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HS2 - register your support.

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Drsatan

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Perhaps someone can provide a final answer. How many trains are planned to run over the line per hour? I can't really see it being more than currently use the WCML fast lines (twelve) which see stops at Milton Keynes on a regular basis. I know the stopping distance is greater, but if there were intermediate stations, I'd imagine them being on loops off the main line. Certainly with Brackley, where anything stopping there would leave via a different route anyway. Brackley Central is currently a tyre business, and the trackbed is almost unobstructed.

On the LGV lines in France and the Shinkansen lines in Japan, any intermediate stations are served by loops off the main line, or served by branch lines (usually trains run off the high speed line onto conventional track to serve their destination). There's no reason why an intermediate station, as you've suggested, couldn't be built on HS2 to serve the Cotswolds so that, firstly, the NIMBYS would have less of a reason to complain, but so that commuters could be transferred off the WCML onto HS2. I'd also suggest that a branch line should be built off HS2 serving Oxford and Banbury. If that were to happen, that would take pressure off London to Oxford services, although to be fair the same service level on the conventional lines from Oxford to London would probably be retained due to travel between Oxford and intermediate stations along the GWML.
 
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Perhaps someone can provide a final answer. How many trains are planned to run over the line per hour? I can't really see it being more than currently use the WCML fast lines (twelve) which see stops at Milton Keynes on a regular basis. I know the stopping distance is greater, but if there were intermediate stations, I'd imagine them being on loops off the main line. Certainly with Brackley, where anything stopping there would leave via a different route anyway. Brackley Central is currently a tyre business, and the trackbed is almost unobstructed.

Post phase 2 you will have Sheffield/Leeds/Newcaatle/Edinburgh services on top of the West Coast destinations which will fill it up never mind any Heathrow or 'continental' services!
 

LE Greys

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Post phase 2 you will have Sheffield/Leeds/Newcaatle/Edinburgh services on top of the West Coast destinations which will fill it up never mind any Heathrow or 'continental' services!

That definitely sounds like we need a four-track route as far as the junction. I hope that they are leaving enough room in case they need to do this.

I've just noticed that my version of HS2 would have gone very close to where you live, although it would have been right next to the M1. Lutterworth would have got a station on the slow lines, served by XC's direct Reading-Sheffield service.
 
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Lutterworth would have got a station on the slow lines, served by XC's direct Reading-Sheffield service.

Historically, Lutterworth did have a daily call on the old Newcastle - Bournemouth service - "back to the future!"
 

Gareth

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Whilst I support the principle, I have reservations.

For a start, Liverpool is predictably getting a bum deal again. I don't get how Manchester requires a dedicated line, which will stop nowhere else and involves creating a completely new station whilst Liverpool has to make do with using existing tracks as far south as Lichfield. I'd have at the very least expected Liverpool services to divert no less north than Crewe, as with the existing WCML. And why does Manchester, and Birmingham for that matter, need a totally new station? To accommodate longer platforms and the standard gauge for new build high speed trains, you may reply; but why does Manchester or Birmingham need this when Liverpool can do without? Although it's no officially on the agenda, I have a gut feeling that the long term aspiration is that they want direct European connections to these cities and Liverpool and other less loved cities will lose out. If that isn't the case, it seems they're going to cause a lot of tears and headaches getting new alignments and new stations built in these cities, when services can just branch of the north/south HS line when it gets near and use the exising alignments and stations.

Also, is it sensible for London trains to terminate at totally separate stations to all other trains, especially as the commuter rail networks around these cities will seemingly continue to just serve the existing main stations?
 

LE Greys

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Also, is it sensible for London trains to terminate at totally separate stations to all other trains, especially as the commuter rail networks around these cities will seemingly continue to just serve the existing main stations?

No it is not. I understand that there was a plan for 'Birmingham Grand Central', which would have gathered all Birmingham services into one station. Thing is, it is very tricky to rebuild a station without disrupting services. The best answer is probably to put the new station right next to the old one. Curzon Street does not seem very well-placed for that. Manchester Central might work, being right next to Piccadilly, if it would be possible to turn it back into a station.

As for Liverpool services, they certainly should stay on the main line to Crewe, or perhaps somewhere around Euxton Junction. I don't know the area, but is there any room for new, long platforms at Lime Street? I doubt that Central could ever be reopened, and that would separate traffic, which (as you say) is a daft idea. Eventually, we're going to need a spur from the main line, with at least 125 mph capability.
 

YorkshireBear

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You should see the comments on the BBC article.

We should upgrade the MML to 140mph running, we should upgrade the WCML to 6 tracks. Remove first class from all trains. The system will cope fine for the enxt 100 years. Its laughable...
 

sprinterguy

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Perhaps someone can provide a final answer. How many trains are planned to run over the line per hour? I can't really see it being more than currently use the WCML fast lines (twelve) which see stops at Milton Keynes on a regular basis.
The current aspiration once HS2 is open as far as Manchester and Leeds is for 15tph out of London on HS2 outside of the peak:
3tph London - Birmingham (4tph in the peak)
3tph London - Manchester (4tph in the peak)
2tph London - Liverpool
1tph London - "South Yorkshire"
3tph London - Leeds
2tph London - Newcastle
1tph London - Glasgow (2tph in the peak)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know the stopping distance is greater, but if there were intermediate stations, I'd imagine them being on loops off the main line. Certainly with Brackley, where anything stopping there would leave via a different route anyway. Brackley Central is currently a tyre business, and the trackbed is almost unobstructed.

As has now been mentioned in other posts, any intermediate stations on HS2 appear likely to incorporate the platform roads on loops. As such, it seems perfectly feasible to operate a Javelin style semi-fast service tied into the construction of an "Oxfordshire/Chilterns Gateway" station in the vicinity of Brackley which would surely appease at least some of the NIMBYs. Ideally, four tracking really is needed as far as the West Midlands Junction to ensure operational flexibility.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, is it sensible for London trains to terminate at totally separate stations to all other trains, especially as the commuter rail networks around these cities will seemingly continue to just serve the existing main stations?
This is one aspect of the HS2 project that I am dubious about: The total separation of at least some of the HS2 stations from key existing rail interchanges in the cities they serve, when HS2 will rely even more than existing Intercity rail on connections out of the "classic" network to be a success, given the increased catchment areas necessary to support High Speed rail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even with HS2 built the current lines will still be used extensively for passenger services so I'm not convinced there will be significant extra capacity for freight.
Remove the majority of the fastest Intercity trains from a route and it flattens out the range of speeds that the route has to cope with and the number of different flights of trains that have to be accomodated, hence increasing capacity.
 
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Remove the majority of the fastest Intercity trains from a route and it flattens out the range of speeds that the route has to cope with and the number of different flights of trains that have to be accomodated, hence increasing capacity.

Sorry but the West Coast south is not a mixed speed 4-track railway with a large range of speeds but two 2-track railways - one fast only and one that is more mixed. The proposed post-HS2 timetable has a far greater mix of speeds with the result there will be less capacity.
 

sprinterguy

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Sorry but the West Coast south is not a mixed speed 4-track railway with a large range of speeds but two 2-track railways - one fast only and one that is more mixed. The proposed post-HS2 timetable has a far greater mix of speeds with the result there will be less capacity.
Is it not possible that the 100mph regional services will be moved over to the fasts (I presume that these are currently on the slows-never really checked) where platform positioning allows? With the remaining, fewer number of fast services incorporating a greater number of station stops, they will not catch up with the regional services as fast.
 

Squaddie

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Remove first class from all trains.
Why on earth would you remove first class? What good would it do? It's the exorbitant fares paid by first-class business travellers that subsidise everyone else's train journeys, and there are many people - including myself - who would simply never travel by train again if first class were removed.
 
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Is it not possible that the 100mph regional services will be moved over to the fasts (I presume that these are currently on the slows-never really checked) where platform positioning allows?

The two LM fasts - the Crewe & the Leighton Buzzard express are already on the fast lines - you would create capacity by using 125EPS stock for these.

All the trains on the slows are stoppers which would be foolish to fit in between the express services on the fasts hence there will be no additional capacity for freight and in fact less because of more passengers trains pushing out freight north of Preston and in the Manchester area.
 

LE Greys

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The two LM fasts - the Crewe & the Leighton Buzzard express are already on the fast lines - you would create capacity by using 125EPS stock for these.

All the trains on the slows are stoppers which would be foolish to fit in between the express services on the fasts hence there will be no additional capacity for freight and in fact less because of more passengers trains pushing out freight north of Preston and in the Manchester area.

Well, if you remove the trains that would normally zoom through non-stop (because they will be on HS2 instead) and transfer the Pendys normally used to work them to replace 350s, then you have 125 mph suburban services. Move some of them over to the fasts, the Northamptons for instance (although that might cause problems at Roade Junction) then you have extra paths on the slows. I think most intermediate stations have unused fast line platforms.
 
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then you have 125 mph suburban services. Move some of them over to the fasts, the Northamptons for instance

2 of the 3 Northampton services already are - the aforementioned Crewe & Leighton express services:roll: The other one is the one that stops at Hemel, Berko etc. There really is very little scope to move traffic from the slows to the fasts.
 

LE Greys

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2 of the 3 Northampton services already are - the aforementioned Crewe & Leighton express services:roll: The other one is the one that stops at Hemel, Berko etc. There really is very little scope to move traffic from the slows to the fasts.

They do have fast line platforms, don't they? Having looked at Table 66 (which I can't compare properly with Table 65) I'd say that the XX:24 to Milton Keynes and the XX:54 to Birmingham would go over onto the fasts. The Crewe semi-fast and Northampton fast (which I presume is the "Leighton", although I always though it was the "Cobbler") would switch to Pendy operation. Remember, you're losing four expresses per hour, with two more probably adding stops, so two extra suburban trains on the fast should not be too difficult to path. With approximately equal average speed, that's two more freight paths per hour (assuming 75 mph for the freight).
 
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There would be a lot of problems with pathing and you are talking about an overall reduction in service - loss of IC services to Cov/Stoke/Stafford/Crewe
 

LE Greys

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There would be a lot of problems with pathing and you are talking about an overall reduction in service - loss of IC services to Cov/Stoke/Stafford/Crewe

They all run via HS2 using classic-compatible stock.

EDIT: This is the first stage of HS2, where it connects to the Trent Valley.
 

LE Greys

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HS2 is going to serve Coventry? There will also still need to be intercity service on the WCML to serve Milton Keynes.

OK, I've brought Table 65 up again to clarify things. The XX:00 is first stop Stoke-on-Trent, XX:07 is first stop Stafford, XX:30 is first stop Warrington, and XX:40 is first stop Crewe. All four can run via HS2, because they do not serve anywhere south of Tamworth. This will be temporary, but I assume the junction will remain in place, so there will still be the option to route them that way later on. The XX:10 and XX:20 can carry on as normal, as can the current Birmingham services, although I would like to see them increasing the number of calls at Rugby. That gives you four 125mph paths without any reduction in service to any station.

Table 66 services will be able to readjust to exploit these extra paths, plus the spare Pendys freed up by HS2-CC stock taking over many WCML expresses. This will provide an increase in speed, hopefully extra calls at Rugby for expresses and at least two extra freight paths. I'd like to see a Glasgow semi-fast or a Blackpool service as well, but that's probably impossible.
 
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The proposed HS2 services to Manchester will not stop at either Stoke or Crewe (but will stop at Wilmslow:roll:)

The Glasgow service will be RA to Preston.

Stafford will be served by HS2 during phase 1 but I doubt it will following phase 2.

The 'classic compatible' sets will have less seats than a 11-car Pendolino.

If they were building a London - Rugby route with a loop to the Keynes then yes you could create a huge amount of capacity. However they are not and so capacity for new services is only available by a severe reduction in services to existing stations (Cov, Crewe, Stoke etc.)

The XX:10 and XX:20 can carry on as normal, as can the current Birmingham services, although I would like to see them increasing the number of calls at Rugby. That gives you four 125mph paths without any reduction in service to any station.

If you ran 3x390 an hour to Birmingham and 3/4 x HS2 then you would have very very empty trains - services would have to be cut as supply would greatly outnumber demand.
 

sprinterguy

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OK, I've brought Table 65 up again to clarify things. The XX:00 is first stop Stoke-on-Trent, XX:07 is first stop Stafford, XX:30 is first stop Warrington, and XX:40 is first stop Crewe. All four can run via HS2, because they do not serve anywhere south of Tamworth. This will be temporary, but I assume the junction will remain in place, so there will still be the option to route them that way later on. The XX:10 and XX:20 can carry on as normal, as can the current Birmingham services, although I would like to see them increasing the number of calls at Rugby. That gives you four 125mph paths without any reduction in service to any station.

Table 66 services will be able to readjust to exploit these extra paths, plus the spare Pendys freed up by HS2-CC stock taking over many WCML expresses. This will provide an increase in speed, hopefully extra calls at Rugby for expresses and at least two extra freight paths. I'd like to see a Glasgow semi-fast or a Blackpool service as well, but that's probably impossible.
From what I can remember, the remaining Intercity services on the WCML following the opening of HS2 are intended to be:
2tph Birmingham
2tph Manchester
1tph Liverpool

I think there's also mention of 1tph to Glasgow remaining, however I think this would be better terminated at Preston (or maybe Lancaster) to connect into the Glasgow service running off HS2, as there would be precious little space on the WCML North of Preston with two London to Glasgow trains per hour (One WCML and one HS2) and possibly three in the peak.

I'd expect these trains to have additional stops added, and for journey times to be extended somewhere in the region of 15-20 minutes to accomodate the additional station stops, reduce pathing conflicts and encourage passengers making the end to end journeys (Or almost end to end journeys) to make use of HS2. So the stopping pattern for the WCML IC services could look something like this:

Birminghams: Bham Intl, Coventry, Milton Keynes, Euston
Manchesters: Stockport, Macclesfield (Peaks only), Stoke, Stafford, Rugby, Watford Junction, Euston
Liverpools: Liverpool South Parkway, Crewe, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Euston
Glasgows/Prestons: Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Crewe, Rugby, Watford Junction, Euston.

There's plenty of scope for more stops to be made out of any of those services as well. What I'm getting at is that while journey times from Milton Keynes to London may be increased by five minutes and Rugby to London by ten minutes against the current times, this will be compensated by having double the frequency of Intercity trains than at present calling there, reducing waiting times and increasing the convenience of the service.

If you want to travel from say Stoke or Coventry to Milton Keynes, the service will be improved through having an increased frequency of trains, whereas any passengers from Stoke or Coventry travelling to London would be encouraged to travel via HS2 (changing at Birmingham) through the slowing of journey times on the WCML.

There is proposed to be twice the number of Regional semi-fasts in operation: 2tph via the Trent Valley and 2tph running to/through Birmingham. It is these services which I suspect would be operated by displaced Pendolinos (Previous calculations on this forum have estimated that around twenty Pendolinos may be freed up), so could utilise the fast lines at 125mph. Given that there aren't that many doubled up 350 formations on the semi-fasts, this roughly quadruples the capacity of the semi-fasts, using trains twice as long running at twice the frequency. This just leaves the stoppers on the slow lines, which with a regular stopping pattern means that their average speed isn't much greater than that of a 75mph Freightliner.

Sounds like a pretty major range of capacity increases to me.
 
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The proposed timetable is:

1tph Manchester:
Milton Keynes, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport

1tph Liverpoool via birmingham (2 in pek):
Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Internatiional, New Street, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn

1tph Chester (limited service to Holyhead):
Milton Keynes, Crewe

1tph Glasgow :
Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, alternating Oxenholme/Penrith, Carisle

1tph Crewe:
Watford,Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford

any passengers from Stoke or Coventry travelling to London would be encouraged to travel via HS2 (changing at Birmingham) through the slowing of journey times on the WCML.

Coventry - London via birmingham will never be a valid ticket route. Also encouraging people to travel more miles than they need to is hardly "environmentally friendly" ! Add in connection times and it won't be any faster anyway (unless somebody drives instead)
 

sprinterguy

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The proposed timetable is:

1tph Manchester:
Milton Keynes, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport

1tph Liverpoool via birmingham (2 in pek):
Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Internatiional, New Street, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn

1tph Chester (limited service to Holyhead):
Milton Keynes, Crewe

1tph Glasgow :
Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, alternating Oxenholme/Penrith, Carisle

1tph Crewe:
Watford,Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford
It's fascinating to see what the definite proposals are, thanks very much for providing them, I wasn't completely sure what the case would be.

Coventry - London via birmingham will never be a valid ticket route.)
Can you say that with any certainty? I would have thought that Coventry - International - HS2 - London would be positively encouraged following the opening of HS2.

Add in connection times and it won't be any faster anyway (unless somebody drives instead)
The total journey time from Coventry via International and HS2 doesn't need to be any faster than the present Coventry - London journey time: If the current WCML service is slowed down due to an increased number of station stops and to encourage use of HS2, it only needs to match the current journey time to be competitive.

Also encouraging people to travel more miles than they need to is hardly "environmentally friendly" !
Travelling from Coventry to International to access HS2 to London is no different than a current passenger having to travel from, for example, Longbridge to New Street to access a Birmingham to Bristol train.
 
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Can you say that with any certainty? I would have thought that Coventry - International - HS2 - London would be positively encouraged following the opening of HS2.

The total journey time from Coventry via International and HS2 doesn't need to be any faster than the present Coventry - London journey time: If the current WCML service is slowed down due to an increased number of station stops and to encourage use of HS2, it only needs to match the current journey time to be competitive.

Remember there will be two different stations for the airport about a mile apart. Either way you are talking about slower journey times and lower frequnecy for direct trains (direct is what passengers want) - it is a far poorer service and will be the result of £17bn. Value for money, I think not.

Travelling from Coventry to International to access HS2 to London is no different than a current passenger having to travel from, for example, Longbridge to New Street to access a Birmingham to Bristol train

It doesn't stop it being bad for the environment and we should be looking at reducing these types of incidences not increasing them hence the electrification to Bromsgrove which will at least remove the need to go into Brum for Hereford & Worcester passengers.
 

WatcherZero

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I dont really think theres a need for people to be transferred from Classic WCML services to Classic Compatible WCML services at Preston for Glasgow, remember the Classic Compatible will be slower on classic lines because of lack of tilt and limited to 110mph running.
 

LE Greys

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The proposed timetable is:

1tph Manchester:
Milton Keynes, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport

1tph Liverpoool via birmingham (2 in pek):
Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Internatiional, New Street, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn

1tph Chester (limited service to Holyhead):
Milton Keynes, Crewe

1tph Glasgow :
Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, alternating Oxenholme/Penrith, Carisle

1tph Crewe:
Watford,Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford

Now this is interesting. Where do you find this sort of information? I might be able to come up with some sort of new combined Table 65 from this. It might be better to make a few changes, stopping the Glasgow service at Crewe for instance, or even running it via Birmingham and absorbing the current Birmingham-Glasgow service, which would be one way of giving Coventry and extra service to London (Lockerbie, Carstairs and Motherwell are less likely).

Table 66 would be more difficult. I don't know exactly how much the inevitable shake-up will affect what are now London Midland services (if you have more information on that, please post) but this is where the increased speed will be useful. If you end up with 5/6 tph on the fasts, that is still a lower figure than today. Stopping on the fasts at Hemel or Cheddington uses two paths for every stop, but that does not prevent FCC doing exactly the same thing at Potter and Hatfield, and of course Welwyn North (smack in the middle of the peaks sometimes).

I also reckon that the IC West Coast and London West Midland franchises will be merged, making it easier to exchange stock and reducing sub-optimal competition. This will presumably get rid of differential ticketing (I don't think FGW still have differential ticketing at Reading, Didcot or Newbury). That is useful, because it increases flexibility. It would presumably put more suburban passengers on the expresses, which I think we can live with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I dont really think theres a need for people to be transferred from Classic WCML services to Classic Compatible WCML services at Preston for Glasgow, remember the Classic Compatible will be slower on classic lines because of lack of tilt and limited to 110mph running.

That really is a daft decision. If the Germans can produce ICE 3 and ICE T, then surely it must be possible to combine the two to produce a tilt-capable 200 mph train. Omitting tilt to save cost would be completely counterproductive, and I reckon we are going to see tilt go back on.

<EDIT> Yet another internet search has provided absolutely zero information on the proposed HS2 timetable. Where can I get such information.
 
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mallard

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Either way you are talking about slower journey times and lower frequnecy for direct trains (direct is what passengers want) - it is a far poorer service and will be the result of £17bn. Value for money, I think not.

I didn't realise that the citizens of Coventry were responsible for paying the full cost of HS2.

Honestly, to say the whole scheme is not value for money because you can find one group of people that may be disadvantaged by it is silly.

Talk of timetables is in my opinion quite premature. Look at the changes that have been made to WCML timetables in the last 10 years!

LE Greys said:
If the Germans can produce ICE 3 and ICE T, then surely it must be possible to combine the two to produce a tilt-capable 200 mph train. Omitting tilt to save cost would be completely counterproductive, and I reckon we are going to see tilt go back on.

The Germans also have a much larger loading gauge to fit all that equipment into.
 

trainofhope

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Personally I do not think its alot of money per person.

I would like to see the go ahead given for the building of HS2.
 

WatcherZero

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The consultation ends on Friday but the government has just asked HS2 Ltd to solicit bids for a company to act as programme manager for the design stage of the program to be appointed in September.
 

Metroland

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Personally I do not think its alot of money per person.

I would like to see the go ahead given for the building of HS2.

It's actually no more per year than is currently being spent on Thameslink/Crossrail, except it benefits all the country. It's also not dissimilar to the spending on free bus passes for pensioners.

In the grand scheme of things, the money will probably be found from the savings in the rail industry, so the public take on transport/rail will be no more than it is now.

Also £1000 is disingenuous as that does not include private sector support, plus it's an average because some families pay next to no tax, others quite a bit. Plus there is VAT and companies pay a lot more. Fuel duty is this country raises more than the whole of the transport budget, and HSR would benefit air and car travellers. For example better access to airports, plus taking cars off the road, and trucks if the classic network is freed up.

It also doesn't include the expected premiums from the TOC that will operate it.

The project also provides jobs for the economy, and is an investment because that money has to be seen coming back (in multiple)in external benefits. IE employment generated because of better transport, productivity of the workforce etc. This isn't the case in quite a bit of government spending, especially welfare.

And to put that all into perspective, every year the Government spends

Debt interest: £50bn
Public order and safety: £33bn
Housing and Environment: £24bn
Industry, agriculture and employment: £20bn
Defence: £40bn
Education: £89bn
Transport: £23bn
Social Protection: £200bn
Personal social services £32bn
Health: £126bn

So £1-2bn a year spent on HSR to transform the nation's infrastructure is about 1% of the NHS or welfare budget.

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/2011budget_complete.pdf
 
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