HS2 rolling stock contracts

[Topgun333]

When are the HS2 rolling stock contracts expected to be tendered and who are the likely participants?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi, sometime around 2020?

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if we'll see any of the Japanese manufacturers put in tenders? Though Hitachi seem to be jointly involved with every Shinkansen class

 

[Blamethrower]

Why not just get the Ansaldobread v250s for cheap?

 

[JaJaWa]

Why not just get the Ansaldobread v250s for cheap?

Wow was just researching them and this came up! -

Centro wants a brand new fleet of trams because the older Ansaldo Transporti models have been dogged by unreliability and poor build quality.

The trams have been a figure of fun - described publicly by operator Midland Metro, which owns them, as "rubbish" and having wiring like "plates of spaghetti".

Horrified bosses had discovered each tram was built to a different design, and currently one tram has been taken out of service to be cannibalised for spare parts.

Dec 08, 2005 http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/metros-rubbish-trams-up-for-sale-15863

 

[gordonthemoron]

wonder where the v250s have gone

 

[jopsuk]

I thought there was a big hole in the ground being dug for them?

 

[Saint66]

I thought it was class 319's being used...

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought there was a big hole in the ground being dug for them?

Im sure China could teach them a lot about burying a wreck of a high speed train to try and keep it out of the journalists eye :P

 

[alexl92]

Hopefully not Hitachi but I bet it will be.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Hopefully not Hitachi but I bet it will be.

What's wrong with Hitachi?

 

[Topgun333]

I realise that my OP assumes that HS2 will go ahead of course.

Do posters think that any train manufacturer bidding for the HS2 contract would be required at least to have an assembly factory in the UK rather than importing finished units from abroad?

Also, given there are currently 56 Pendolino units on the WCML made up of 35 11-car units and 21 9-car units, how many units of what composition might be required for HS2? I understand that many of the Pendos will still be required of course on the classic route between London and Glasgow anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Im sure China could teach them a lot about burying a wreck of a high speed train to try and keep it out of the journalists eye :P

How does that differ to the Spanish rail crash?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I realise that my OP assumes that HS2 will go ahead of course.

Do posters think that any train manufacturer bidding for the HS2 contract would be required at least to have an assembly factory in the UK rather than importing finished units from abroad?

Also, given there are currently 56 Pendolino units on the WCML made up of 35 11-car units and 21 9-car units, how many units of what composition might be required for HS2? I understand that many of the Pendos will still be required of course on the classic route between London and Glasgow anyway.

Phase 1 has already passed the second reading stage, and HS2 Ltd have already bought quite a bit of the land they need for the scheme. As all the parties capable of majority government or being the senior partner in coalition, plus both the two parties likely to be the largest minor partners, support the scheme now there's no real chance of it being cancelled. If it were like GARL or EARL, with the opposition to it only an election away from government policy, then there would be much more uncertainty.

The winning bidder would be forced to have a factory within the European Union but it's illegal to force it to then be in the United Kingdom. There's a good chance that Hitachi would win it, given their immense experience with the Shinkansen, and their determination to break in to the European rolling stock market. Once they've got a TSI-compliant product in use in Europe, getting that sold to other markets on the Continent and abroad is going to be even easier.

 

[Camden]

The forthcoming 374s have a top speed of 320kph. Given that the oft stated speed of HS2 is 360kph, I'd be surprised if it wasn't simply a latter day, slightly upgraded edition of this (providing that it lives up to expectations). Why waste money experimenting, when you can basically place a follow on order?

 

[TheKnightWho]

The forthcoming 374s have a top speed of 320kph. Given that the oft stated speed of HS2 is 360kph, I'd be surprised if it wasn't simply a latter day, slightly upgraded edition of this (providing that it lives up to expectations). Why waste money experimenting, when you can basically place a follow on order?

For the same reason we're not ordering Pendolinos instead of the IEP or Networkers instead of Electrostars: speed isn't the only factor.

 

[gordonthemoron]

aren't 374s a bit of overkill as they can run on 3 different voltages?

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, given there are currently 56 Pendolino units on the WCML made up of 35 11-car units and 21 9-car units, how many units of what composition might be required for HS2? I understand that many of the Pendos will still be required of course on the classic route between London and Glasgow anyway.

In their 2012 Economic Case for HS2, the DfT have suggested that the completed "Y" network will require (quite astonishingly, in my opinion) 105 x 200m HS2 captive sets, 68 x 200m classic compatible sets and 15 x 260m classic compatible sets.

An earlier estimate (from 2011) for the Phase 1 network to the West Midlands set out an initial requirement for 16 x 200m HS2 captive sets and 45 x 200m classic compatible sets, but the DfT have admitted in their updated 2012 economic case that they "require more rolling stock to operate the network than [they] had previously estimated."

 

[glbotu]

aren't 374s a bit of overkill as they can run on 3 different voltages?

Well, yes, although they may need to run on 2 voltages (someone else might know what the electrification plan is for HS2), however I assume when people refer to Class 374, what they really mean is the Siemens Velaro product.

I'd assume that whoever won the rolling stock contract, they'd probably do it with a new product, possibly with HS2 envisioned, especially given the size of the contract, although I can see the captives being "off the shelf", because it will be done to UIC gauge.

Does anyone know whether all the rolling stock will be done in one contract, or if they will split it up (say one contract for the CCs and one for the captives).

 

[jopsuk]

As the tendering process is not likely to be for several years yet, it won't be current models that are offered.

Having said that, if Siemens put in an offer it'll likely be an evolution of the Velaro?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, yes, although they may need to run on 2 voltages (someone else might know what the electrification plan is for HS2)

It'll be 25kV AC 50Hz. That's the UIC Technical Standard for Interoperability (TSI) for high speed line electrification

 

[Mikey C]

I imagine that many suppliers would be interested in supplying the trains with a European gauge, but that the trains to British classic gauge will be much less attractive, as they'll be a unique design. Hitachi, having a plant producing the classic gauge 800 and 801 might have an advantage here, especially if the DfT wants one supplier to supply all the trains?

 

[DownSouth]

I imagine that many suppliers would be interested in supplying the trains with a European gauge, but that the trains to British classic gauge will be much less attractive, as they'll be a unique design. Hitachi, having a plant producing the classic gauge 800 and 801 might have an advantage here, especially if the DfT wants one supplier to supply all the trains?

They could well have an advantage, but it would be a fairly slim advantage as the number of sets being talked about is not insignificant in its own right and would be an order worth chasing.

Hitachi might be more interested in chasing the order for the TSI sets anyway. They will have a TSI option by then - Shinkansen loading gauge is larger than TSI, but they are bidding for California HSR which is going with most specifications of the UIC TSIs.

If you want a form guide for the TSI tender, keep an eye on the bidding process for the TSI high speed rolling stock to run on California HSR. Everything about the TSI rolling stock for HS2 will be close enough that the various companies will be able to make just minor changes to their CHSR bid, add an EU-located assembly line if needed and repackage it as a HS2 bid.

As the tendering process is not likely to be for several years yet, it won't be current models that are offered.

I can't imagine there will be too many major shifts in things between now and then, other than Hitachi having their first TSI offering available for off-the-shelf orders by then.

Having said that, if Siemens put in an offer it'll likely be an evolution of the Velaro?

Of course. 'Velaro' is simply the Siemens name for their whole family of high-speed EMUs (similar to Desiro and Nexas for their regional and suburban multiple units respectively) and not just one particular version. Their HS2 bid won't be the Velaro D, the Velaro E, the Velaro RUS, the Velaro CN or the Velaro e320, it will be the next updated version tweaked to meet the HS2 requirements and probably called the Velaro GB or Velaro UK.

 

[samuelmorris]

The forthcoming 374s have a top speed of 320kph. Given that the oft stated speed of HS2 is 360kph, I'd be surprised if it wasn't simply a latter day, slightly upgraded edition of this (providing that it lives up to expectations). Why waste money experimenting, when you can basically place a follow on order?

12 years after the original? Pretty sure by then things will have changed once again...

 

[shaun]

12 years after the original? Pretty sure by then things will have changed once again...

You could've said that about the Class 377 12 years ago, yet the design was used again recently for the LM 172s and 387s. Depends how successful the 374s are in the UK, but since they're based on an ICE I don't see why a variation on them cant be used for HS2.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You could've said that about the Class 377 12 years ago, yet the design was used again recently for the LM 172s and 387s. Depends how successful the 374s are in the UK, but since they're based on an ICE I don't see why a variation on them cant be used for HS2.

I would imagine if it were an ICE variant it would be the ICE4 or whatever the latest one is by 2025.

Having access to a much wider variety of rolling stock, rather than having to order bespoke, will prove a huge cost-saver I imagine.

 

[Topgun333]

Why would there necessarily have to be a manufacturing facility in the EU for the HS2 rolling stock? The HS1 class 395s were built in Japan, for example.

 

[DownSouth]

Why would there necessarily have to be a manufacturing facility in the EU for the HS2 rolling stock? The HS1 class 395s were built in Japan, for example.

There would not necessarily need to be one, but the powers that be may choose to require it in the specification for qualification or include it as a scored component of the competition.

I understand there is a minority viewpoint in Britain (seen on this forum numerous times) that no rolling stock for UK usage should come from outside the EU. It seems bizarre and arbitrary, I can only assume it is just "build British trains in Britain, dammit" slightly evolved to account for the fact that EU law makes it illegal to explicitly restrict a tender of that nature to one particular country.

Has the UK or EU concluded a Free Trade Agreement with Japan and/or South Korea? If so, that may pave the way for any "EU built only" requirement to face a legal challenge from the Hitachi/J-TREC/Kawasaki consortium or Hyundai Rotem if their bids were not to have a significant component of manufacturing in the EU.

 

[edwin_m]

The Class 395s were built in Japan IIRC, and Ireland has imported trains from Japan and Korea, so it's certainly not essential to have an factory in the EU, unlike in America where with a few exceptions trains bought with Federal funding have to be built there.

Part of the criticism is down to the Japanese home market being pretty much 100% supplied from domestic factories. I don't know how much this is down to formal restrictions, "invisible" barriers to entry or is it just that the domestic industry knows the market and builds competitive products?