HS2 Rolling Stock Tender

[F Great Eastern]

So it seems that Siemens are now talking about taking HS2 Ltd to court following the recent action by Talgo about a similar issue.

The comment from Siemens reads

As the official tender process is still ongoing, we currently cannot comment/

At this stage it looks like Alstom are probably a shoo-in at this stage, either via their own bid or the joint venture one between Bombardier and Hitachi.

The fact that two bidders have mooted legal action whilst the 'official tender process is still ongoing' suggests that Talgo and Siemens have seen something they have become upset by, even if it might not yet be official.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So it seems that Siemens are now talking about taking HS2 Ltd to court following the recent action by Talgo about a similar issue.
The comment from Siemens reads
At this stage it looks like Alstom are probably a shoo-in at this stage, either via their own bid or the joint venture one between Bombardier and Hitachi.
The fact that two bidders have mooted legal action whilst the 'official tender process is still ongoing' suggests that Talgo and Siemens have seen something they have become upset by, even if it might not yet be official.

If the Bombardier-Hitachi bid wins, won't Hitachi take control of it?
If it's based on Frecciarossa 1000, Alstom won't have any interest in it except maybe as a subcontractor.

 

[Poppysdad]

Where d

So it seems that Siemens are now talking about taking HS2 Ltd to court following the recent action by Talgo about a similar issue.

The comment from Siemens reads


At this stage it looks like Alstom are probably a shoo-in at this stage, either via their own bid or the joint venture one between Bombardier and Hitachi.

The fact that two bidders have mooted legal action whilst the 'official tender process is still ongoing' suggests that Talgo and Siemens have seen something they have become upset by, even if it might not yet be official.

Where did the Siemens comment originate from ?

 

[nlogax]

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/siemens-launches-legal-action-against-hs2/

SIEMENS Mobility has launched a legal battle against High Speed 2 (HS2), filing a procurement claim against the company on June 21.

The German manufacturer is one of five shortlisted for the high-speed train contract, the winner of which is due to be announced this summer. Siemens is also the second of the five bidders to launch a legal claim against HS2 Ltd, following Spanish manufacturer Talgo.

Neither Siemens nor HS2 would comment on the reasons for the claim. A Siemens spokesperson told IRJ: “as the official tender process is still ongoing, we currently cannot comment.”

An HS2 spokesperson told IRJ that at this stage the company was unable to comment on the situation

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

If the Bombardier-Hitachi bid wins, won't Hitachi take control of it?
If it's based on Frecciarossa 1000, Alstom won't have any interest in it except maybe as a subcontractor.

The Zefiro platform, including the version for HS2, is one of the assets that Alstom has to divest as a condition of approval from the European Commission.

The Commission’s approval for the transaction is conditional on the proposed engagements that consist of:

• A transfer of Bombardier Transportation’s contribution to the V300 ZEFIRO very high-speed train and an offer of IP licence to Hitachi for the train co-developed by Hitachi and Bombardier Transportation for use in future very high-speed tenders in the UK
• The divestment of the Alstom Coradia Polyvalent and the Reichshoffen production site in France
• The divestment of the Bombardier TALENT 3 platform and dedicated production facilities located within the Hennigsdorf site in Germany
• Providing access to certain interfaces and products for some of Bombardier Transportation’s Signalling On-Board Units and Train Control Management Systems (TCMS)

European Commission clears Alstom’s acquisition of Bombardier Transportation

31 July 2020 – Alstom and Bombardier welcome the European Commission’s (EC) decision for conditional clearance of the proposed acquisition of Bombardier Transportation by Alstom.

www.alstom.com

 

[hwl]

So it seems that Siemens are now talking about taking HS2 Ltd to court following the recent action by Talgo about a similar issue.

The comment from Siemens reads


At this stage it looks like Alstom are probably a shoo-in at this stage, either via their own bid or the joint venture one between Bombardier and Hitachi.

The fact that two bidders have mooted legal action whilst the 'official tender process is still ongoing' suggests that Talgo and Siemens have seen something they have become upset by, even if it might not yet be official.

As Alstom are involved in two of 5 bids, it is almost certain to involve them in some way.

The HS2 tender required the products to be based existing platforms to reduce risk. The two best suited platforms to the other technical requirements being from Bombardier / Hitachi and Siemens. Alstom would struggle to modify their existing platforms to score as well technically as B/H or S.
Alstom is also sitting and burning through a large cash pile post GE power and rail asset swap.
Alstom (see GH's post above) has to sell several plants and platforms for which it will struggle to get a good price.

a) The V300 Zefiro UK development work is only worth anything if it wins this contract, hence an incentive for Alstom to help on pricing. (Anyone remember the Thameslink contract mostly being about bidder credit ratings?)
b) Still plenty of outstanding V300 orders for other countries for which they are supplying parts etc.
c) Alstom could have realised that they weren't going to win based on modifying their existing platform and may have very very heavily modified it instead and if this is the case Talgo (why did they bother bidding?) + Siemens are probably objecting to the extent of Alstoms modifications and whether it counts as an existing platform.
d) Alstom heavily subsidising their own bid which gives them a very good chance for the follow on orders for Phase 2.

It could also be unrelated to Alstom e.g. HS2's procurement team may have different interpretation of what was in the spec vs some bidders hence the legal clarification route before a final decision is likely to be more successful. Previous rail procurement issues suggest it is better to complain earlier.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The V300 Zefiro UK development work is only worth anything if it wins this contract, hence an incentive for Alstom to help on pricing.

The bids were submitted in June 2019, so how would that influence the price that Bombardier and Hitachi tendered? Or by "pricing" do you mean how much Hitachi will pay for rights to the Zefiro platform?

 

[hwl]

The bids were submitted in June 2019, so how would that influence the price that Bombardier and Hitachi tendered? Or by "pricing" do you mean how much Hitachi will pay for rights to the Zefiro platform?

From memory the tender was for indicative rolling stock spec (one main spec and 2 variations on it) that subject to further discussion, iteration and change with the submitted price relating to that rather than a revised spec and price later. Hence if B+H & Siemens are in the leading positions and Alstom are in with no chance in third, it is better for them than B+H wins and Alstom can get some money from IP licencing/component supply.

TfL are /were getting sued by Bombardier and Alstom (separately) over the NTfL contract.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Be interesting to see what happens with this, two bidders taking legal action for a contract that hasn't yet been announced, suggests that something has happened. Option c) especially above would certainly make sense.

Curious about a certain word in that statement as well.

 

[fgwrich]

Be interesting to see what happens with this, two bidders taking legal action for a contract that hasn't yet been announced, suggests that something has happened. Option c) especially above would certainly make sense.

Curious about a certain word in that statement as well.

Likewise. I wouldn't be surprised if Boris's "Buy British" mantra will remain with this contract too (as in Derby + Newton Aycliffe - ignore where the companies are actually based...)

 

[Domh245]

Likewise. I wouldn't be surprised if Boris's "Buy British" mantra will remain with this contract too (as in Derby + Newton Aycliffe - ignore where the companies are actually based...)

Siemens have their upcoming facility in Goole, CAF have Newport, Alstom sort of have Widnes, and even talgo were proposing a site in Scotland, so "buy British***" would have been covered under all bids anyway

 

[DanNCL]

This contract is starting to look like it'll become yet another railway scandal...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Likewise. I wouldn't be surprised if Boris's "Buy British" mantra will remain with this contract too (as in Derby + Newton Aycliffe - ignore where the companies are actually based...)

Boris cannot enforce Buy British for railway equipment, even with the change in procurement policy now emerging.
Even WTO rules mean a certain level of playing field.
I think this procurement was wholly under EU rules as the bids were invited when we were a member.
And all factories import major components from outside the UK.

 

[Roast Veg]

Given the importance and cash value of this tender, I'd be shocked if there wasn't legal action from a sore party. Seems to be par for the course now.

 

[hwl]

Siemens have their upcoming facility in Goole, CAF have Newport, Alstom sort of have Widnes, and even talgo were proposing a site in Scotland, so "buy British***" would have been covered under all bids anyway

Impossible to fulfil the apprenticeship requirements without a UK presence...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2021 ==

Be interesting to see what happens with this, two bidders taking legal action for a contract that hasn't yet been announced, suggests that something has happened. Option c) especially above would certainly make sense.

Curious about a certain word in that statement as well.

My statement or theirs?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Impossible to fulfil the apprenticeship requirements without a UK presence...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2021 ==


My statement or theirs?

Their statement.

 

[hwl]

This contract is starting to look like it'll become yet another railway scandal...

Just wait for the legal action from the other 4 if CAF were to win...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just wait for the legal action from the other 4 if CAF were to win...

Lets be realistic, this is a serious forum.

 

[Doomotron]

I am sure that in the end it'll be CSRE that gets the contract.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am sure that in the end it'll be CSRE that gets the contract.

Except they didn't bid. All 5 bidders are European (Hitachi having two plants in Europe).
The company you seem to be thinking about is called CRRC.

 

[MCR247]

I am sure that in the end it'll be CSRE that gets the contract.

Now that’s a name I haven’t heard for a while I remember when a poster on here (that said they worked for them IIRC) was adamant that CSRE were building a ‘Polaris HST2’ for Grand Central

 

[Doomotron]

Except they didn't bid. All 5 bidders are European (Hitachi having two plants in Europe).
The company you seem to be thinking about is called CRRC.

r/whoosh
(It was a joke.)

 

[WatcherZero]

Now that’s a name I haven’t heard for a while I remember when a poster on here (that said they worked for them IIRC) was adamant that CSRE were building a ‘Polaris HST2’ for Grand Central

They also promised Northern some prototypes of a cloned Sprinter for testing and evaluation. (they acquired a set of the original blueprints for the model after buying out a British engineering firm)

Never delivered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2021 ==

Except they didn't bid. All 5 bidders are European (Hitachi having two plants in Europe).
The company you seem to be thinking about is called CRRC.

Both Siemens and Talgo have recently been eliminated after round 4 of the competition, final shortlist is now Bombardier-Hitachi, Alstom (owned by Bombardier) and CAF.

Both Siemens and Talgo sued on the count of 1. Alstom was now owned by Bombardier and should be eliminated as a double entry, 2. Bias decision making.
Talgo have settled out of court, settlement terms arent public but looks like theyve conceded defeat on the contract (possibly in return for some compensation?).

 

[fgwrich]

They also promised Northern some prototypes of a cloned Sprinter for testing and evaluation. (they acquired a set of the original blueprints for the model after buying out a British engineering firm)

Never delivered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2021 ==



Both Siemens and Talgo have recently been eliminated after round 4 of the competition, final shortlist is now Bombardier-Hitachi, Alstom (owned by Bombardier) and CAF.

Both Siemens and Talgo sued on the count of 1. Alstom was now owned by Bombardier and should be eliminated as a double entry, 2. Bias decision making.
Talgo have settled out of court, settlement terms arent public but looks like theyve conceded defeat on the contract (possibly in return for some compensation?).

Wrong way around - Bombardier Transportation is now part of Alstom.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Both Siemens and Talgo have recently been eliminated after round 4 of the competition, final shortlist is now Bombardier-Hitachi, Alstom (owned by Bombardier) and CAF.

Both Siemens and Talgo sued on the count of 1. Alstom was now owned by Bombardier and should be eliminated as a double entry, 2. Bias decision making.
Talgo have settled out of court, settlement terms arent public but looks like theyve conceded defeat on the contract (possibly in return for some compensation?).

I know that's the vibe, but nothing's official yet surely?
So it's Zefiro vs AGV vs Oaris?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well, the last three remaining bidders would certainly have the biggest prospect of building the most of such order in the UK, that is for sure and perhaps that is something that has given them a little edge? I don't know as I haven't seen the tender criteria so this may be ignorance on my part.

This will no doubt lead to a wider discussion on future stock procurement tenders under non EU rules going forward under GBR about how important build quality, performance, track record, reliability and ability to meet deadlines are compared to being predominantly build and assembled in Britain.

Personally my view is that if we can buy a top quality product that is built in the UK that ticks all the boxes then we should do that. But we shouldn't end up buying British just because it is primarily British when there are other products that will serve the railway better. That is just nonsense and is simply putting domestic politics ahead of the actual people who use the trains.

I know that's the vibe, but nothing's official yet surely?
So it's Zefiro vs AGV vs Oaris?

As Siemens said, there is nothing official yet. Take that word whatever way you want, but it's interesting they used it.

 

[AndrewP]

I don't read too much into this - seems common practice that if you loose any large public procurement you take legal action these days - even if its just to find out more about your cpmpetitors' commercial proposals

 

[Roast Veg]

I know that's the vibe, but nothing's official yet surely?
So it's Zefiro vs AGV vs Oaris?

And critically, the Zefiro vs AGV Alstom tenders can't be "rationalised away" without upsetting either Hitachi or the French Government. Not to mention that I'm sure they're great bids in their own right.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As far as I can make out, CAF's high speed platform is only operational in Turkey, with Norway (Oslo airport) about to start, but both are 250km/h max.
Their older Renfe high speed offerings are in conjunction with Alstom (electrics) and again are limited to 250km/h.

None of the 3 platforms has any kind of UK manufacturing record, with the Zefiro bid being a joint German/Italian design based on Frecciarossa 1000.
The UK content of any of the bids is likely to be low, even if the bodyshells are fabricated here.

 

[43096]

As far as I can make out, CAF's high speed platform is only operational in Turkey, with Norway (Oslo airport) about to start, but both are 250km/h max.
Their older Renfe high speed offerings are in conjunction with Alstom (electrics) and again are limited to 250km/h.

The Norway sets have entered service and have since been taken out of service less than a month later after cracks were found. Good to know we're keeping the cheap and nasty option in play for HS2!

None of the 3 platforms has any kind of UK manufacturing record, with the Zefiro bid being a joint German/Italian design based on Frecciarossa 1000.
The UK content of any of the bids is likely to be low, even if the bodyshells are fabricated here.

Well that's not exactly a surprise is it, given the only such trains that have been bought for the UK in recent times have been the Eurostar 374s. Given the quantity of units in that order it didn't come anywhere close to justifying a UK assembly site.