line are mentioned for the first time that I’ve come across: That’s sure to cause a large degree of inefficiency, once 225mph capable super trains join the classic network south west from Birmingham: Actually, without electrification all the way to Plymouth from Birmingham, how would that work at all if long distance Crosscountry through trains were retained. Though it may be more of a reference to capacity being freed up on the MML rather than XC services on HS2.

LE Greys has posted a very thorough and interesting post above. I too am surprised by how similar a London to Newcastle HS2 time would be to the current Kings Cross to Newcastle ECML journey time: This goes to show that for HS2 to really be beneficial to the majority of the UK, the Leeds arm of the “Y” has to be extended towards Newcastle, cutting out the sinuous section of the ECML in County Durham north of Darlington: I’m with him on the suggestion of a route via Ripon and then roughly following the alignment of the southern half of the Leamside line. York could still have connections to HS2 if Crosscountry services did make use of HS2 in any form, as they could use the classic northern section of the ECML as far as York and join HS2 around Leeds.

In some sort of dreamworld, HS2 would run from London to Scotland via Birmingham and Manchester on the West Coast, with branches to both Edinburgh and Glasgow, with an arm from Birmingham to the East Midlands, South Yorkshire, Leeds and Newcastle. The ECML could be accelerated to 140mph to provide faster journey times for east coast destinations to/from London, and ensure York retains a competitive journey time to London. It’ll never happen no doubt, but never mind...
 

YorkshireBear

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i was thinking about east midlands parkway, would it be worth providin a fast link (ie 100mph with 321 like stock) to nottingham leicster and derby, just sothese towns/cities actually benfit from high speed
 

sprinterguy

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i was thinking about east midlands parkway, would it be worth providin a fast link (ie 100mph with 321 like stock) to nottingham leicster and derby, just sothese towns/cities actually benfit from high speed

Agreed. I was musing over whether it would be possible to put a new East Midlands Parkway station over the top of the Trent junction triangle, with platforms on each side of the triangle for the classic lines underneath, and then run HS2 up past Totn and along the M1 corridor. Probably can't be done, I reckon the River Trent floodplain would be too close. But it would then be possible for all trains travelling Nottingham to Derby to call there, which gives an instant HS2 shuttle service to the East Midlands towns without the need to introduce new trains. And of course there would be links to Leicester out of services to/from the MML to the south.
 

LE Greys

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Agreed. I was musing over whether it would be possible to put a new East Midlands Parkway station over the top of the Trent junction triangle, with platforms on each side of the triangle for the classic lines underneath, and then run HS2 up past Totn and along the M1 corridor. Probably can't be done, I reckon the River Trent floodplain would be too close. But it would then be possible for all trains travelling Nottingham to Derby to call there, which gives an instant HS2 shuttle service to the East Midlands towns without the need to introduce new trains. And of course there would be links to Leicester out of services to/from the MML to the south.

That's an interesting idea. Thinking about the existing East Midlands Parkway, which is a mile and a half south of the triangle, one of the major problems there is that a Nottingham-Derby service would have to reverse. If that was moved northwards as far as the triangle, which would result in a very spread-out station, but with plenty of room for HS2 platforms in the middle. There's a bit of a problem with access, but it would present a decent central location to access the local area and East Midlands Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I’ve just had a look at the “S” and “Y” option report, and I’m interested to see Crosscountry services using the high speed line are mentioned for the first time that I’ve come across: That’s sure to cause a large degree of inefficiency, once 225mph capable super trains join the classic network south west from Birmingham: Actually, without electrification all the way to Plymouth from Birmingham, how would that work at all if long distance Crosscountry through trains were retained. Though it may be more of a reference to capacity being freed up on the MML rather than XC services on HS2.

That's curious, because my Great Central-based version originally had potential for cross-country services, but was intended to have four tracks anyway, and this would have run on the slow lines. An upgrade for the MML to 125, plus an improved Sheffield-Leeds route would have much more of an effect, and perhaps that's what they were getting at.

Incidentally, I was much more keen on the "Hudson" route via York, because it would enable cascaded Eurostars from King's Cross to access the route there, linking Doncaster and Peterborough to HS2. However, the Ripon route might be a better use of resources, and so it's a balance between outright speed and connectivity.
 

YorkshireBear

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could you not have one connect to ECML short of york and one going north at high speed bypassing it> can't be a drstic price increase?
 

brianthegiant

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I personally removed the link to the Stop HS2 Facebook page when they decided they were going to ban people with differing opinions from the group. Some of the information on that group was just factually incorrect and I suppose I made a rod for my own back going on and putting them straight. If they are going to decide to ban people from the group, I didn't see why the link should be added.

@'imagination & geezertronic:
GREAT, good to know others are keeping an eye on the HS2 wikipedia page,
I think the page could do with more content about the positives for example a paragraph on economic benefits citing the various press releases by CBI, northern councils, greenguage21, I'll try putting something together at some point..maybe something for a seperate thread on railforums
I had the same experience with the facebook group, there is also a 'we want more high speed trains' group, but it hasnt taken off in a big way..'Anti' campaigns sadly often better motivators..
 
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