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HS2 or Southwest improvements?

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irish_rail

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I'm interested to learn how you think we could reduce Birmingham to Leeds times by about an hour by changes to XC services. Even 30 minutes would be a significant step.
I'm not talking an hour. But why is it so important to have such fast journeys in the north but not in the south?
One minute we are told hs2 is all about capacity, the next it's all about speed. I wish they could make their minds up.
If capacity is the issue then I'd do as you suggest and order some 7 car 802s for XC and cascade the voyagers away.
 
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class26

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I'm interested to learn how you think we could reduce Birmingham to Leeds times by about an hour by changes to XC services. Even 30 minutes would be a significant step.
It`s also worth pointing out that by speeding up Brum - Leeds we also speed up Brum - Nottingham, Sheffield, York & Newcastle plus London - all those destinations.
That`s a lot of wins
 

quantinghome

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Right so in your eyes speeding up birmingham to Leeds is an imperative, yet london to the south west should be quite happy to have slightly extended journey times. Make up your mind. Or are you one of these who thinks the north is so incredibly hard done by no matter how much money is spent up there.

The two things are completely separate. Improving the North's services does nothing to stop further upgrades to the south-west; I'd be all for it. It's not either/or.

But if you want to compare:

London-Plymouth by rail: average speed 75mph.
Leeds-Birmingham by rail: average speed 57mph.

As others have pointed out London-Plymouth has seen significant rail investment in recent years. Leeds-Birmingham connects the 3rd, 4th, 9th and 10th largest urban areas, extending to others, but hasn't seen any improvement since the botched 'Operation Princess' near on 20 years ago.

And for the record I'm sure reducing journeybtimes Birmingham to leeds would he quite achievable by speeding up xc services, and getting rid of all the dwell times, plus stops at the likes of burton on trent.
Operation Princess tried to knock 20 minutes off the journey and failed miserably.
 

HSTEd

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As much as I would love to completely rebuild the Cornish main line, it would be a very expensive project.
 

py_megapixel

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No. Half of those could be solved using full length trains. To pick out one example about capacity birmingham to the north west. As long as 4 car voyagers are plying this route any case for increased capacity need is laughable. Let's start running trains of full length wherever they are needed. Rather than throwing money at a problem that may not exist.
If you're claiming that @quantinghome has made suggestions which are pointless because the trains are too short, I suggest you hop over to this recent thread and see how many platform extensions would be needed just to run 6-car units on some of the most crowded commuter routes in the North.

Or, how about curtaling all of the Scotland to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance services at Bristol Parkway and changing people onto GWR services to the South West there, so as to free up some Voyagers for longer trains between Birmingham and Leeds? Oh, and platform extensions would be needed there as well.
 

class26

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As much as I would love to completely rebuild the Cornish main line, it would be a very expensive project.

Sorry to sound ignorant but what are the reasons for the low speeds on the Cornish main line ?
I understand about signal spacing but the line has just been resignalled so i would hope that something might have been done at that point.
There are also a few bendy parts but other main lines are also fairly bendy but support higher speeds.
i travelled the entire line last summer and it seemed as if parts could have higher speeds or am I missing something ?
 

irish_rail

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(Quote)
@quantinghome has made suggestions which are pointless because the trains are too short, I suggest you hop over to this recent thread and see how many platform extensions would be needed just to run 6-car units on some of the most crowded commuter routes in the North.

Or, how about curtaling all of the Scotland to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance services at Bristol Parkway and changing people onto GWR services to the South West there, so as to free up some Voyagers for longer trains between Birmingham and Leeds? Oh, and platform extensions would be needed there as well.
[/QUOTE]
Why on earth would you want to do that. It already takes 3 and a half hours to get from plymouth to Birmingham, slowing the journey down even further would be daft.
If you want additional voyagers I'd suggest cutting the xc network back to plymouth in the south and edinburgh in the north.
 

irish_rail

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Sorry to sound ignorant but what are the reasons for the low speeds on the Cornish main line ?
I understand about signal spacing but the line has just been resignalled so i would hope that something might have been done at that point.
There are also a few bendy parts but other main lines are also fairly bendy but support higher speeds.
i travelled the entire line last summer and it seemed as if parts could have higher speeds or am I missing something ?
I'm mainly referring to plymouth east, not cornwall which is slightly less point in raising line speeds due to the proliferation of stations.
East out of plymouth the line speed is generally 60mph to newton abbot with some 55mph running and a short stretch of 80mph on Hemerdon.
I've been told it would be quite doable to raise it to 75mph most of the way, though the money isn't there and I suspect now it would be even less likely. It is quite bendy in places but no more so than other parts of the network where linespeed is 75mph.
 

py_megapixel

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Why on earth would you want to do that. It already takes 3 and a half hours to get from plymouth to Birmingham, slowing the journey down even further would be daft.
If you want additional voyagers I'd suggest cutting the xc network back to plymouth in the south and edinburgh in the north.
OK, but that's not actually much of a saving in distance/time.
Why not cut it back to Taunton/Exeter instead? They have loads of trains; it would be trivial to change onto another service to Plymouth.
 

The Planner

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And for the record I'm sure reducing journeybtimes Birmingham to leeds would he quite achievable by speeding up xc services, and getting rid of all the dwell times, plus stops at the likes of burton on trent.
I wish people would generally take a moment to think of how this is achievable without making broad brush comments such as these. I get its speculative but genuinely think about it. What replaces the Tamworth and Burton stops? The long dwells aren't there for a laugh. At major stations you will need 2 minimum, they are longer because it makes little difference to being stopped than if you just end up catching something else up. Binning off Burton would save 3 minutes, not massive chunks of time.
 

py_megapixel

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I wish people would generally take a moment to think of how this is achievable without making broad brush comments such as these. I get its speculative but genuinely think about it. What replaces the Tamworth and Burton stops? The long dwells aren't there for a laugh. At major stations you will need 2 minimum, they are longer because it makes little difference to being stopped than if you just end up catching something else up. Binning off Burton would save 3 minutes, not massive chunks of time.
Yes I sometimes wonder this kind of thing as well.

Are XC management there going "well we could get all the passengers on and off at Cheltenham in 30 seconds but let's just stick a 2 minute dwell in for the hell of it" :s ?
 

Ianno87

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Why on earth would you want to do that. It already takes 3 and a half hours to get from plymouth to Birmingham, slowing the journey down even further would be daft.
If you want additional voyagers I'd suggest cutting the xc network back to plymouth in the south and edinburgh in the north.

Cutting to Plymouth doesn't save a Voyager anyway; all the Penzance/Newquay extensions are in marginal time.

Dropping the two-hourly Glasgow extension would save 1 Voyager; Dundee/Aberdeen are again marginal time, so no saving.
 

Purple Orange

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There appears to be a fair bit of heat on this thread. The issue to me seems to be a direct result of there being no through link in Birmingham between HS2 and the line to Bristol, but as it stands I’m wondering what the viability is for XC services are at all post HS2. It poses several thoughts. Let’s take Manchester-Plymouth as an example here:
  • Birmingham will always be a bigger market for passengers from the south west than Manchester (same with the Leeds service), but HS2 does not impact this market at all.
  • With Birmingham-Manchester traffic taken away (which forms the most significant volume of passengers on a XC train leaving Piccadilly, what is the viability of running a service all the way to Manchester?
  • There is probably still a market for an hourly Manchester-Stockport-Macclesfield-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham service.
    • So why wouldn’t that continue on to Bristol?
    • It is probably not the quickest journey path between Manchester, Bristol and the south west, but the hourly service would still be there.
 

Ianno87

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There appears to be a fair bit of heat on this thread. The issue to me seems to be a direct result of there being no through link in Birmingham between HS2 and the line to Bristol, but as it stands I’m wondering what the viability is for XC services are at all post HS2. It poses several thoughts. Let’s take Manchester-Plymouth as an example here:
  • Birmingham will always be a bigger market for passengers from the south west than Manchester (same with the Leeds service), but HS2 does not impact this market at all.
  • With Birmingham-Manchester traffic taken away (which forms the most significant volume of passengers on a XC train leaving Piccadilly, what is the viability of running a service all the way to Manchester?
  • There is probably still a market for an hourly Manchester-Stockport-Macclesfield-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham service.
    • So why wouldn’t that continue on to Bristol?
    • It is probably not the quickest journey path between Manchester, Bristol and the south west, but the hourly service would still be there.

My view is that XC services between Birmingham and Manchester (and Birmingham-Leeds) effectively already serve intermediate markets (e.g. Stoke, Derby) far better than they serve the end-to-end flows, due to the poor journey times of XC compared to road.

So HS2 probably generates more new demand end-to-end than it does abstract existing rail demand. So actually leave XC looking something like it is, perhaps with a couple more intermediate stops north of Birmingham using the bit of capacity that is freed up from end-to-end traffic being removed.
 

BayPaul

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...would get plymouth to london closer to 2 and a half hours and thus make plymouth a more attractive place to visit and locate business in. ... rather than a phenomenally expensive vanity project that will suck yet more money into London.
So speeding up journey times from London to Plymouth benefits Plymouth, but speeding up journey times from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Scotland etc etc only benefits London? You can't have it both ways!

I too would love to have better services down to the South West, but not at the expense of HS2. What the SW should be pushing for, IMHO, on HS2 is a connection (via a relatively cheap reversal at Curzon Street, and perhaps loco-hauling of high speed trains, before people start talking about the cost of through stations and wiring Birmingham to Penzance) from HS2 to the Birmingham - Bristol line, as discussed on several other threads. This would give much better capacity and journey times from the SW to the north, without the need to change in Birmingham, and would be genuinely massively beneficial to the whole SW.
 

The Ham

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I'm not talking an hour. But why is it so important to have such fast journeys in the north but not in the south?
One minute we are told hs2 is all about capacity, the next it's all about speed. I wish they could make their minds up.
If capacity is the issue then I'd do as you suggest and order some 7 car 802s for XC and cascade the voyagers away.

It's always been about capacity:


Screenshot_20200723-164838.png

(Letter from 13th February 2009, with extract showing priorities in order with capacity listed first).
 

6Gman

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My "logic" is that I'm sick of money being pumped into the same places whilst others are left behind. When will the south west get a piece of the pie? When will our connectivity with the rest of the country improve?

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you had new trains for the Paddington services in the past few years?

That's "a piece of the pie" surely?
 

irish_rail

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Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you had new trains for the Paddington services in the past few years?

That's "a piece of the pie" surely?
Yes but all we get from the customers is complaints about how hard the seating is , and confusion over which portion of a 10 car train they need to be sat in. New isn't always necessarily better.
 

class26

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I'm mainly referring to plymouth east, not cornwall which is slightly less point in raising line speeds due to the proliferation of stations.
East out of plymouth the line speed is generally 60mph to newton abbot with some 55mph running and a short stretch of 80mph on Hemerdon.
I've been told it would be quite doable to raise it to 75mph most of the way, though the money isn't there and I suspect now it would be even less likely. It is quite bendy in places but no more so than other parts of the network where linespeed is 75mph.

Thanks, In was aware of the speeds east of Plymouth as there was a youtube cab ride of the HST`s last day to Paddington from Plymouth. And yes, it is very twisty between Plymouth and N Abbott! Out of interest, how many minutes would be saved if you could get up to 75 mph as you suggest ?t
 

Ianno87

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Yes but all we get from the customers is complaints about how hard the seating is , and confusion over which portion of a 10 car train they need to be sat in. New isn't always necessarily better.

Pre-Covid, didn't seem to affect passenger numbers.... perhaps the silent majority of actual real passengers actually prefer the new trains over drafty old, lethargic HSTs?
 

Purple Orange

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My view is that XC services between Birmingham and Manchester (and Birmingham-Leeds) effectively already serve intermediate markets (e.g. Stoke, Derby) far better than they serve the end-to-end flows, due to the poor journey times of XC compared to road.

So HS2 probably generates more new demand end-to-end than it does abstract existing rail demand. So actually leave XC looking something like it is, perhaps with a couple more intermediate stops north of Birmingham using the bit of capacity that is freed up from end-to-end traffic being removed.

I can’t see the 2 tph remaining as they are between Manc and Brum with additional intermediate stops. A couple more stops would possibly be Sandwell & Dudley, Congleton, Stone and Cheadle Hulme. Adding those to the 5 existing stops would make a very very slow journey time and I suspect people on the intermediate stations would go another route, via Crewe or make a change at Curzon St, Piccadilly or start at Manchester Airport. In that case, I’d stick with 1 XC tph from Manchester to the Southwest, with the other path given to local commuter services.
 

coppercapped

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SNIP
As regards journey times being slowed down by OOC stops, that is partly true. It depends on your destination. OOC will offer many more connectional opportunities than Paddington, so for many regions of London (and beyond) OOC is better suited for faster connections than Paddington. Since a good number of the Crossrail trains will be turning back at OOC (and thus starting empty from there), the canny commuter will prefer to change there t get a seat.

SNIP
In any case, the connection to Crossrail will be more convenient at OOC so it will actually speed up door-to-door journey times for many parts of London and Heathrow. So if you are that concerned about journey times you should be supporting the case for GW trains stopping at OOC.
SNIP
However, the passengers that benefit from and Old Oak Common stop do perceive a disproportionate benefit from the "it's just a hop over the bridge at Old Oak" or " I can now jump straight on the Overground" compared to "I've got to traipse around Paddington"
I find it very difficult to agree wholeheartedly with any of these statements supporting the introduction of a stop for all the Great Western long distance services at the future Old Oak Common station.

One has to go back a step. The main reason for the station at Old Oak Common was to avoid overloading the TfL services at Euston (Tube, sub-surface and bus) with the number of passengers expected to use HS2 by off-loading some of these passengers earlier at Old Oak Common and distributing them from there through central London by Crossrail. The Old Oak station also had the advantage of offering easy access to Heathrow as a replacement for the proposed Heathrow spur off HS2.

This is where the tail started to wag the dog. The 2012 document by Atkins Demand and Appraisal Report for HS2, one of the documents supporting the HS2 case in its course through Parliament includes some numbers showing expected flows on HS2 to Greater London, Heathrow and 'not London'. Table 4.3 gives the breakdown:

to/from Greater London125,500
to/from Heathrow1,100
to/from non-London21,400
Total HS2 passengers using London Stations148,000

As a sanity check ORR figures for station entrances and exits show that Paddington has about 38 million per year, thats roughly 100,000 per day.

The document goes on to say, with respect to HS2 passengers:
4.2.16 The interchange station planned at Old Oak Common would have different impacts on these passengers depending on where they are travelling to or from. Some would see improved access times as a result of the interchange station, particularly those travelling to and from West London. However those who do not use the interchange station will experience journeys that are 4 minutes longer as a result of stopping at Old Oak Common.

In the context of the greatly reduced journey times to the West Midlands and points North made possible by HS2 an extra four minutes is probably acceptable. It is equally true however that stopping GWR trains at Old Oak Common will also extend their journey time by four minutes bringing the Reading to London time back to what it was before the IET trains were introduced - there being no equivalent line speed increase on the GWR. It's not just Reading passengers who will be affected but every long distance passenger on the Western going to and from London.

When the 802s were introduced in the west country in 2018 GWR made great play of the reduction in the London to Penzance times by 'up to 14 minutes' with the introduction of the new timetables with smaller gains for places further east. Stopping these trains at Old Oak Common will now lose 4 minutes of these gains - to what purpose? The only extra connections possible - apart from Crossrail which can also be made at Paddington - are to the Overground lines to and from Richmond and Clapham Junction to the south and to Willesden Junction round to Stratford (E) which can anyway be reached more quickly by Crossrail! In total these routes are probably not a large market for passengers from Neath or Newton Abbot.

No mention has been made anywhere of any onward connections at Old Oak Common from the GW to Euston on HS2 for the British Library, St. Pancras and King's Cross so I assume these will not be possible. I also cannot see any long distance GWR passenger wanting to change at Old Oak to a Crossrail train as the connection at Paddington is very simple. It involves a short walk along the platforms - which has to be done anyway - a right turn at the end and an escalator down to the Crossrail platforms. Changing at Old Oak will involve two escalators - one up and then one down.

It is clear that the Atkins document is mainly concerned with the local traffic to west London as Figure 5.3 marks an area between the Greater London boundary and Tilehurst extending down to about Blackwater on the Guildford line - in other words essentially the five local authority areas from Slough down to Reading - showing where passenger benefits of between £10 million to £15 million in 2037 are expected to accrue. No benefits - pedantically this means the expected passenger benefits are expected to lie between plus and minus £5 million - are shown outside this area.

It's difficult to see on the scale of the Atkins map but it would appear that it also includes some four local authority areas in Hertfordshire, though curiously not South Bucks around Slough. These nine areas are the 'not London' areas and the 21,400 passengers have to be divided between them. Pro rata that's about 2,400 per local government area. If we assume that 2,400 passengers to and from Reading will use fast trains to and from Old Oak the rest of the passengers (some 9,600) will use Crossrail or the GWR outer- suburban trains west of Old Oak.

As I said, the tail is wagging the dog. The assumption ten years ago was that passengers off HS2 to Heathrow would use the HEx service which would call additionally at Old Oak. The traffic density on the Mains has now reached such a level that if the HExs stop, everything must also stop. And, as I see it the only additional passengers that would use the long distance trains are the 1,200 travelling to Reading and the 1,200 coming back (making the 2,400 flow). Averaged over an 18 hour day and some 10 trains per hour this equates to some 7 HS2 passengers per train.

Even if this number was 20 per train it means the other several hundred in each train will have a four minute longer journey.

This is, to my mind, a nonsense and I'm with irish-rail on this matter.

The simple answer is to let those HS2 passengers wanting to reach Heathrow use Crossrail and let the long distance trains run non-stop. This can't be any sort of imposition - after all, many people on this forum think that HEx will go away anyway when Crossrail starts running.
 
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The Ham

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In theory, it would be possible to reduce stops on the express services of there really was going to be that much of a concern.

In reality there's a need for a new line heading west out of London, especially if we're looking to reduce our carbon emissions which means needing more capacity for more passengers.

As such is suggest that the building of a High Speed line to prove that rail can meet and exceed passenger numbers is the very thing which is needed. As once it's running well then there's a better car for more lines like it to be built.

With a high speed line running out from London until (say) about Salisbury/Westbury that's going to provide a much faster journey time than anything currently possible, especially if that doesn't stop at Reading.
 

Mikey C

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As an aside would Cornish mainline speeds have benefited from tilting trains? A bimode 395/221 type train?
 

irish_rail

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I find it very difficult to agree wholeheartedly with any of these statements supporting the introduction of a stop for all the Great Western long distance services at the future Old Oak Common station.

One has to go back a step. The main reason for the station at Old Oak Common was to avoid overloading the TfL services at Euston (Tube, sub-surface and bus) with the number of passengers expected to use HS2 by off-loading some of these passengers earlier at Old Oak Common and distributing them from there through central London by Crossrail. The Old Oak station also had the advantage of offering easy access to Heathrow as a replacement for the proposed Heathrow spur off HS2.

This is where the tail started to wag the dog. The 2012 document by Atkins Demand and Appraisal Report for HS2, one of the documents supporting the HS2 case in its course through Parliament includes some numbers showing expected flows on HS2 to Greater London, Heathrow and 'not London'. Table 4.3 gives the breakdown:

to/from Greater London125,500
to/from Heathrow1,100
to/from non-London21,400
Total HS2 passengers using London Stations148,000

As a sanity check ORR figures for station entrances and exits show that Paddington has about 38 million per year, thats roughly 100,000 per day.

The document goes on to say, with respect to HS2 passengers:


In the context of the greatly reduced journey times to the West Midlands and points North made possible by HS2 an extra four minutes is probably acceptable. It is equally true however that stopping GWR trains at Old Oak Common will also extend their journey time by four minutes bringing the Reading to London time back to what it was before the IET trains were introduced - there being no equivalent line speed increase on the GWR. It's not just Reading passengers who will be affected but every long distance passenger on the Western going to and from London.

When the 802s were introduced in the west country in 2018 GWR made great play of the reduction in the London to Penzance times by 'up to 14 minutes' with the introduction of the new timetables with smaller gains for places further east. Stopping these trains at Old Oak Common will now lose 4 minutes of these gains - to what purpose? The only extra connections possible - apart from Crossrail which can also be made at Paddington - are to the Overground lines to and from Richmond and Clapham Junction to the south and to Willesden Junction round to Stratford (E) which can anyway be reached more quickly by Crossrail! In total these routes are probably not a large market for passengers from Neath or Newton Abbot.

No mention has been made anywhere of any onward connections at Old Oak Common from the GW to Euston on HS2 for the British Library, St. Pancras and King's Cross so I assume these will not be possible. I also cannot see any long distance GWR passenger wanting to change at Old Oak to a Crossrail train as the connection at Paddington is very simple. It involves a short walk along the platforms - which has to be done anyway - a right turn at the end and an escalator down to the Crossrail platforms. Changing at Old Oak will involve two escalators - one up and then one down.

It is clear that the Atkins document is mainly concerned with the local traffic to west London as Figure 5.3 marks an area between the Greater London boundary and Tilehurst extending down to about Blackwater on the Guildford line - in other words essentially the five local authority areas from Slough down to Reading - showing where passenger benefits of between £10 million to £15 million in 2037 are expected to accrue. No benefits - pedantically this means the expected passenger benefits are expected to lie between plus and minus £5 million - are shown outside this area.

It's difficult to see on the scale of the Atkins map but it would appear that it also includes some four local authority areas in Hertfordshire, though curiously not South Bucks around Slough. These nine areas are the 'not London' areas and the 21,400 passengers have to be divided between them. Pro rata that's about 2,400 per local government area. If we assume that 2,400 passengers to and from Reading will use fast trains to and from Old Oak the rest of the passengers (some 9,600) will use Crossrail or the GWR outer- suburban trains west of Old Oak.

As I said, the tail is wagging the dog. The assumption ten years ago was that passengers off HS2 to Heathrow would use the HEx service which would call additionally at Old Oak. The traffic density on the Mains has now reached such a level that if the HExs stop, everything must also stop. And, as I see it the only additional passengers that would use the long distance trains are the 1,200 travelling to Reading and the 1,200 coming back (making the 2,400 flow). Averaged over an 18 hour day and some 10 trains per hour this equates to some 7 HS2 passengers per train.

Even if this number was 20 per train it means the other several hundred in each train will have a four minute longer journey.

This is, to my mind, a nonsense and I'm with irish-rail on this matter.

The simple answer is to let those HS2 passengers wanting to reach Heathrow use Crossrail and let the long distance trains run non-stop. This can't be any sort of imposition - after all, many people on this forum think that HEx will go away anyway when Crossrail starts running.
Best post I've read in a long time. I'd submit that to a railway magazine or similar if I where you :)
 

irish_rail

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If we are to expect 4 minute stops at OOC surely this is going to cause queues of trains heading in from the west , especially when there is disruption and trains are the slightest bit out of sequence. I imagine drivers will start seeing double yellows around Hayes and then experience a slow approach into OOC , further ruining the improved journey times that the IET fleet has provided us.
 
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