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HS2 infrastructure discussion... NOT whether the line should be built or not...

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Waddon

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Hi,

Seeing as the other thread about the plans for HS2 has become a discussion/argument on whether the line should be built or not, how about a seperate thread discussing details of the route itself, based on those plans?

Heres a question I asked on the other thread, which got buried between arguments

"It looks from the plans that there is a triple track tunnel between Euston and Old Oak common... am I reading that right?

edit: and... a link onto NR at Northolt, between the canal Bridge and the Chiltern lines junction?"

PS If you want to debate whether it's built or not post on the other thread where debate is waiting for you! this one is about discussing the route and infrastructure...
 
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sprinterguy

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"It looks from the plans that there is a triple track tunnel between Euston and Old Oak common... am I reading that right?

edit: and... a link onto NR at Northolt, between the canal Bridge and the Chiltern lines junction?"

Yes it looks like you've read those maps right. First time I've looked at the London approach in detail. It seems as if there could be a long passing loop from Old Oak Common to Euston for up trains. Useful if platform space is at a premium and two trains approaching Euston are running a couple of minutes apart.

And there does indeed seem to be a link onto NR at Northolt. Emergency or engineering use only I would imagine.

I'm also going to agree with Geezertronic that HS2 should be four track to Birmingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How much of HS1 is double track? Does HS2 really need to be 4 tracked until it reaches Birmingham?

Given the density of traffic that will be operating on HS2 if and when the complete Y-network is up and running, I’d say it would be advisable. It would also allow more freedom for a potential “Oxfordshire Gateway” station somewhere in the Oxford-Milton Keynes commuter belt, which I think would be a useful feature.
 

Waddon

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I'm a bit fuzzy as to where the rolling stock depot is going to be, I would have thought they'd use the former Eurostar site in West London but the plans don't seem to show any link...
 

tbtc

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Given the density of traffic that will be operating on HS2 if and when the complete Y-network is up and running, I’d say it would be advisable. It would also allow more freedom for a potential “Oxfordshire Gateway” station somewhere in the Oxford-Milton Keynes commuter belt, which I think would be a useful feature.

Agreed.

Plus it'd mean engineering should be a lot simpler (a two track line could remain open)
 

sprinterguy

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Agreed.

Plus it'd mean engineering should be a lot simpler (a two track line could remain open)

There could likely be a flaw in that otherwise perfectly sound reasoning, in as much as HS2 could follow European (French?) High Speed line rulings that engineering work can only be carried out to the permanent way whilst no trains are operating (Unless that only applies to twin track lines? I dunno, not my area of expertise). Though perhaps it would be possible if TSRs were put in place on the two operational tracks, so that trains weren’t belting past every few minutes at almost twice the current maximum speed limit.
 

Invincibles

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I would normally be of the opinion that HS2 should be 4 track, but then having looked at the Chinese system I am not sure it does.

The Shanghai to Hangzhou route is basically the equivalent of London - Birmingham here. It is built with 2 tracks but has loops at the stations and the stopping trains are timed with 6 minutes at each station to allow 1 or 2 fasts through.

Similar arrangements on HS2 should make it suitable for the purpose.

However, if we are really thinking about future expansion then having the land available for 4 track would be wise.

I just do not advocate building a 4 track railway at this time because I believe that it will not be long before technology demands a new style and the 4 track will never have been fully utilised. By having parallel land maybe a 2 track new line can be added in time.

Certainly the stations need to be loops, with more than one platform face in each direction.
 

sprinterguy

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I would normally be of the opinion that HS2 should be 4 track, but then having looked at the Chinese system I am not sure it does.

The Shanghai to Hangzhou route is basically the equivalent of London - Birmingham here. It is built with 2 tracks but has loops at the stations and the stopping trains are timed with 6 minutes at each station to allow 1 or 2 fasts through.

Similar arrangements on HS2 should make it suitable for the purpose.

However, if we are really thinking about future expansion then having the land available for 4 track would be wise.

I just do not advocate building a 4 track railway at this time because I believe that it will not be long before technology demands a new style and the 4 track will never have been fully utilised. By having parallel land maybe a 2 track new line can be added in time.

Certainly the stations need to be loops, with more than one platform face in each direction.

Well thought out post. You’d certainly hope that any intermediate stations would include a loop in each direction. The plans for the new Birmingham NEC station, whilst quite basic, suggest that such an approach will be followed.
 

Geezertronic

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The Birmingham International/Interchange station has loops looking at the plans (which appear to show a 4 platform station as well?) but I'm not sure how long the loops are because if they are not long enough, a stopping train slows the one behind it down (same as Milton Keynes Central and in particular Rugby on the WCML).
 

The Planner

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Length isn't the whole issue, turnout speed is. If the turnout speed is lower than the mainline speed then approach release signalling will be in place. Get the turnout speed to the loops the same as the mainline and then it shouldnt be an issue.
 

Class377/5

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Hi,

Seeing as the other thread about the plans for HS2 has become a discussion/argument on whether the line should be built or not, how about a seperate thread discussing details of the route itself, based on those plans?

Heres a question I asked on the other thread, which got buried between arguments

"It looks from the plans that there is a triple track tunnel between Euston and Old Oak common... am I reading that right?

edit: and... a link onto NR at Northolt, between the canal Bridge and the Chiltern lines junction?"

PS If you want to debate whether it's built or not post on the other thread where debate is waiting for you! this one is about discussing the route and infrastructure...

The 3rd tunnel is the link from HS2 to HS1 which they decided is going to be a single track tunnel.

If I remember rightly, on the plans I saw it was the blue tunnel (*think* the other two were red and green).

Wasn't the plan for the intermediate station to have four platforms but the loop starting something like a mile away from the station so that capacity wasn't affected allowing trains to slow on the rather long loops?
 

Ploughman

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There could likely be a flaw in that otherwise perfectly sound reasoning, in as much as HS2 could follow European (French?) High Speed line rulings that engineering work can only be carried out to the permanent way whilst no trains are operating (Unless that only applies to twin track lines? I dunno, not my area of expertise). Though perhaps it would be possible if TSRs were put in place on the two operational tracks, so that trains weren’t belting past every few minutes at almost twice the current maximum speed limit.

As long as the pairs of tracks are running Up and Down and not Up / Up, Down / Down
Then as long as the "Ten foot" is of sufficient distance there should be no problem with staff or equipment working on one pair of tracks.
For staff working on the ground a physical site barrier will be required as a demarcation similar to temporary site rigid barrier in use now.
Open lines may be required to have a reduced speed limit alongside site.

For machine working that may be more of a problem for 360 degree machines as restrictions will apply even with slew limiters. Think max outreach plus 6 metres at least for working alongside open lines. (This happens now)
Any on track machine such as tampers etc should be ok.
 

vtiman

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the link from hs1 to hs2 should be double track. a single connection would be a true false economy that would cost more and cause disruption when it was eventually built.

double track throughout the link would allow more through domestic and international services. less euston terminating trains would mean that the redevelopment there need not be as expensive or damaging locally.

it would be useful to survey passengers coming into all london mainline termini to determine their final destinations. most people get off the train at euston etc because that is where the train stops. if hs trains from birmingham distributed their passengers through london at old oak and stratford, this would allow easy transfer to crossrail and eurostar.

suggestions have been made to construct a link onto crossrail from the wcml for local services to run through. more services could continue southwards also to give connection from north and south london at old oak. it has also been suggested that the watford dc lines are run as lul services. these proposals would also reduce the number of trains terminating at euston.

I believe that hs2 should be viewed primarily as an extension to the existing network to increase capacity. calling it high speed seems to deflect some commentators who zero in on the high speed aspect only. perhaps it should be renamed hc2 i.e. high capacity.
 

Geezertronic

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the link from hs1 to hs2 should be double track. a single connection would be a true false economy that would cost more and cause disruption when it was eventually built.

double track throughout the link would allow more through domestic and international services. less euston terminating trains would mean that the redevelopment there need not be as expensive or damaging locally.

It would be interesting to find out how many paths could be fitted along the single track link to see if that was indeed true (bearing in mind it will have to accomodate bi-directional paths)
 

mumrar

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Length isn't the whole issue, turnout speed is. If the turnout speed is lower than the mainline speed then approach release signalling will be in place. Get the turnout speed to the loops the same as the mainline and then it shouldnt be an issue.
I'm confident that the loops will be sufficently fast enough so as to permit full acceleration/deceleration at the entry and exit points. I'm not an expert in TDM, but as the line won't be classically signalled then approach control wouldn't come into it anyway I think.
 
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How much of HS1 is double track? Does HS2 really need to be 4 tracked until it reaches Birmingham?

From the Guardian:

"... the original 370-mile route that links the capital with Lyon and which is near saturation point due to its popularity. Speaking in London last year, Guillaume Pepy, president of the SNCF (the French national rail authority) said that not building a four-track railway had been a mistake."
 

Peter Mugridge

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It would be interesting to find out how many paths could be fitted along the single track link to see if that was indeed true (bearing in mind it will have to accomodate bi-directional paths)

I believe it is capable of taking a train every ten minutes, which implies three paths each way in every hour.

And I do also agree it should be double track - this every 10 minutes capacity may be fine for the early years, but it surely will not be after a decade or so.
 

Striker

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It would be interesting to find out how many paths could be fitted along the single track link to see if that was indeed true (bearing in mind it will have to accomodate bi-directional paths)


I think one per hour would be the most you could expect avoiding Euston, so a single track is more than enough.
 

Geezertronic

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I think one per hour would be the most you could expect avoiding Euston, so a single track is more than enough.

You say that but would it be one per hour in each direction? Also I wonder whether services would operate from/to Birmingham, Manchester, and others to the continent which would bump up the number of paths? I don't believe there are any details out there about what services would be offered via HS2 to the continent yet and their frequencies but it would certainly be good to know
 

Striker

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You say that but would it be one per hour in each direction? Also I wonder whether services would operate from/to Birmingham, Manchester, and others to the continent which would bump up the number of paths?

I would say one per hour in each direction at the most. I really don't see a big market for travel from the Midlands and further north to the continent. It will be tiny in comparison to the numbers of passengers terminating in London, so they're not going to tie up paths on HS2 with trains bypassing London. There's just too much competition from the low cost airlines.

It is extremely likely that the fares on HS2 are going to carry a premium over the current WCML fares which are already vastly more expensive than the fares on continental high speed lines. And I mean VASTLY more expensive. For as long as this is the case, the train will remain uncompetitive with air. People are expecting we'll be like the French or the Germans in our use of high speed trains, but for as long as Britain remains RIP OFF Britain, we just won't use them in the same way.

Which is why a link to Heathrow is going to remain a huge failure for as long as this is the case too. I think it's reasonable to presume that there will be some good value off-peak fares available from say Heathrow via HS2 to Birmingham and Manchester, but they'll be on the booked train and not open. With the unreliability of air into Heathrow, how much of a time buffer are you going to have to include when booking an advance fare from Heathrow? A huge one, because the train company isn't going to give a toss if your flight was delayed inbound to Heathrow. In which case the only other alternative is a walk-up fare, which will be HUGE! This puts rail at a major disadvantage. The only other way that it might be avoided is if the airlines enter a codesharing agreement with the railway in the same way Air France do on the routes from CDG to Brussels, in which case you can book the train on the same PNR as the flight and therefore your connection is "protected". I think this could work very well.
 

Geezertronic

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It would be interesting to see whether it has been considered that Europe bound trains from Birmingham and further north maybe would use the HS2/HS1 link and stop at St Pancras rather than Euston (as the link appears to allow that), reverse there and carry on their way to Europe?
 

Striker

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It would be interesting to see whether it has been considered that Europe bound trains from Birmingham and further north maybe would use the HS2/HS1 link and stop at St Pancras rather than Euston (as the link appears to allow that), reverse there and carry on their way to Europe?

The problem will be the need for immigration and security clearance. Either they'll have to do it at the origin (Birmingham or Manchester for example) or they'll have to stop in St Pancras and deboard, which defeats the whole object of a through train to Europe from the north. They may as well just board a train to Euston and take the people mover to St Pancras.

So, I think it will either have to be immigration and security completed at the origin stations such as Birmingham and Manchester and then maybe joining up with a St Pancras originating set at Ebbsfleet or Ashford, or no continental services from the north at all.
 

vtiman

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my suggestion for having a full link from hs1 to hs2 from day one is that some domestic services could bypass euston/st pancras and distribute london bound passengers at old oak, stratford then continue to ebbsfleet / ashford with some continuing along the great eastern main line.

most people will be transferring onto other rail/underground or other services at euston, it will not likely be a destination in its own right.

if you want to go to north west london to say watford, or wembley or heathrow or you want to go to oxford street or docklands, you will transfer to the relevant services at old oak common.

Trains could continue via hs1/2 link to stratford so that those wanting the east end, olympic stadium, excel, o2 and docklands etc could transfer there. continuing to ebbsfleet would allow easy cross platform access to hs1 domestic and international services.

having less trains terminating at euston would mean that the redevelopment there could be both less intrusive and costly and the savings might pay for all or most of the second 1-2 link tunnel !

and there is the additional cost and disruption to hs1and2 to consider when the second link line is built. we done want to open high speed to great fanfare to then do major engineering works. at the very least passive provision should be made. makes me think of the a14/m6 link. the a14 should have been an extension of the m6 with 6 lanes to start. having 4 lanes and then joining the roads together via a roundabout was not forward thinking. and of course it woould have been better to electrify and upgrade nuneaton- felixstowe....!!!but thats another post............................
 

dalmahoyhill

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HS2-HS1 Connection.

I disagree that budget airlines will make HS2 to continental travel market unviable. At the moment this would be the case but HS2 is going to be finished in 2025 and it will be a different world by then. Oil costs are only going north and I would expect to see budget airlines struggle to compete in the future, their business model may be outdated soon. Everywhere High Speed Rail has been implemented the attractiveness of the service (except eurostar in snow!) has encouraged people to switch.

DB is going to run services to St Pancras and a pan European network is being constructed. The rest of the UK really needs to be joined to the continent.

The original HS2 brief by Adonis did not ask for a HS2 to HS1 connection. But the report by Arups in Dec 2009 did include rough costs for various options, including:

  • Option 1: a single track bi-directional link via the North London Line (NLL)
  • to the portal north of St Pancras, £458mill
  • Option 2: a double track link via the NLL to the portal north of St Pancras; £812milll
  • Option 3: a double track ‘fast’ link to a new grade-separated junction east of
  • the St Pancras portal. £3.5 bill.

They have gone for option 1 lite by the seems of it. A bit of a dogs dinner in my opinion. Although I am glad a connecting line is included, this single tunnel idea seems a bit daft. It really throttles capacity and as its approx 3miles from Old Oak common to near Euston, why not run the tunnel all the way to St Pancras instead of using the N London line? It is not much further. For double the price you remove the pressure off the N London line, and add additional capacity into Euston if there is a spur added. What about future capacity on the N London line, is there likely to be congestion?

I really think it is short sited to only construct a single track tunnel. It should be double although I do accept that it should be lower speed due to the prohibitive cost of a high speed tunnel.

In addition if continental trains stop at Old Oak common (with passport control) then cross rail will service many destinations in the city, not all need to go to Euston. That’s why the Old Oak common station is such a great idea. Much better than the original Tory idea to run to heathrow at great expense. All this required joined up integrated transport planning which is what this country has always been rubbish at.

I would even suggest a spur from the Great Western line onto HS2. If the Great Western gets electrified, Bristol-Paris services?


Alignment

Generally, I think the route chosen for HS2 is bang on and first bit of well planned transport infrastructure in the UK since Victorian Times (and HS1!).
The original design docs from the 1st stab at the alignment mentioned that the cost of building the route alongside the M1 was prohibitive due to tunnelling costs getting out of London and tunnelling around Luton. Choosing Old Oak common and following the Chiltern route makes sense. Low tunnelling and demolition costs whilst retaining reasonable line speeds for getting out of London makes it a good decision.

The route between the M25 and Birmingham is determined by following the Chiltern line out of London. More green belt but cheaper construction costs.

Arranging HS2 so the through line speeds to the North at the Birmingham spur are maintained was a good choice. Running into Birmingham at 115mph is still better than the classic lines.

A spur into Birmingham and a station at Curzon street isn’t ideal but it is the best compromise in the circumstances. A through line across Birmingham would have been exorbitant and constructing the station in new street is just as pricey. New Street is at capacity and its location low in the centre of Birmingham suggests that at HS station would have to be built underground as there is just no space to expand New Street. This is just too expensive.

I would like to see a connection to the existing midland lines at Curzon street. So in the future when the V arrangement is complete, cross country services from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle and leeds can use HS3 and transfer onto the classic route down to Bristol (if it ever gets electrified).

I would be interested to see any concepts for HS3 and the V formation. I would suspect that it will mimic the WC and ECML arrangement with a spine route with various spurs off to cities and parkway stations, similar to the German Hannover-Wurzburg route. I would be very surprised if it runs directly to leeds and Manchester and terminates. I would expect that it will join the classic routes around Crewe and Wakefield using upgraded classic lines into cities, or slower lines built parallel plus the ability for onward trains going northward to join classic routes. Ultimately I would love one of the routes to be extended to Scotland, though it won’t be in my lifetime.

HS2 Capacity

I also read the guardian article where the head of SNCF said we should consider 4 tracking HS2. SNCF are planning another line from Paris to Lyon due to capacity issues. Adonis wrote a very well informed article (a first for a transport secretary) in Modern Railways about his experiences and thoughts on High Speed Rail. He considered that HS2 would be built as a 2 track but that the corridor would be picked and acquired with future 4 tracking in mind including any tunnels into London…. Which leads onto the HS1, connecting tunnel, surely this should be double tracked so it can also be used for future capacity into Euston? Certainly if the Y shape gets completed it will involve a high frequency of trains running into London.

Adonis thought the Japanese and German high speed models were more suited to the UK rather than the French, due to our geography. I would agree. I have travelled on the Japanese Shinkansen and Japan is densely populated like us. The Tokaido shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka runs through conurbation nearly all the way. There are stations every 30miles or so and it is used to commute into Tokyo. So it shoots down the argument that it only works in larger countries.

On lesser intermediate stations the slower Kodama services pull off on fairly high speed turnouts (80mph at a guess) and into the station platforms at high speed. About 1min after the train pulls in, a fast Hikari service flies by on the through lines at 185mph. Even in-cab signalling must be running close to capacity in this case which I understand is the case. But how do you increase capacity without building an expensive new line that demolishes suburbs for 300miles or avoids the cities by running in tunnel the whole way? I am sure the Japanese in the 60s had no idea how popular it would become, we don’t want to make the same mistake.

The last thing is Japanese service made me weep, I wish our services ran as efficiently. We got the train from Tokyo to Sapporo in Northern Japan, a journey of 650miles. It took 9 hours and 3 changes. The first 390miles are on shinkansen and it took 3 hrs. We had a 5min to transfer to the waiting connection to go through the Seikan tunnel to Hakodate. Another 5 min connection, then a slow stopper to Sapporo. The train was bang on time into Sapporo!
 

Chris125

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If you want to understand why one decision was made over another, such as the reasoning behind the HS1-2 connection, go and find out. All the reports are online.

Chris
 

EWS 58038

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Length isn't the whole issue, turnout speed is. If the turnout speed is lower than the mainline speed then approach release signalling will be in place. Get the turnout speed to the loops the same as the mainline and then it shouldnt be an issue.

Did you read your own post?

This is absolutely absurd.

Are you sure you want to build a set of points for 450 km'h? How long do you think they have to be, and at what price? A 100 mp'h turnout is perfect for high speed lines. What... a 70 mph turnout is even enough. The Japanese and French do it for years....
 

OMGitsDAVE

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I think what people need to get in to their heads is that this isnt to replace lines, its to improve them.

Why should it be 4-tracked if there's not going to be any overtaking? Waste of money.
 

WatcherZero

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Failed units, maintenence closures of stretchs which are being worked on at night, mentioned freight possibilities, option for differing services e.g. if a classic compatible joins it may want to skip a station or two. I would be so much happier if they built the allignment for possible 4-tracking in the future, it keeps options open. Instead their saving something like 15% of construction costs by minimising land take. Something that 30 or more years in the future might turn round to bite them in the bum, but who cares, its our childrens problem eh?
 

jon0844

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Wasn't the M25 (at least the newer stretches) built with expansion in mind?

I'd certainly hope that HS2 has the capability of being upgraded to four tracks later on.

One silly thought just popped into my head though; for some routes, what's the feasibility of doing THREE tracks, with one being bi-directional? This would allow for faster trains to come into/out of town in the peaks, swapping during the day.
 
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