HS2 - register your support.

[Philip Elliott]

Actually, I reckon that Crewe and Stoke stops will appear within a year of opening. Also, will Glasgow-London be effectively 2tph? One fast and one slow, probably taking in Nuneaton and Milton Keynes. It would be good to see a few extra stops along the Trent Valley, and an effective doubling of the service to Glasgow. The fast might well miss out places like Oxenholme, but I'd hope the slow would start taking in Lockerbie as well.

The 'slow' Glasgow service is expected to be the same service as now with the fast being just Preston & Carlisle. Whilst Glasgow would be 2tph, from a marketing perspective it is still 1tph as the following fast service would probably overtake the slow.

 

[Nym]

Yep, but with some good marketing it could mean that not only is there a regular sub 4hr journey time, potentially 3hr20 when the HS Line reaches Manchester, or has a nice tidy extention to Preston.

The 'slow' would definatly be overtaken. But it all depends on public perception, and the direct links at Nuneaton and Stafford certantly would be nice to have back.

 

[PinzaC55]

Stanley_T said
"At a time when public spending is being cut all over the place to bail out the investment *ankers, HS2 is idiotic. For a fraction of the money:
- electrify the rest of the core system after GWML , MML and XC to Bristol. Then it becomes worthwhile to haul freight electric, massively boosting the economics;
- four track pinch points like Crewe – Weaver Junction, Holme - Peterborough
- resignal the whole system on ETCS, it’s now proven , cheaper and no more cable thefts (and the Pendolinos could run at 140mph nearly all the way to Carnforth)
- reconnect Oxford and Cambridge at last!
- Redo ECML catenary, properly this time
- Put Pacers out of their misery
Etc. etc."

Essentially that is my view. Governments, councils and the like only understand "big & exciting" ideas especially if they are presented in a lavish video and they cost Croesus-like amounts of money, as this scheme does.
Redoing the ECML catenary and restoring some of the missing loops would produce huge benefits but isn't "sexy" so they don't understand it. They would probably claim that they "can see the bigger picture" but unfortunately they can't see the smaller picture at all.

 

[Snapper]

The problem with the above is that it doesn't address the real issues.

The WCML is full after 2024.

Electrification of the GWML is going ahead anyway.

Various schemes to enhance capacity of the network are going ahead already (Nuneaton and Ipswich chords, Hitchin flyover etc).

A rolling programme of resignalling schemes

HS2 will do things that tweaking the rest of the network can't.

 

[Oswyntail]

I support the concept of HS2, though I have reservations.
However, I wondered if anyone has considered the costs of building not a new HS network, but a new freight network as a means of increasing capacity on current lines, linked with a rolling plan of upgrades to traditional routes. This could be built for lower line speeds, but to continental gauge, and it would make sense to have the termini in cheaper out-of-town distribution centres The current system would retain the town-centre selling point. The plan would need to be re-written, perhaps to start with Southampton/Harwich - Birmingham.
Any thoughts?

 

[Hullboy]

I think the concept is great - but unfortunately having close family who are people likelky to be affected by the proposed route have to oppose the idea! Suppose something like this can never please everyone!

 

[Nonsense]

HS2 is idiotic. For a fraction of the money:...

Why is it so easy to believe that there is a big fat pile of cash waiting to be spent, if only someone had some ideas? There isn't.

You could try going to the bank for a mortgage, and then spend the lot on fags and beer, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

 

[PinzaC55]

Why is it so easy to believe that there is a big fat pile of cash waiting to be spent, if only someone had some ideas? There isn't.

You could try going to the bank for a mortgage, and then spend the lot on fags and beer, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

For this scheme the bill is £34 billion (at the moment) which is a very fat wad of cash indeed.
The rationale as expressed on the HS2 website is that the government use taxpayer's money to build it then lease it to private firms.
It will either be a nice little earner (for private fims, built at our expense) or it will be a damp squib with the result that private firms will not want to touch it.
So it is a gamble with our money.

 

[Snapper]

As the private firms would be paying to operate it the Government would eventually recoup the outlay. in the meantime the rest of the country benefits from a national asset the has the power to generate wealth in the wider economy.

 

[Masbroughlad]

HS2 has to happen for the longer term good of the UK.

 

[LE Greys]

As the private firms would be paying to operate it the Government would eventually recoup the outlay. in the meantime the rest of the country benefits from a national asset the has the power to generate wealth in the wider economy.

Forgive me, but wasn't that what they said about Eurotunnel?

 

[PinzaC55]

Forgive me, but wasn't that what they said about Eurotunnel?

And East Coast? And Railtrack? And all the other firms which have been stripped of their franchises?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As the private firms would be paying to operate it the Government would eventually recoup the outlay. in the meantime the rest of the country benefits from a national asset the has the power to generate wealth in the wider economy.

This assumes that you can find private firms who are willing to risk the capital to see if they can make a profit out of it. As we have seen from the ECML at least two have been unable to run what is a long established line.
"Eventually".Possibly. I still don't see why the taxpayer needs to foot the bill to set up a business to be hiked off to private firms? If the line/system will make a profit why don't we keep it and reap the rewards for ourselves?

 

[YorkshireBear]

This assumes that you can find private firms who are willing to risk the capital to see if they can make a profit out of it. As we have seen from the ECML at least two have been unable to run what is a long established line.
"Eventually".Possibly. I still don't see why the taxpayer needs to foot the bill to set up a business to be hiked off to private firms? If the line/system will make a profit why don't we keep it and reap the rewards for ourselves?

Who failed second time didnt only NXEC fail?

I believe it is needed simply because one day we will need it and by the time it is fully needed if it is up running and established it makes life a lot easier. HS1 and eutotunnel were nto initial sucess stories but both now are starting to prove the potential they showed.

 

[PinzaC55]

"Who failed second time didnt only NXEC fail? "

GNER failed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

"Who failed second time didnt only NXEC fail? "

GNER failed.

I thought their parent company failed? not GNER itself who were actually doing well?

 

[PinzaC55]

Parent company/GNER it's all the same. If the net result is you lose the franchise or have to give it up, the impact on the passenger is the same.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Im sorry i disagree. The parent company failed so therefore part of it, in this case GNER, also had to go despite what i believe is it was doing very well and making profit?

Gner didnt cause Sea containers to go bust so GNER did not fail....

 

[LE Greys]

Im sorry i disagree. The parent company failed so therefore part of it, in this case GNER, also had to go despite what i believe is it was doing very well and making profit?

Gner didnt cause Sea containers to go bust so GNER did not fail....

Why did Sea Containers not simply sell the company? If all the members of Rail UK Forums provided £1,000 each, we could have got near being able to buy a decent stake.

 

[YorkshireBear]

girlfriend is in uganda for 6 weeks it is quite apparent that i am going mental..... sorry i got confused....

 

[PinzaC55]

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ebs/research/working_papers/WP_07-04.pdf

 

[Techniquest]

Well I used to be supportive of HS2, it seems like a good idea. I was looking forward to a stupidly fast ride on it in 14 years time.

However, when I read that tickets from London to Birmingham are looking likely to start from £300, I instantly changed my mind. No thanks!

So I'm sorry, but no way am I registering support for this monsterously money-hungry project. I'm not suddenly about to start joining the protesters mind, after all it runs nowhere near me so I have no need to kick up that much of a stink. I just think it's grossly unfair if taxpayers are paying for it and then, for a helluva lot of people, will not be afford to try it out afterwards.

 

[NSEFAN]

However, when I read that tickets from London to Birmingham are looking likely to start from £300, I instantly changed my mind. No thanks!

Where did you read about the fares? I've seen nothing about it. :-?

 

[PinzaC55]

Well I used to be supportive of HS2, it seems like a good idea. I was looking forward to a stupidly fast ride on it in 14 years time.

However, when I read that tickets from London to Birmingham are looking likely to start from £300, I instantly changed my mind. No thanks!

So I'm sorry, but no way am I registering support for this monsterously money-hungry project. I'm not suddenly about to start joining the protesters mind, after all it runs nowhere near me so I have no need to kick up that much of a stink. I just think it's grossly unfair if taxpayers are paying for it and then, for a helluva lot of people, will not be afford to try it out afterwards.

Well said. You see, most of us here are enthusiasts in one form or another and we all want to see the railways do well. But personally I am dubious about the motives behind this project which will cost a mind boggling amount of money, some of which will be mine. We all know that all governments in this country have disliked railways intensely for many years and I don't understand why they are suddenly so keen on this one particular project? As I said earlier the Central Railway project (basically reopening the the Great Central main line) would have been privately financed and so would Arriva's plan to reopen Woodhead but they were both turned down?
When I looked at the HS2 website it seemed that (correct me if I am wrong) the feasibilty study was done in about 9 months!
Sometimes you have to put your accountant's hat on and look at the cost/benefit ratio and I think the money would be better spent somewhere else.
End of rant.

PS here's the Wikipedia page for Central Railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Railway_(United_Kingdom) . In 2006 it's cost was estimated at 8 billion, privately financed and according to them 11 banks were backing the project which was mostly on disused trackbed.

 

[brianthegiant]

However, when I read that tickets from London to Birmingham are looking likely to start from £300, I instantly changed my mind. No thanks!

where does this £300 figure come from?? I can travel from london-paris & back 4 times for that price & that includes hefy Eurotunnel access charges.

As I've said before on the various HS2 threads, whoever gets the franchise to operate services on HS2 will have to compete in a competitive market against WCML, MML, road and in some cases air fares. They will have to set their fares competitively in order to fill the large number of seats on HS2, or they'll go bust. Therefore it's clear to me that HS2 will exert a downward pressure on the cost of travelling between London & the midlands & north by rail.

 

[LE Greys]

where does this £300 figure come from?? I can travel from london-paris & back 4 times for that price & that includes hefy Eurotunnel access charges.

As I've said before on the various HS2 threads, whoever gets the franchise to operate services on HS2 will have to compete in a competitive market against WCML, MML, road and in some cases air fares. They will have to set their fares competitively in order to fill the large number of seats on HS2, or they'll go bust. Therefore it's clear to me that HS2 will exert a downward pressure on the cost of travelling between London & the midlands & north by rail.

I would be very surprised if they charge that much, otherwise they will be decidedly low on passengers. If they do, I'll travel on it once to cover the route, add some highlighter pen to the map, then go back to the WCML.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know where the £300 figure came from either. There are ridiculous open first class fares on trains running on the WCML today, yet the anti-HS2 brigade want the WCML upgraded instead.

Funny how they're probably more than happy to point out those cheap advanced fares on the WCML, when any moron could see that HS2 will have low cost fares too.

 

[Mojo]

And the reason for high fares is to manage demand - after HS2 expect cheaper fares at least in the short-term to encourage more journeys on certain trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Come to think of it, I could do with some cheaper fares on HS1 as well

 

[N Levers]

So, if you haven't registered your support yet - please do

Why??

 

[jon0844]

Come to think of it, I could do with some cheaper fares on HS1 as well

Can you reserve seats on HS1 though? I can't advance book fares on FCC to Cambridge, so the fare is the fare (unless you find a way to combine tickets). SET don't even have FC on HS1 services.

HS1 is really just a glorified commuter service like many other routes. I presume HS2 will be run more like an Intercity service, so fares will vary.