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HS2 Plans...

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route:oxford

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As the Scots direct their focus more towards Europe than London surely air travel will be more relevant to them than a high speed connection to London. Westminster politicians are locked into a UK view of things instead of an English-centric one.

Or am I missing something?

It all depends on your view...

Is this UK HS2 - The High Speed tether to the capital of the UK?

Or is it Scottish HS1 - the High Speed route to bring business from England and beyond to the Capital of Scotland?

Besides... The SNP have done all they can to inhibit access to airports by rail. It's possible to take a direct train from Scotland to 3 times as many English Airports than Scottish Airports.
 
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dave12435

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An idea for a central London terminal
Why not have it on Euston Road, why not have them all centrally located?
There is still the old Goods station between St Pancras and Kings Cross that could esily be sympatheitcally turned into a station
It would also provide a link to HS1
The other spce could provide a pedestrian walkway to it over the river with new shops offices etc along the route with utilisation of the gasometer in some way maybe
 

Metroland

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I'm sorry but I just don't see the Scotland connection in all this. Surely that is a historical political thing just as the 'Irish Mail' to Holyhead was. Scotland will have assumed full independence long before this project is finished (or even started I suspect) so who pays for the very long and environmetally damaging Manchester to English Border stretch? As the Scots direct their focus more towards Europe than London surely air travel will be more relevant to them than a high speed connection to London. Westminster politicians are locked into a UK view of things instead of an English-centric one.

Or am I missing something?

Well its not just connections to London, its connections to potentially the rest of the mainland UK. Even if Scotland gains independence, this will still be important.

Actually there were murmurs that the line might not go to Scotland, and it was Scottish politicians that objected to that and wanted it to go all the way.

Environmentally damaging need to be put into context. All human development, from agriculture to water supply, to building cities, to making things, has an environmental impact quite obviously. If we are looking at transport capacity what would you prefer, bearing in mind were not just taking about reducing the need to fly internally? Rationing travel by congestion charging or higher rail fares?

The classic routes can be freed up for commuters and freight, which obviously has an environmental effect. But leaving that aside the current capacity being looked at is 18,000 people per hour per direction. Each lane of a motorway takes approx 1800 cars per hour max, with average loads of 1.5 people each lane moves 2700 people. Yes I know there are buses and trucks making up some of that, but we're looking at overall typical real life passenger loads, and the figure of 2700 is pretty typical. That's actually half the current WCML pendolino load for the fast lines to put it into context. If you wanted to shift 18000 people, we're looking a new 14 lane motorway (taking into account both directions). Spilling this amount of traffic onto outer urban roads, and city centres where there is no space to build more, has serious ramifications for congestion for local journeys too. Roads are still reliant on a finite oil supply, and we are increasingly relying on foreign supplies, often from difficult areas of the world.

Air travel is an option, but its only really relevant on the Scottish stretch. Nevertheless Heathrow airport takes up about the same land space as a new HSL. Flying, even taking into account the carbon cost of building the new line (for which you add aprox 10% to the rail CO2 per pass km with HS1 according the people that have looked into this) is still significantly more polluting, especially taking into account radiative forcing. And of course is even more reliant on petroleum than roads. Airports also tend to screw up road networks around where they are built and you need transfers to get people into city centres.

This is not to say new airports and roads are irrelevant, but rail is ideally suited to this sort of application and should be seriously looked at. People need to look at transport as a whole and stop polarising the debate and acknowledge everything has its part to play.
 
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johnb

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I'm not a clown, I simply live in the unpopulated area that you so eagerly dismiss. I will not benefit from the huge expenditure on this project but am happy to contribute to the English part of it as I in turn benefit from, say London's contribution to the Country's wealth. I think many Scots, especially Mr Alex Salmond, would disagree with your timescale for Scottish independence.

As I see it you have not offered a reasoned response to my seriously posted question yet.

Apologies for the "clown" comment, that was beneath me - however, I'm struggling to work out how a railway line that replaces polluting air and car journeys with clean electric power counts as "environmentally damaging".

Failing to see how you "won't benefit" from this project if you live in northwest England - it'll allow you to go to London or Glasgow much faster, either changing at Preston or Carlisle.

Yes, Alex Salmond would probably disagree with my timetable. Since the vast majority of Scots when asked the question in opinion polls say they don't want independence, he'd be in a minority (the SNP are the largest party at the moment not because of a desire for independence, but because Labour are, as you may have noticed, somewhat unpopular across the UK, whilst the Tories are still sufficiently hated in Scotland that they're not getting the boost from Labour's unpopularity that they've received in England.).
 

Geezertronic

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I think they should have got their finger out with something ages ago because from what I have read on here and other sites, the WCML for one will be full years before HS2 opens anyway. So what happens then?
 

LWB

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@johnb
Thank you for your reply. I queried the need for a Scottish bound HS link based not least, on two local observations;
1. The M6. As has been pointed out this road has already layed an ugly scar across some lovely country. From Preston Southwards the M6/M1 corridor through England is so busy it really needs to be 5 lane in each direction. (not saying it should be!!). North of Preston this great artery linking England to Scotland is almost as empty as the M62 from the A1 to Hull.

2. Oxenholme. I often sit at this WCML station, wholly underwhelmed by the frequency of traffic, either freight or passenger.

Where does the hard statistical evidence come from that asserts the need for a High Speed link this far North.
 
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jon0844

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With the lane discipline in this country (or lack of) a 5-line motorway would see most cars driving in lanes 3-5 as they'd consider these as the faster lanes. You'd still get people queuing in lane 5!

A three lane road is more than adequate for quite large volumes of traffic if people didn't all drive in lane 2 or 3 (and it's the ones that sit in lane 2 that cause the problem in the first place).

In my mind, we'll always need motorways. We'll also need railway lines and airports. When you think of transport as a whole you can actually begin to deal with things, rather than having the motoring/airline/rail lobbies all out trying to secure funding for their projects at the expense of others.

You and me want to have options and pick the best option at the time. The railway will suit me fine for commuting and many journeys around the country - but at times, driving is the only option. Ditto with flying. Sometimes I can fly and hire a car, other times I might cycle.

I'm not sure we'll ever get joined up thinking on transport.
 
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