HS2 Leeds

[deltic]

There has been some debate about HS2 to Manchester but unless I have missed it nothing on the route to Leeds.

The government has asked HS2 to look at the options for a station in the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds.

Any views on where it should go in each location? Especially in the East Midlands - should it serve Nottingham, Derby or East Midlands Parkway (assuming Leicester is too far south)

 

[LE Greys]

East Midlands Parkway seems the most likely, somewhere near the existing station to allow for easy connections. I also imagine a station in Sheffield and access to the current one in Leeds so that trains can run through to York after electrification (which needs to happen anyway)

If it were up to me, I would run it right through the middle of Nottingham and do a major rebuild of the Victoria Centre to allow Nottingham Victoria to reopen, with the Nottingham-Grantham line diverting back there as well, and possibly a connection to Ruddington. The idea would be to reopen the section of the Great Central north of there and divert Liverpool-Norwich services that way, as part of the plan for separating LNER and LMS services in the Midlands, but just reopening Victoria would be enough.

We can but dream.

 

[WatcherZero]

I was under the impression East Midlands would be in the centre of the Derby-Nottingham-Leicester triangle of towns not serving any in particular, I guess the Airport would be conveniant location for the parkway then being located in the same spot.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I was under the impression East Midlands would be in the centre of the Derby-Nottingham-Leicester triangle of towns not serving any in particular, I guess the Airport would be conveniant location for the parkway then being located in the same spot.

I don't why anyone hasn't thought of Toton for this? Very close to the A52 and M1 and loads of railway owned land which at the moment is largely redundant. Toton is also roughly halfway between Derby and Nottingham. I would be surprised if many people travelling to EMA took the train. I would love to be proved wrong though.

 

[WatcherZero]

I agree I doubt may would take the train for it, it is a small airport however I was just pointing out it was in a good location for a parkway being perfectly served by the road network and perfectly equidistant with space for a large car park and station. Toton isnt a bad suggestion but I imagine they would want it along the M1 corridor in a less built up area not along the existing rail lines in an urban area. Junction 25 of the M1 intersecting the A52 perhaps close by and not in a built up area?

 

[142094]

There is quite a lot of land to the west of Leeds station that could be used, although there would still be the same problem of the double track towards Marsh Lane and Neville Hill.

 

[gordonthemoron]

how about Trent Junction for the East Midlands?

 

[Philip Elliott]

how about Trent Junction for the East Midlands?

An area that isn't accessible by road? Nice

If you put a station in the Long Eaton / Toton area then London - Derby or Nottingham will be longer via HS2 than on MML. Only useful for people with cars wanting to go to London:roll:

 

[tbtc]

I also imagine a station in Sheffield

The "easy" way (from a logistical sense) to serve Sheffield would be to run from Chesterfield down the Rother Valley (past Beighton, Catcliffe) towards Rotherham. There's a line which does this (used on the diversions from Chesterfield, joining the Lincoln - Sheffield line at Woodhouse, then coming in via Darnall).

However, this wouldn't serve the city very well. The upside is that you could divert the line to serve a station at Blackburn Meadows by Meadowhall. You have a station at Meadowhall, the supertram, the M1, a large population in Rotherham/Sheffield close by...

Depends on whether HS2 is going to be compromised by slowing to get into cities on a slower alignment - you could squeeze it into Sheffield/ Manchester/ Leeds, but there's a "speed" price to pay - you'd need to have fairly "conventional" speeds for those sections.

A station at Meadowhall wouldn't be as good as one in Sheffield, but it'd be better than nothing and I'd rather that HS2 integrated with existing stations (even if they aren't the "city" station)

 

[j0hn0]

There are quite a few old lines running into leeds so i think the approaches will be easy enough. Just whre on earth can you build a new station? Running into existing station wouldnt do anything to help capacity constraints.

However, i suggest using the old central viaduct and build a station there. Last time i looked there were just big holes in the ground

 

[sprinterguy]

An area that isn't accessible by road? Nice

If you put a station in the Long Eaton / Toton area then London - Derby or Nottingham will be longer via HS2 than on MML. Only useful for people with cars wanting to go to London:roll:

I’m actually with gordonthemoron on this one: I would like to see a High Speed rail line that links into the existing rail network, as well as having suitable facilities for road access, rather than ignoring one for the other. I agree with a station in the Trent Junction triangle, with HS2 on the upper deck, and platforms on some or all of the arms of the classic line junction beneath. This would give good access to HS2 basically equi-distant from Derby and Nottingham, as well as from Newark, Grantham, Lincoln and Leicester. It would not be beyond the wit of man to build a road link from the M1, and possibly from the west from the A6005 to give a “Long Eaton bypass”, to the new site over what is predominantly flat, easy terrain. I can’t imagine that a faster journey time from the East Midlands HS2 station to Derby and Nottingham could be found by locating the HS2 station anywhere else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As much as I’d like to see a HS2 South Yorkshire railhead in the Sheffield area, I think that building such a station would require an alternating “skip stop” HS2 service would be required to see any journey time benefits over such short distances as would be seen with stops at East Midlands-South Yorkshire-Leeds. For example, a train with stopping pattern London-Birmingham International-S.Yorkshire-Leeds alternating with a Birmingham Curzon-East Midlands-Leeds stopping pattern service.

I concur closely with tbtcs’ idea for HS2s approach to South Yorkshire, on a route running roughly parallel to the “old road” through Staveley and Beighton towards Rotherham, but with a station within easy reach of the M1/M18 Junction. IMO there is very little chance of the intermediate stations on HS2 serving city centres, as the winding approach alignments that would be needed in urban areas would be unsuitable for non-stop trains passing through, and hinder journey times for even the trains that are booked to stop there. HS2 should be expected to cater for catchment areas far larger than that specific to a single city with regards to the capacity of HS2 and to help its’ viability: A “Sheffield” station would not be expected to be devoted to Sheffield, but rather would serve the greater South Yorkshire area, encompassing Sheffield, Rotherham, Chesterfield, Barnsley and Doncaster.

As Leeds is intended to be the terminus of one of the arms of HS2, it should see a city centre station, though where exactly is beyond me. AFAIK, neither Leeds nor Manchester have large swathes of land in the city centre that lend themselves to a HS2 station as obviously as Birmingham’s Curzon Street location does.

 

[LE Greys]

There are quite a few old lines running into leeds so i think the approaches will be easy enough. Just whre on earth can you build a new station? Running into existing station wouldnt do anything to help capacity constraints.

However, i suggest using the old central viaduct and build a station there. Last time i looked there were just big holes in the ground

Central was always a terminus, so it would be tricky to run through to York. It might be better to divert EC services to Central, along with many local trains and put the new trains through City.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I concur closely with tbtcs’ idea for HS2s approach to South Yorkshire, on a route running roughly parallel to the “old road” through Staveley and Beighton towards Rotherham, but with a station within easy reach of the M1/M18 Junction. IMO there is very little chance of the intermediate stations on HS2 serving city centres, as the winding approach alignments that would be needed in urban areas would be unsuitable for non-stop trains passing through, and hinder journey times for even the trains that are booked to stop there. HS2 should be expected to cater for catchment areas far larger than that specific to a single city with regards to the capacity of HS2 and to help its’ viability: A “Sheffield” station would not be expected to be devoted to Sheffield, but rather would serve the greater South Yorkshire area, encompassing Sheffield, Rotherham, Chesterfield, Barnsley and Doncaster.

You've completely contradicted yourself there - how will that connect into the rail network? How do you expect people to get there in the first place and how are people arriving there on an outward journey wishing to go to Sheffield meant to get to their final destination? Has no-one heard the concept of a loop line?

 

[sprinterguy]

You've completely contradicted yourself there - how will that connect into the rail network? How do you expect people to get there in the first place and how are people arriving there on an outward journey wishing to go to Sheffield meant to get to their final destination? Has no-one heard the concept of a loop line?

Yeah, it’s true that this idea is heavily flawed in relation to linking into the local rail network, against my preferences. Adding a loop line into Sheffield, or any other suitable South Yorkshire location capable of serving as a rail interchange, is going to increase the cost of the project. My proposed station would serve as more of a parkway station than the rail hubs at Trent Junction and Leeds, drawing in those with car access. It could still be connected into the local public transport network through local bus services, or potentially an extension of the Sheffield Supertram, as is being considered for the Midland Metro to serve the Birmingham International HS2 station (Which does admittedly have a much larger gravity of attraction, with the airport, NEC, HS2 and classic rail, than the “South Yorkshire Parkway”HS2 site I’m proposing). Linking into HS2 using public transport doesn’t have to solely rely on heavy rail, although if it was really desired, at an outside chance some of the local services between Rotherham and Sheffield could be diverted away from the Meadowhall route to run over the “old road”, running Rotherham-Catcliffe-Woodhouse-Sheffield (New spurs required at Rotherham & Woodhouse), connecting into the HS2 station which would be located adjacent, and near Junction 33 on the M1.

 

[gordonthemoron]

back to Leeds, to rejoin the ECML, the trains should go via Harrogate and up the now removed Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton line

 

[Invincibles]

I suppose I see HS2 as the end of the MML, which should be handed over to being basically the equivalent of the Southampton service from Waterloo. This would mean electrification, desiro equivalents and a very regular service linking in to Thameslink. There is no reason to have any more stops in London trains, just take the Nottingham and Sheffield stoppers through to Brighton.

The marginal benefit is only really worthwhile in Nottingham and Derby and so I think that Trent might be a very good location for a station. I also thought Toton when I saw the title, but it would put a lot of pressure on the existing road network. Wherever the station is sited I would seriously look at a Nottingham metro extension to Derby to pass through the site.

At Sheffield again it will be an avoiding job cutting between Sheffield and Rotherham. While Meadowhall is an obvious location it would be hard to find the land (apart from perhaps the old marshalling yard that there is there).

Leeds Central would form an ideal terminus, which is all I believe Leeds should be. Services going north should follow the new M1-A1 link road and serve a station in that area (with a classical link back in to Leeds centre if possible). Certainly from there classical links to the old ECML and Hull would be possible.

I have said before though that HS should be seen as an opportunity to really rethink the rail map, especially as the old one was drawn around the industrial heartlands that have long since vanished.

Any HS train from Leeds to Scotland (Which would be well into the future) would have to stick to the old lines. I think that as there is no service regularly running that route at the moment this is not a big problem. The main market for Leeds HS will be London and eventually Manchester.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
If you look at the map the only north <--> south route that is a) straight(ish) and b) not built on near Nottingham is through Toton yard.

There has been comment in the local press here from an apparantly leaked report that the station would be on the site of the derelict East Toton yard (currently where the 60's are dumped).

This site has good road connection - right next to the A52 and only 1 mile from the M1. Constriction would be straightforward. There is also the benefit that the main development that would be affected is a school so there will be no difficulties in rejigging that to fit the new access roads.

The new extension to the Nottingham tram is due to terminate at a park and ride alongside the next A52 roundabout. The only thing between the end of the tram line and an extension to the Toton HS2 station is, again, the school. That's not going to be a problem to build through...

I don't think that connectivity is high on the agenda. But it wouldn't be too tricky to build a few platforms on the conventional line and introduce a stop there for Nottingham <--> Sheffield service.

As to further north, I don't know those areas well enough...
Cheers,
Jason

 

[gordonthemoron]

there is also talk of building a new station at Ilkeston and having a new service from there to Nottingham, that could also serve an HS2 station at Toton.

It would be interesting to know how they are going to build HS2 though long eaton though

 

[LE Greys]

I don't think that connectivity is high on the agenda.

And therein lies the government's mistake. Our privately-built web of track to link small towns needs new lines built to link major cities, but as part of the exiting network rather than new lines. Otherwise, we might as well never have narrowed the broad gauge, never rationalised down from two stations to one and never standardised on 25kV electrification. HS2 should be an addition to the current network, not part of a new one.

 

[j0hn0]

And therein lies the government's mistake. Our privately-built web of track to link small towns needs new lines built to link major cities, but as part of the exiting network rather than new lines. Otherwise, we might as well never have narrowed the broad gauge, never rationalised down from two stations to one and never standardised on 25kV electrification. HS2 should be an addition to the current network, not part of a new one.

Not sure I agree with you entirely there. Whilst I think imrpoved connectivity to existing lines is important, it doesnt really solve the capacity problems on the approaches to city centr stations. Travel from frankfurt to cologne and there is a huge amount of the journey traversing existing tracks to get to the city centres, making ice trains almost always late. I lived in germany for a year and probably caught one on time ice

I think that a similar approach to birmingham would work for leeds also, taking it through the exisitng station just isnt possible with the current capacity issues

Build a seperate network yes, buut making city centre approaches on existing tracks would negate the need for euro loading gauge on the hsl. Our trains are way too small, lets take advantage building all new lines so that we can future proof capacity issues by having the capability to run double deck trains all the way to the city centres

 

[Nym]

Well, IIRC looking at Leeds Station area, theres space to the West where an old station used to be...

Here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...4948,-1.552806&spn=0.007757,0.027595&t=h&z=15

Rebuild a station just to the north of Whitehall Road, and/or steal some car park and have the HS2 lines run through the main Leeds City station by guage improvments of platforms erm. 8, 9, 11 and/or 12 for the use of HS2 trains. Would mean loosing the centre road between them but if the track was raised slightly it would allow EU Guage trains to fit in without modifying the platforms

The extra platforms at the other two sites would compansate the loss of these two platforms. And still leave 4 track for through services and freight, electrification to York so Classic Compatable trains can continue up the ECML, when HS2 is extended north to Newcastle, a leeds avoider could be cheaper then widening a certain viaduct and clearing it to EU Guage, while thinking on that topic, would it be possible to run a normal EMU with EU Guage hight wires without significant modifications?

 

[Kneedown]

there is also talk of building a new station at Ilkeston and having a new service from there to Nottingham

They've been "umming" and "aaahing" about that one for years.
Would be good though. It's a sizeable place with the Erewash line running straight past it.

 

[Christopher125]

And therein lies the government's mistake..

Its not that simple. The whole rationale for HS2 is about providing extra capacity, and you cant have *more* services if HSL services use existing paths along the way - it has to be operated seperately.

If the network grows along routes where there's more spare capacity it will probably make more use of them - but south of Manchester and Leeds it is effectively a pair of new fast lines.

Chris

 

[deltic]

Its not that simple. The whole rationale for HS2 is about providing extra capacity, and you cant have *more* services if HSL services use existing paths along the way - it has to be operated seperately.

If the network grows along routes where there's more spare capacity it will probably make more use of them - but south of Manchester and Leeds it is effectively a pair of new fast lines.

Chris

I agree - my understanding is that HS2 will not run on any classic lines on the routes into Manchester and Leeds. The trains will be running at up to 60mph when the last carriage leaves the platform and hence the whole route from start to finish is designed for high speed running. So all infrastructure including stations will be new - maybe built along side existing stations but separate.

To get into Leeds is highly complex due to the river and existing rail viaducts that HS2 will probably have to go over so you end up with a very expensive super-elevated station.

As has been suggested to serve Sheffield, Nottingham and or Derby is probably best done by a spur off the main route - running 200mph+ trains through city centres is not going to work - nor is a park and ride site miles out of the city centres if they are not linked into the classic network.