HS2 Lichfield to Manc

[steamdrivenand]

An interesting discussion on the intricacies of HS2 in and out of Manchester but has anyone got any thoughts on the bit between Lichfield and outer Manc?

Will it go via Stoke or via Crewe? Will it parallel WCML tracks or strike out independently?

When are the first route indications due to be published?

SDA

 

[Geezertronic]

One would assume that north of Lichfield, the line would split into two with one going up the East towards Leeds and one going up the west towards Manchester (as per the Y split).

I've personally not heard anything at all about how this would be achieved but would be interested to hear anything too?

 

[swt_passenger]

One would assume that north of Lichfield, the line would split into two with one going up the East towards Leeds and one going up the west towards Manchester (as per the Y split).

I've personally not heard anything at all about how this would be achieved but would be interested to hear anything too?

The split towards the northeast should be just north of the 'delta junction', ie where the line from Birmingham round to the north joins the through route, because the route is proposed to follow the M42 corridor towards the Nottingham area.

Lichfield is really too far round to the northwest.

The odd thing is though, that the original drawings in March 2010 showed exactly where this junction would be, (roughly where the M42/M6(Toll) junction is, IIRC) but it is missing from the latest drawings...

 

[Padav]

@steamdrivenand:

HS2 Lichfield to Manc

An interesting discussion on the intricacies of HS2 in and out of Manchester but has anyone got any thoughts on the bit between Lichfield and outer Manc?

Will it go via Stoke or via Crewe? Will it parallel WCML tracks or strike out independently?

When are the first route indications due to be published?

I've been trying to discover just that information during the last six months with little success - let's just say that DfT are keeping silent on this particular aspect of HS2 at present - I'm assuming they don't want another set of protestors adding their voices to the already very vocal anti-HS2 brigade located along the proposed route of HS2, phase 1

The only relatively definite information I've managed to glean is that Manchester Airport will almost certainly figure as a station on the NW.England leg of phase 2, plus a city centre Manchester station - it's also pretty certain that the approach into city centre Manchester will be tunnelled.

You only need to look at a map of Manchester and its environs to realise that the approach to the Airport will almost certainly have to come from the West, particularly when you bear in mind that the leg of HS2 from Lichfield up to NW England will link back into the WCML somewhere around Warrington Bank Quay.

Other than that, everything on HS2 phase 2 is pretty vague at present - I don't think we're likely to see anything concrete until the HS2, phase 1 consultation process, which last for twelve weeks (starts in a fortnight or so?) is complete.

 

[Invincibles]

If I was planning the route I would be looking at following the WCML from Colwich through Stoke.

The advantages of doing this are:

• Stoke could have a loop station (most trains passing non stop) but is a good market to London
• There is land through the A500 corridor alongside the existing lines that could be used
• It would have real benefits to Stoke and surrounding areas, as I am sure the current Virgin service is doing
• Stoke to Manchester Airport is an underserved market now and would be the logical next stop of a high speed "stopper"
• Stoke has good connections to Derby (upgrade this line) and Nottingham, Birmingham and Staffordshire
• Stoke to Liverpool can be done easily enough through Kidsgrove and Crewe for classic compatible or connections.

Stoke to Manchester Airport I am a little less sure of, I imagine there will be a fair bit of Cheshire NIMBYism to contend with. That would be true on any route though.

I could see a HS station at Stoke on the current site with the current station forming "Southbound" and new platforms being built to the west to form "Northbound". non stop trains would use the current northbound platform and a corresponding face outside the roof. (Platform faces on these lines would not see many trains but would simply provide operational flexibility) A bay for trains to Derby (and on the preserved lines around Leek if possible) would be provided with some work there.

Potentially work to install HS would see the new northbound platform built, the running line slewed across then the rest done. This should mean minimum disruption to classic trains while work was being done.

 

[steamdrivenand]

A bay for trains to Derby.

It all sounds sensible IVS, though what the citizens of places like Rugeley and Congleton would have to say about it passing through their towns I'm not sure. Maybe for places like that they could leave the classic alignment and go round the edge, although you're teetering on the edge of the Pennines around there with some of them and possibly v expensive engineering.

At present the route to the East Midlands terminates at Crewe rather than Stoke and it got me thinking that if your developing the classic run on an axis across the country why not take it straight through from say Liverpool, then Chester, Crewe, Stoke and on across Staffs, rather than a bay end at Stoke? From the Derby/Notts end you could press on via P'boro., Cambridge and Ipswich to give easy C to C capability. Those routes are really tortuous at present.

 

[Invincibles]

You will get complaints wherever it runs and I was thinking parallel to the WCML between Lichfield and Stoke should give the least resistance (Stone would have to be bypassed).

From Stoke I was thinking of heading towards the M6 then roughly following the planned route of the M6/A556/M56 avoidance road (possibly building both at the same time) to get to Manchester Airport and onwards north. Congleton and Macclesfield represent too much of an engineering challenge. I was just thinking that the trains from London to Manchester could be routed along there as they currently are with relatively minor works in places. It is my belief that actually a large percentage of the HS market would use Manchester Airport as a parkway rather than using Piccadilly for the fast train to London (evidenced by people parking at Stockport for London).

Taking the Derby trains through would be good, and while you have the engineers in then some grade seperated junctions could be installed to get them on to Crewe. Crossing HS on the level is not an option though and Stoke station would be on the level.

 

[steamdrivenand]

From Stoke I was thinking of heading towards the M6 then roughly following the planned route of the M6/A556/M56 avoidance road (possibly building both at the same time) to get to Manchester Airport and onwards north. Congleton and Macclesfield represent too much of an engineering challenge. I was just thinking that the trains from London to Manchester could be routed along there as they currently are with relatively minor works in places. It is my belief that actually a large percentage of the HS market would use Manchester Airport as a parkway rather than using Piccadilly for the fast train to London (evidenced by people parking at Stockport for London).

Taking the Derby trains through would be good, and while you have the engineers in then some grade seperated junctions could be installed to get them on to Crewe. Crossing HS on the level is not an option though and Stoke station would be on the level.

Thinking it through it does really point up the fact that Crewe as a major junction happened as a happy historical accident and that Stoke represents a better geographic and economic 'hub'.

I guess it could work if it described a wide arc from Stoke towards the M6 and round to Alderley and then parallel to the A34. Mind, there are some deep valleys around that area as evidenced by the current classic route viaducts. Taking the route as far north west as the A556 might be going too far for access to Manc. but it if it got the new road built it would be excellent.

Going OT I've just thought that the HS lines need renumbering and should be like the roads. So HS1 should become HS2 and the current HS2 should be HS4. The Lichfield/Manc line should be HS5 and the Lichfield/Leeds HS6 with HS1 reserved for an East Anglian line and HS3 for a south coast one.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think it was a happy accident, the town grew around the rail junction, otherwise it would just be another rail junction in the middle of nowhere with a village/small town close by.

 

[steamdrivenand]

It was a happy accident that the railway passed through the tiny hamlet of Crewe and that another railway happened to alight upon that particular point as the place to join up.
There was no real significance to the positioning except for the attitudes of local landowners. Just like a lot of the early rail development there was no overall planning or strategic thinking, it was just get a line in between two profitable points asap.
Our village (just south of Crewe) was developing nicely with an historic market and several three storey buildings in the centre, until mid 1800's everything stopped. Crewe's development went on from there and ours ended.