HS2 spare capacity

[fishwomp]

Now we are certain that HS2 isn't going to be what it was to be - at least within the next 15 if not 20 years..
a) the total number of services will lower on the core than it is still to be built for.
b) Curzon St is also being built for the original number of services.
c) Extra journey times because of OOC terminus for first 5-10 years may suppress Birmingham-London demand (as there is also +10 min walking cost at Birmingham end for eg. Wolverhampton traffic, no Cov traffic, extra walking for any other suburban in the area).

This makes me think, yet again, that connecting HS2 to more interesting railways would still be worth doing, more than ever.. the Berkswell overpass could be so much better as a junction.. link it with Cov-Brum here. Divert Cross-Country and the classic WCML (ie. Cov) traffic to New Street this way.

Then... either: terminate at Curzon St .. or build HS2 to New Street connecting line, either near Curzon St, or the Duddeston area. I don't know which is better - seems six of one, half a dozen the other.​

- reduces journey times of XC and Classic-WCML.​

- frees up capacity on the dual-track Cov-New St traffic, massively - improves suburban services.​

- win for local/national traffic! - something they could actually sell!​

 

[adamedwards]

The problem this creates is in 10 years time you have to cancel the services created to create space from services further north.

As regards walking time in Birmingham, the service on the ECML to Euston will remain, just slower, so Curzon St to OOC will be the fast service from the city centre. Anyone changing at New St will be routed via the WCmL, but there will be more seats freed up by the HS2 services.

It's all so very sad and such a mess. I can't wait for this useless Govt to be voted out. They have run out of any vision and forward thinking.

 

[fishwomp]

The problem this creates is in 10 years time you have to cancel the services created to create space from services further north.

There won't be any ... that's the point that everyone needs to recognize. If Labour come to power, they are not going to say 'carry on and dig faster'..
So, if there is a problem in _20 years_ from now possibly .. this is a good slug of the the working-life of any voter. Something today_ beats something in 20 years... an extra carriage on the 17.10 to Bolton today beats a faster trip to London in 20 years.

As regards walking time in Birmingham, the service on the ECML to Euston will remain, just slower, so Curzon St to OOC will be the fast service from the city centre. Anyone changing at New St will be routed via the WCmL, but there will be more seats freed up by the HS2 services.

Hopefully an open-access operator will be allowed to change that.. but I suspect rules will be/have been set to ensure it can't do it.

 

[Bald Rick]

You need to remember that HS2 phase 1 is being built. Changing it now, even for a relatively small thing such as a new junction, means going right back to square one - new consultation, new surveys, designs, etc, then a new consents process (in the case proposed, likely a Development Consent Order), then more detail design, before it can start to be built. By the time that’s all done, Phase 1 will be finished. Just in time to be dug up again. Not going to happen.

 

[The Planner]

Now we are certain that HS2 isn't going to be what it was to be - at least within the next 15 if not 20 years..
a) the total number of services will lower on the core than it is still to be built for.
b) Curzon St is also being built for the original number of services.
c) Extra journey times because of OOC terminus for first 5-10 years may suppress Birmingham-London demand (as there is also +10 min walking cost at Birmingham end for eg. Wolverhampton traffic, no Cov traffic, extra walking for any other suburban in the area).

This makes me think, yet again, that connecting HS2 to more interesting railways would still be worth doing, more than ever.. the Berkswell overpass could be so much better as a junction.. link it with Cov-Brum here. Divert Cross-Country and the classic WCML (ie. Cov) traffic to New Street this way.

Then... either: terminate at Curzon St .. or build HS2 to New Street connecting line, either near Curzon St, or the Duddeston area. I don't know which is better - seems six of one, half a dozen the other.​

- reduces journey times of XC and Classic-WCML.​

- frees up capacity on the dual-track Cov-New St traffic, massively - improves suburban services.​

- win for local/national traffic! - something they could actually sell!​

I don't get how building a junction at Berkswell frees capacity on the Cov corridor, though the grade separation would be impressive. Any junction to allow traffic from HS2 to New St would have to be back around Washwood Heath.

 

[fishwomp]

I don't get how building a junction at Berkswell frees capacity on the Cov corridor,

because it won't be going between Berkswell and approx Saltley.. that smells like capacity for all the stoppers. The XC and classic WCML can stop at new-International.

Any junction to allow traffic from HS2 to New St would have to be back around Washwood Heath.

.. or nearer Curzon St, or around Duddeston or even - there is plenty railway land and industrial land that HS2 will be going over anyway...
Alternatively, _use_ Curzon St - there will be spare platforms. Arguments both ways.

 

[The Planner]

because it won't be going between Berkswell and approx Saltley.. that smells like capacity for all the stoppers. The XC and classic WCML can stop at new-International.


.. or nearer Curzon St, or around Duddeston or even - there is plenty railway land and industrial land that HS2 will be going over anyway...
Alternatively, _use_ Curzon St - there will be spare platforms. Arguments both ways.

Maybe becuase its friday I am not getting it. Are you saying that HS2 joins in the Birmingham direction or the Coventry direction? As for the HS2 junction near Curzon St, it would have to be near Washwood Heath as otherwise the height difference stops it. You would want to do it on the level.

 

[HSTEd]

The problem this creates is in 10 years time you have to cancel the services created to create space from services further north.

It's insane to leave a line empty for a decade or three because we might need the capacity later.

If we can fill the line immediately we should fill the line immediately to amortise the costs of constructing it.

One analogy might be the old Megabus tie-in promotion that was run out of East Midlands Parkway by Stagecoach (is that still running?)

For a lot of destinations changing at Birmingham onto HS2 will be the cheapest route for the state to get the person to London. We should exploit this to the fullest.

 

[fishwomp]

Maybe becuase its friday I am not getting it. Are you saying that HS2 joins in the Birmingham direction or the Coventry direction? As for the HS2 junction near Curzon St, it would have to be near Washwood Heath as otherwise the height difference stops it. You would want to do it on the level.

Berkswell - Birmingham.. XC should use HS2.

What height do you think the difference is .. and how much is that any different from other flyovers across the network.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's insane to leave a line empty for a decade or three because we might need the capacity later.
If we can fill the line immediately, we should fill the line immediately to amortise the costs of constructing it.

Sounds a bit too much like "Common sense" for many I fear.

 

[The Planner]

Berkswell - Birmingham.. XC should use HS2.

What height do you think the difference is .. and how much is that any different from other flyovers across the network.

That still isnt clear.... are you saying a train from Euston on HS2 can join the Coventry corridor towards Birmingham, or are you saying that a train from Curzon St can join the Coventry corridor towards Coventry. The grade seperation would require you to either go over the top of HS2 or a considerable chord to go under.

 

[fishwomp]

That still isnt clear.... are you saying a train from Euston on HS2 can join the Coventry corridor towards Birmingham, or are you saying that a train from Curzon St can join the Coventry corridor towards Coventry. The grade seperation would require you to either go over the top of HS2 or a considerable chord to go under.

The latter. There is massive congestion between New St and Coventry due to mostly only double track. Opening up the HS2 fast route into Birmingham for XC and classic WCML would mean faster journey and ability to increase number of stoppers.

Is it hard for two crossing lines that are separated vertically to also be joined by chords between them... There are dozens of examples on the network already! Is it something only Victorians could do

 

[The Planner]

The latter. There is massive congestion between New St and Coventry due to mostly only double track. Opening up the HS2 fast route into Birmingham for XC and classic WCML would mean faster journey and ability to increase number of stoppers.

Is it hard for two crossing lines that are separated vertically to also be joined by chords between them... There are dozens of examples on the network already! Is it something only Victorians could do

OK, but how does it release capacity between Birmingham International and Coventry? Trains joining at Berkswell would eat up paths for stoppers. As for joining the two railways up, to not use up capacity on HS2 you need to be joining it at speed, that requires a significant junction to do that, especially on the skew that HS2 crosses the current line. Have a look on GoogleMaps to see. Your junction would be flying 20 odd metres over Berkswell station.

 

[snowball]

Is it hard for two crossing lines that are separated vertically to also be joined by chords between them... There are dozens of examples on the network already! Is it something only Victorians could do

Are you talking about a chord with flat junctions at each end? HS2 avoids having those, presumably as they reduce capacity and flexibility of timetabling.
If you don't have a flat junction at each end, you need a three-level junction overall.

 

[Bald Rick]

The latter. There is massive congestion between New St and Coventry due to mostly only double track. Opening up the HS2 fast route into Birmingham for XC and classic WCML would mean faster journey and ability to increase number of stoppers.

Is it hard for two crossing lines that are separated vertically to also be joined by chords between them... There are dozens of examples on the network already! Is it something only Victorians could do

So I think you mean that there would be a grade separated Junction at Berkswell that enables trains from the Coventry direction join HS2 to go to Curzon St. Assuming these services also stop at Interchange, it would be the same journey time. Also, the Cross Country services would have to be electric, as there is no facility fo diesel services in the HS2 tunnels.

Also, Given that there is no facility to go from HS2 to New St, this means either another grade separated facility near Washwood Heath that enables that, or that the trains ex Coventry that join HS2 only go to Curzon St.

two grade departed junctions at High Speed standards are going to be the thick end of half a billion (very possibly more) and they wouldn’t be built until around 4-6 years after that part of HS2 opens. By which point the rest of HS 2 will be nearly finished, and the capacity these services use between Berkswell and Curzon St would need to be given up.

Seems like a complete waste of money to me. what am I missing?

 

[fishwomp]

So I think you mean that there would be a grade separated Junction at Berkswell that enables trains from the Coventry direction join HS2 to go to Curzon St. Assuming these services also stop at Interchange, it would be the same journey time. Also, the Cross Country services would have to be electric, as there is no facility fo diesel services in the HS2 tunnels.

By the time this opens, XC will surely have bi-mode fleet.

Also, Given that there is no facility to go from HS2 to New St, this means either another grade separated facility near Washwood Heath that enables that, or that the trains ex Coventry that join HS2 only go to Curzon St.

Right. Yes, or somewhere between Washwood Heath and Duddeston.

two grade departed junctions at High Speed standards are going to be the thick end of half a billion (very possibly more) and they wouldn’t be built until around 4-6 years after that part of HS2 opens.

How fast will it be doing at Washwood Heath.. yes, Berkswell will be high-speed - 70mph for traffic leaving HS2 would be fine - nothing would get to that speed leaving Coventry, and anything to Cov will already be braking.

By which point the rest of HS 2 will be nearly finished, and the capacity these services use between Berkswell and Curzon St would need to be given up.

HS2 is not going to use its 18 paths an hour - we need to wake up and smell the coffee..

Seems like a complete waste of money to me. what am I missing?

HS2, yes.., but I'm trying to make a bit of extra use of it..

 

[Bald Rick]

By the time this opens, XC will surely have bi-mode fleet.

Oh that’s a good one. if they were having a bi mode fleet by then, there would be some market sounding now.

How fast will it be doing at Washwood Heath.. yes, Berkswell will be high-speed - 70mph for traffic leaving HS2 would be fine - nothing would get to that speed leaving Coventry, and anything to Cov will already be braking.

70mph for HS2 traffic leaving at Berkswell would be wholly unacceptable, and eat into the following train. Also, Trains leaving Coventry are at linespeed by Tile Hill, and trains going to Coventry didn’t brake until past Canley if on a clear road.

HS2 is not going to use its 18 paths an hour - we need to wake up and smell the coffee..

I doubt it will use 18tph. However it will certainly use 3 minute headways, which is the pertinent issue.

 

[The Planner]

By the time this opens, XC will surely have bi-mode fleet.

Right. Yes, or somewhere between Washwood Heath and Duddeston.

How fast will it be doing at Washwood Heath.. yes, Berkswell will be high-speed - 70mph for traffic leaving HS2 would be fine - nothing would get to that speed leaving Coventry, and anything to Cov will already be braking.

HS2 is not going to use its 18 paths an hour - we need to wake up and smell the coffee..

HS2, yes.., but I'm trying to make a bit of extra use of it..

Not sure why you keep pressing for a junction to be close to Curzon St. The original passive provision that got dropped very early on was at Washwood Heath. You are also way out on on the speeds on the Cov corridor, you are at Canley before the brakes go in, 70 is far too low to join HS2 as well, you would need to be well over a ton.

 

[fishwomp]

Oh that’s a good one. if they were having a bi mode fleet by then, there would be some market sounding now.

When is this section of HS2 opening? Quite a few operators seem able to place orders for and get delivery in under 5 years of Hitachi... EMR? Lumo?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2023 ==

Not sure why you keep pressing for a junction to be close to Curzon St. The original passive provision that got dropped very early on was at Washwood Heath. You are also way out on on the speeds on the Cov corridor, you are at Canley before the brakes go in, 70 is far too low to join HS2 as well, you would need to be well over a ton.

Happy to be corrected on that

 

[Nottingham59]

This makes me think, yet again, that connecting HS2 to more interesting railways would still be worth doing, more than ever..

There are a number of possibilities that could have been built into the design of HS2 to integrate it much better into the rest of the rail network, but the chance to do that is now well past for Phases 1 and 2a.

But even with the planned network, there are opportunities to exploit it more fully. Birmingham-Manchester is already in the plans, but I don't see why there shouldn't be Birmingham-Liverpool HS services too. If the London leg can handle 17tph, then the Western Leg should have plenty of capacity.

If the eastern stump to East Midlands Parkway gets built, then they shouldn't just run a 2tph shuttle from Nottingham to Curzon St. These 2tph should reverse to form HS2 services from Birmingham to Manchester or to Liverpool. Manchester-Nottingham in 1h20 compared to 2h now. And direct Liverpool-Nottingham service in 1h30m (vs. 3h now).

And if the stump is amputated at the hip to join the Birmingham-Derby line at Kingbury instead, then run Sheffield-Derby-Curzon St-Crewe-Liverpool services, though the time savings are less spectacular.

 

[Snow1964]

I think it is a big shame that no additional spurs were added (or at least step plate junctions to allow them to be added later) at the London end.

Just imagine if there had been a single track reversible spur at Old Oak western (Victoria Road) box to/from the centre pair of platforms at Old Oak leading to between the fast tracks of GW mainline. So 1 or 2 trains per hour could have reversed in centre platforms and headed to South Wales or Bristol (without people having to change).

Similarly a single spur the other end of Old Oak so that 1 train per hour could get to West London line and potentially onwards to Gatwick and Sussex coast.

I do think they have missed a trick by assuming everyone's final destination is Euston, and no one has mobility problems so there no need for a limited through service, as everyone likes changing trains.

Perhaps more realistically a spur near Bicester to allow an hourly train to go via Oxford and Swindon to South Wales. Ok might have needed a reversible single track flyover at Didcot to link Oxford and Swindon line. But again, not everyone wants to travel via London area and change trains, especially those with mobility problems.

I don't know the fraction of population that won't change trains due to mobility issues, by 17.7% or 9.8m in England have a disability per census data. And of course statistically if travelling as a pair or group, only need 1 not to be able to change trains

Disability, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Information on disability in England and Wales, Census 2021 data.

www.ons.gov.uk

If people won't (or find it difficult to) change trains potentially HS2 will never serve huge parts of the country which is a waste.

 

[The Planner]

They havent assumed everyone is going to Euston, hence OOC. Also bear in mind that any spur in the middle of the route would have to be very high speed as to not impact capacity.

 

[Fleetmaster]

This would simply cement the arguably false idea that HS2 is about major costs for minor benefits delivered years after they were needed.

 

[zwk500]

I think it is a big shame that no additional spurs were added (or at least step plate junctions to allow them to be added later) at the London end.

Just imagine if there had been a single track reversible spur at Old Oak western (Victoria Road) box to/from the centre pair of platforms at Old Oak leading to between the fast tracks of GW mainline. So 1 or 2 trains per hour could have reversed in centre platforms and headed to South Wales or Bristol (without people having to change).

There's already a Birmingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Bristol option without changing from New Street.

Similarly a single spur the other end of Old Oak so that 1 train per hour could get to West London line and potentially onwards to Gatwick and Sussex coast.

HS2 trains trying to get out at Falcon Junction? WCML-Sussex coast ended years ago for reasons HS2 doesn't fix.

I do think they have missed a trick by assuming everyone's final destination is Euston, and no one has mobility problems so there no need for a limited through service, as everyone likes changing trains.

They've not been so absolutist, it's quite disingenuous to suggest they have.

Perhaps more realistically a spur near Bicester to allow an hourly train to go via Oxford and Swindon to South Wales. Ok might have needed a reversible single track flyover at Didcot to link Oxford and Swindon line. But again, not everyone wants to travel via London area and change trains, especially those with mobility problems.

Who are you serving with this? London-South Wales has direct trains from Paddington, the change at OOC is going to be very easy. Oxford to South Wales can change at reading, again a fully accessible station.

If people won't (or find it difficult to) change trains potentially HS2 will never serve huge parts of the country which is a waste.

Very few people will refuse to change trains and HS2 does not need to serve every part of the country to be a success.