HS2 plan to join East Coast Mainline at Newark

[Stathern Jc]

Interesting to read on the BBC News Website this morning that one new proposal for HS2 is to connect from East Midlands Parkway to the ECML at Newark.

HS2 plan to join East Coast Mainline at Newark

The scheme would see high-speed trains routed from Nottingham to Newark on their way to the north.

www.bbc.co.uk

Plans to connect the eastern leg of HS2 to the East Coast Mainline are being considered by the government.

The scheme, set out in a government-commissioned document, would see high-speed trains routed from Nottingham to Newark en route to the north.

The option is one of four being considered following plans, announced in November, to terminate the eastern leg at East Midlands Parkway.

Other than extending the HS2 services towards the Northeast avoiding the need to change trains, what are the benefits of this link?
I'm not sure how a significant time advantage can be gained over the more direct line from Kings Cross where Newark is passed in around 70 minutes.

This is one of four options of which the others would enable services to Leeds largely on upgraded existing routes.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Interesting to read on the BBC News Website this morning that one new proposal for HS2 is to connect from East Midlands Parkway to the ECML at Newark.

HS2 plan to join East Coast Mainline at Newark

The scheme would see high-speed trains routed from Nottingham to Newark on their way to the north.

www.bbc.co.uk

Other than extending the HS2 services towards the Northeast avoiding the need to change trains, what are the benefits of this link?
I'm not sure how a significant time advantage can be gained over the more direct line from Kings Cross where Newark is passed in around 70 minutes.

This is one of four options of which the others would enable services to Leeds largely on upgraded existing routes.

Gosh that would be a massive upgrade in journey time improvements over the existing EMR Class 15x / 170 routes !

I suspect most would then choose Newark Northgate over Newark Castle if both stations are within walking distance.

 

[InOban]

Covered in Modern Railways in March. One of the options in a report produced by Mott Macdonald for the government. (Strategic alternatives to phase 2b). published 24th January! Takes time for the general media to catch up.

 

[adamedwards]

One service every 2 hours leaves the ECML at Newark for Lincoln. So if you simply join the ECML north of Newark you don't gain much capacity, which is of course why HS2 wasn't planned to do this. Modern Railways suggested there would then need to be a new ECML to north of Doncaster. In which case why not build the HS2 route already planned?

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect with this option London journeys would still run via Peterborough, but it might speed up cross country journeys between Birmingham and Leeds or the north-east. However going via Manchester is an alternative for these.

 

[JamesT]

If I’m reading what I think is the correct document - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/strategic-alternatives-to-the-hs2-eastern-leg then it suggests London - Leeds would be 4 minutes slower via HS2 and a Newark chord than an upgraded ECML.
But presumably the advantage of routing services that way is you can remove ECML services that don’t stop South of Newark and free up paths for more services that will stop at those stations.

 

[Nottingham59]

what are the benefits of this link?

The benefits are that it makes the biggest city in the East Midlands a through station for HS2 traffic, and there is space to the East of Nottingham to quadruple the line towards Carlton. Though Carlton centre itself would be more problematic. Quadding to the West of Nottingham in Beeston is difficult.

But going via Newark to get to Leeds is an awfully long way round. Personally I think it would be better to re-quad the Erewash Valley, and get to Leeds via Rotherham. Or quad the line through Sheffield from Dore to Meadowhall.

And the cost of building the leg via Newark, in that document, seems to me to be a gross underestimate.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although the BBC story is new, this isn’t actually “new news“ is it? Didn’t it come up as a proposal late last year with all the other weird changes to HS2?

 

[Grimsby town]

One service every 2 hours leaves the ECML at Newark for Lincoln. So if you simply join the ECML north of Newark you don't gain much capacity, which is of course why HS2 wasn't planned to do this. Modern Railways suggested there would then need to be a new ECML to north of Doncaster. In which case why not build the HS2 route already planned?

The government doesn't appear to be considering the political capital its expending with any new alignment. Its spent years putting residents through the stress of losing landing, homes and potential disruption and now it wants to do that to a completely new set of people to save a couple of billion. They should stick with the initial HS2 eastern leg plan.

 

[Halifaxlad]

This is the Newark option for those interested, taken from the reported as linked in post 6.

 

[Nottingham59]

The government doesn't appear to be considering the political capital its expending with any new alignment.

These ideas are to allow the politicians to boast about how much they are doing to "level up" the north, without actually spending any money. If it's too expensive to build a new alignment from Trent Junction to Leeds, then it's going to be too expensive to build a new alignment from Nottingham to Doncaster via Newark.

Personally, I'm expecting even the Eastern stump from Birmingham to EMD to be at risk when Red Wall loses its electoral importance and politicians find another slogan to replace Levelling Up.

 

[James90012]

Realistically Nottingham by itself surely wouldn't be able to sustain 2tph High Speed trains plus legacy MML trains. If you can extend through and serve Doncaster etc then even if the journey time to London isn't especially fast you can spread capacity over HS2 and the ECML, and finally give Nottingham good connectivity towards York to boot.

 

[andreading]

The option would make sense if there is through running for services from South West and South Wales onto HS2 at Birmingham who's journeys would be quicker.

 

[NoRoute]

This development reminds me of the old quote 'A camel is a horse designed by a committee' which seems rather apt given how HS2 seems to be panning out.

 

[swt_passenger]

The option would make sense if there is through running for services from South West and South Wales onto HS2 at Birmingham who's journeys would be quicker.

There is no track connection, and there are no current plans for such through running.

 

[matacaster]

Isn't the problem here similar to that of Bradford on NPR - not on a direct or reasonably flat route? From HS2, Derby, Nottingham Sheffield and Doncaster cannot all be on a straight northerly route to Leeds or Doncaster, they are spread out east /west and so no even passably straight route actually can serve them all or even most. I'd be inclined to reinstate the old midland route from Sheffield to leeds via Normanton and straighten out the wiggly bits (this is I believe the technical term)

 

[Nottingham59]

I'd be inclined to reinstate the old midland route from Sheffield to leeds via Normanton and straighten out the wiggly bits (this is I believe the technical term)

If that's the route via Rotherham, Wath-upon-Dearne, Cudworth and Normanton then I agree with you.

On the maps, the trackbed seems almost completely intact and quite straight enough for fast running. It's only 33 miles from Sheffield to Leeds, so a High Speed TGV-style alignment is really not needed.

 

[matacaster]

If that's the route via Rotherham, Wath-upon-Dearne, Cudworth and Normanton then I agree with you.

On the maps, the trackbed seems almost completely intact and quite straight enough for fast running. It's only 33 miles from Sheffield to Leeds, so a High Speed TGV-style alignment is really not needed.

Yep, that's the one! Glad we agree!

 

[Stewart2887]

How come they're allowed to start building when they have no clear idea where its going?

 

[Roast Veg]

How come they're allowed to start building when they have no clear idea where its going?

Building what, exactly? Phase 1 and 2a? Their business case is buoyant in isolation, the (clearly speculative) proposal is an added bonus to realise some of the lost benefit from scrapping phase 2b without the high cost.

 

[Nottingham59]

Their business case is buoyant in isolation

The business case of the first phase of HS2 was dire in the extreme. If I recall correctly, it had a BCR of just 0.9 until the Wider Economic Impacts were included. These pushed the BCR up to 1.3, which is piss poor by any standard, and less than many other rail investments that could have been made instead.

 

[snowball]

How come they're allowed to start building when they have no clear idea where its going?

Because an act of parliament was passed authorising phase 1 in 2017, and another for phase 2a last year.

 

[HSTEd]

Whilst reuse of old alignments might have emotional appeal, they are likely to be engineering nightmares with structures of obsolete design and unsure state of repair.

Much better to just build a new alignment that goes where you actually want it to go, rather than mess around trying to force an old alignment into the same role.

 

[andreading]

I didn't say it does make sense I said IF then it would make sense. I don't get it

 

[snowball]

Whilst reuse of old alignments might have emotional appeal, they are likely to be engineering nightmares with structures of obsolete design and unsure state of repair.

Much better to just build a new alignment that goes where you actually want it to go, rather than mess around trying to force an old alignment into the same role.

The route is well aligned for speed and in places more free from development than surrounding areas. I don't think anybody is suggesting re-use of existing structures. The last new alignment tried for HS2 led to going through a new housing estate at Mexborough. West and South Yorkshire are not like the territory through which much of phase 1 passes.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Re HSTEd's comment:
Not very much of the previous routes / alignments could be upgraded to offer a "High Speed" capability, and probably not a high proportion much over 100 mph.
A fresh start seems a logical choice.

 

[Mikw]

Not going to happen.