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HS2 in the press

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Voglitz

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... Because it's a working railway and needs to stay open?

You're saying that lines have to be closed, to be upgraded? Is the Great Western being closed for electrification? What about the Midland Main Line? Are the LUL subsurface lines going to be closed for resignalling?

Please explain. How is upgrading the existing West Coast line for additional capacity, more disruptive than building HS2?
 
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D365

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You're saying that lines have to be closed, to be upgraded? Is the Great Western being closed for electrification? What about the Midland Main Line? Are the LUL subsurface lines going to be closed for resignalling?

Please explain. How is upgrading the existing West Coast line for additional capacity, more disruptive than building HS2?

Ideally yes, they would be closed. But it's not possible.

Can you tell me where any of those schemes hasn't run into trouble; time and cost overruns? There's a severe compromise being made continually.
 

43074

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Please explain. How is upgrading the existing West Coast line for additional capacity, more disruptive than building HS2?

The WCML has been continuously upgraded for essentially 15 years and is still being upgraded (Watford & Bletchley have been completed recently, there is still work ongoing at Norton Bridge...) so for WCML customers building HS2 is most certainly less disruptive, even with the works at Euston.
 

edwin_m

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You're saying that lines have to be closed, to be upgraded? Is the Great Western being closed for electrification? What about the Midland Main Line? Are the LUL subsurface lines going to be closed for resignalling?

Please explain. How is upgrading the existing West Coast line for additional capacity, more disruptive than building HS2?

Because you can build 99% of HS2 on new alignment, without interfering with any existing railway. To upgrade the existing railway you either have to close it for a long period, or work nights and weekends and incur extra cost not only for that but because you have to put the railway back into working order at the end of every possession.

The last time a major main line speed and capacity upgrade was attempted was the WCML from about 1996 to about 2004. This went about three times over budget, made much of the line unuseable at weekends while it was going on, and failed to deliver many of the promised enhancements such as 140mph running.
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I don't believe you.

Please explain.

And when we try to explain, you don't believe us.

This is my last response to McCoy on this thread. I have better things to do with my time.
 
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Trog

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What is the capacity gain from rebuilding all the existing structures to a larger loading gauge?


As I was commenting on the idea of reusing the old CG alignment.
Quite a bit as if you do not do that your new trains will be severely limited in size and speed.
 

Voglitz

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Because you can build 99% of HS2 on new alignment, without interfering with any existing railway.

To build HS2 you have to interfere with the existing railway at numerous points. The length of track involved at those points does not determine the amount of disruption. The disruption at Euston would affect perhaps just 1 km of the WCML, but would be enormous.

To upgrade the existing railway you either have to close it for a long period, or work nights and weekends and incur extra cost not only for that but because you have to put the railway back into working order at the end of every possession.

It depends on what form the "upgrade" takes. For example, capacity on the WCML was "upgraded" by lengthening Pendolino trainsets. The amount of on-track disruption involved in that upgrade, was minimal.

A large amount of WCML "upgrade" possessions were actually unavoidable renewal possessions. Some contributors to this thread don't seem to understand the difference between upgrade and renewal works.

The last time a major main line speed and capacity upgrade was attempted was the WCML from about 1996 to about 2004. This went about three times over budget, made much of the line unuseable at weekends while it was going on, and failed to deliver many of the promised enhancements such as 140mph running.

The upgrade for 140mph was cancelled at an early stage. The West Coast works were mainly unavoidable renewals.

And when we try to explain, you don't believe us.

You haven't explained anything.

This is my last response to McCoy on this thread. I have better things to do with my time.

Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions. I'm interested in ensuring that people looking for information about HS2, have access to balanced information.
 

Trog

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Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions. I'm interested in ensuring that people looking for information about HS2, have access to balanced information.

Good idea, when you find it read it. As at the moment it is obvious that you know nothing about railway renewal and enhancement.
 

Geezertronic

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To build HS2 you have to interfere with the existing railway at numerous points. The length of track involved at those points does not determine the amount of disruption. The disruption at Euston would affect perhaps just 1 km of the WCML, but would be enormous.

A new alignment with numerous WCML interaction points and disruptions would still be much better than disrupting the length of the WCML


It depends on what form the "upgrade" takes. For example, capacity on the WCML was "upgraded" by lengthening Pendolino trainsets. The amount of on-track disruption involved in that upgrade, was minimal.

And to provide further additional capacity, extending past 11 carriages would involve a lot of disruption at stations alongside the route with some unable to be lengthened due to the disruption and layout


A large amount of WCML "upgrade" possessions were actually unavoidable renewal possessions. Some contributors to this thread don't seem to understand the difference between upgrade and renewal works.

The upgrade for 140mph was cancelled at an early stage. The West Coast works were mainly unavoidable renewals.

It wouldn't have made sense to not include renewals in the upgrade possessions.



You haven't explained anything.

Quite a lot has been explained - it's there in black and white but you choose to ignore it



Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions. I'm interested in ensuring that people looking for information about HS2, have access to balanced information.

The information is there for anyone to look at and look at it I certainly have living close to the planned Berkswell & BHI alignment. The vast majority of your opinions are not based on fact as far as HS2 is concerned and appear twisted to suit your own agenda (whatever that is - please share)
 

nidave

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The vast majority of your opinions are not based on fact as far as HS2 is concerned and appear twisted to suit your own agenda (whatever that is - please share)

I would like to know the reason behind all posts from him as well - be really interesting to see the root cause or if its just trolling.
 

Voglitz

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A new alignment with numerous WCML interaction points and disruptions would still be much better than disrupting the length of the WCML

But the HS2 project involves disrupting 'the length of the WCML', from Euston to Carstairs.

And to provide further additional capacity, extending past 11 carriages would involve a lot of disruption at stations alongside the route

You seem to be assuming that

(i) the provision of additional capacity definitely requires 'extending past 11 carriages',

and

(ii) platform extensions would involve more disruption to the West Coast route, than building HS2.

If that is the case, then where is the evidence to support your assumptions?

It wouldn't have made sense to not include renewals in the upgrade possessions.

Indeed. The fact that upgrades were done during unavoidable renewals meant that enhancements had, in many cases, negligible to zero disruption cost.

In the same way, Pendolino lengthening had minimal line-of-route disruption effect.

The vast majority of your opinions are not based on fact as far as HS2 is concerned and appear twisted to suit your own agenda (whatever that is - please share)

Which ones are not based on fact?
 

NotATrainspott

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But the HS2 project involves disrupting 'the length of the WCML', from Euston to Carstairs.

No it doesn't. There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least, and the works needed on the WCML are in a small number of targeted locations. The classic connection works are on the same scale as the current Norton Bridge works, which are built mostly offline and as many works that require a blockade are rolled into as few blockades as possible. Even then, the actual impact will be limited - any works at Golbourne, for example, would cause no detriment to any Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool services, and any London-Scotland passengers would only need bustituted for a few kilometres between Wigan and Warrington.

You seem to be assuming that

(i) the provision of additional capacity definitely requires 'extending past 11 carriages',

Well then, how are you going to increase capacity while retaining tilt capability without extending trains? The Norton Bridge works will free up a few paths on the WCML which will then be used to run more services - the Scotland trains would then miss out Warrington and Wigan and those calls replaced by another service.

and

(ii) platform extensions would involve more disruption to the West Coast route, than building HS2.

Go on Google Maps and look at the WCML stations. Look at all the track crossovers, land use nearby, geography and other relevant things. Work out how much you would need to change to extend the platforms by another carriage length.

If that is the case, then where is the evidence to support your assumptions?

Indeed. The fact that upgrades were done during unavoidable renewals meant that enhancements had, in many cases, negligible to zero disruption cost.

In the same way, Pendolino lengthening had minimal line-of-route disruption effect.

The Pendolinos were extended to 11-car because that's what the infrastructure allowed without a vast amount of extra investment. If the infrastructure hadn't, then we would have 10 car Pendolinos, and if there were even more capability, we would have 12 car Pendolinos. Is it just as easy to double a 4 car train to 8 car as a 12 car to 24 car? No, and you know you cannot argue as much because of the law of diminishing returns. That same law applies to extending the Pendolinos by single carriages at a time.

Which ones are not based on fact?

Your argument consists of demanding answers from people who simply cannot give them, and completely ignoring the answers provided by people who have actually got the ability to talk authoritatively about the subject.
 

pablo

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“Instead of hunter gathering, maybe pastoral farming would be better?”

It’s not been tried. What is your evidence for that?

“Maybe stone and timber houses would be better than living in caves."

There is no evidence for that. Timber rots and stones fall down. Caves are always there.

In 14 hundred and 92 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. "Maybe, if we sail west-about we will find the East Indies by a straighter route, rather than rounding Africa."

"We know of no reason to think the earth is round. You will fall off the edge!"

"These new steam railways are a monstrosity. They can do 60 mph. People will suffocated with the wind pressure at that speed."

"If the Almighty intended man to fly he’d have given us wings."

"There is no evidence that man can travel to the moon and return safely."

The world has a place for reactionaries and impractical dreamers, and all 150 shades in between.

However…..
 
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Voglitz

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No it doesn't. There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least, and the works needed on the WCML are in a small number of targeted locations.

Operation of 400-metre HS2 trains north of Golborne, as proposed by HS2 Ltd, would require interventions on the West Coast Main Line.

The classic connection works are on the same scale as the current Norton Bridge works, which are built mostly offline and as many works that require a blockade are rolled into as few blockades as possible. Even then, the actual impact will be limited - any works at Golbourne, for example, would cause no detriment to any Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool services, and any London-Scotland passengers would only need bustituted for a few kilometres between Wigan and Warrington.

The required works include platform extensions - which you seem to think are 'very disruptive'.

Well then, how are you going to increase capacity while retaining tilt capability without extending trains? The Norton Bridge works will free up a few paths on the WCML which will then be used to run more services - the Scotland trains would then miss out Warrington and Wigan and those calls replaced by another service.

By optimising path utilisation, and / or using more space-efficient trains, resignalling, or running trains at full length.

Go on Google Maps and look at the WCML stations. Look at all the track crossovers, land use nearby, geography and other relevant things. Work out how much you would need to change to extend the platforms by another carriage length.

I've looked at Google Maps, and read the Atkins assessments.

The Pendolinos were extended to 11-car because that's what the infrastructure allowed without a vast amount of extra investment. If the infrastructure hadn't, then we would have 10 car Pendolinos, and if there were even more capability, we would have 12 car Pendolinos.

The point I was making was the West Coast upgrades were done during a process of unavoidable renewals. So, in many cases, the marginal cost of the upgrade, was negligible.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Operation of 400-metre HS2 trains north of Golborne, as proposed by HS2 Ltd, would require interventions on the West Coast Main Line.

The required works include platform extensions - which you seem to think are 'very disruptive'.

North of most of the problem areas, and not causing problems to the vast majority of current WCML traffic. The only planned stops by 400m classic-compatibles are Carstairs and Preston, the former which wouldn't actually justify opening the train doors and the latter in a large station with railway land to spare.

By optimising path utilisation, and / or using more space-efficient trains, resignalling, or running trains at full length.

Excellent, and then when you've done these, then what? What about 2030, 2040, 2050 or into the future?

I've looked at Google Maps, and read the Atkins assessments.

Look at Coventry and Liverpool Lime Street.

The point I was making was the West Coast upgrades were done during a process of unavoidable renewals. So, in many cases, the marginal cost of the upgrade, was negligible.

And yet the level of upgrade you now need to provide to get more capacity out of the line is now far larger, as you need to rebuild far more and do far larger interventions. It's the law of diminishing returns; you upgrade the easiest things first since they have the best BCR, leaving you with worse and worse options as you go down the list.
 

Voglitz

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North of most of the problem areas, and not causing problems to the vast majority of current WCML traffic.

You wrote that "There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least". You now appear to accept that HS2 enabling works are required north of Golborne.

BTW other interventions are proposed by HS2 Ltd, to mitigate the lower performance of their non-tilting trains through curves on the classic line.

The only planned stops by 400m classic-compatibles are Carstairs and Preston, the former which wouldn't actually justify opening the train doors and the latter in a large station with railway land to spare.

That seems to be because extending the platforms to 400m at Wigan North Western is deemed too expensive.
Excellent, and then when you've done these, then what? What about 2030, 2040, 2050 or into the future?

So far as can be foreseen, there appears to be sufficient capacity potential on the existing line.

Andrew McNaughton said that with a homogenous service, 20+ trains per hour could run between Euston and Rugby on the fast lines.

Look at Coventry and Liverpool Lime Street.

Replacing three hourly Pendolinos with four 260m IEP-type trains between Euston and New Street would mean there is no requirement to lengthen platforms at Coventry.

Oddly enough, the "HS2 Linking Liverpool" campaign seems to think 400 metre trains would be an option at Lime Street. But a cheaper way of increasing capacity would just be to run more trains (e.g. by portion working).

And yet the level of upgrade you now need to provide to get more capacity out of the line is now far larger, as you need to rebuild far more and do far larger interventions. It's the law of diminishing returns; you upgrade the easiest things first since they have the best BCR, leaving you with worse and worse options as you go down the list.

It's possible to increase capacity by about 40%, with hardly any on-track interventions; by using space-efficient trains, running services at full length, and using unused paths.
 
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Noddy

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You wrote that "There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least". You now appear to accept that HS2 enabling works are required north of Golborne.

BTW other interventions are proposed by HS2 Ltd, to mitigate the lower performance of their non-tilting trains through curves on the classic line.



That seems to be because extending the platforms to 400m at Wigan North Western is deemed too expensive.


So far as can be foreseen, there appears to be sufficient capacity potential on the existing line.

Andrew McNaughton said that with a homogenous service, 20+ trains per hour could run between Euston and Rugby on the fast lines.



Replacing three hourly Pendolinos with four 260m IEP-type trains between Euston and New Street would mean there is no requirement to lengthen platforms at Coventry.

Oddly enough, the "HS2 Linking Liverpool" campaign seems to think 400 metre trains would be an option at Lime Street. But a cheaper way of increasing capacity would just be to run more trains (e.g. by portion working).



It's possible to increase capacity by about 40%, with hardly any on-track interventions; by using space-efficient trains, running services at full length, and using unused paths.

I don't believe you.
 

NotATrainspott

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You wrote that "There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least". You now appear to accept that HS2 enabling works are required north of Golborne.

BTW other interventions are proposed by HS2 Ltd, to mitigate the lower performance of their non-tilting trains through curves on the classic line.

The extent of works north of Golbourne that will actually be put in place is still to be determined based upon the plans for HS2 to Scotland. The more new track that is built, the less need for WCML improvements to compensate for the non-tilt speeds. Unlike the southern WCML, there would be no remaining services which would benefit from linespeed increases once high speed bypasses are in place.

That seems to be because extending the platforms to 400m at Wigan North Western is deemed too expensive.

Once the Norton Bridge works are complete, Wigan North Western will be dropped from the Glasgow expresses. The HS2 service pattern is based upon the planned future WCML service pattern once the current tranche of works are complete, given that it would have been in place for more than a decade by the time Phase 1 opens.

So far as can be foreseen, there appears to be sufficient capacity potential on the existing line.

Andrew McNaughton said that with a homogenous service, 20+ trains per hour could run between Euston and Rugby on the fast lines.

And that homogeneous service pattern means you have to decide whether to slow down every train and undo all the work done to make the train more competitive on long distance journeys, or drop all the station calls and cut off places like Milton Keynes from the services they need to prosper. Once you have Phase 1 and 2 in place, you can safely enforce a consistent stopping pattern because the important flows are now running non-stop on HS2.

Replacing three hourly Pendolinos with four 260m IEP-type trains between Euston and New Street would mean there is no requirement to lengthen platforms at Coventry.

Except that this extra path along the WCML is already allocated for the post-Norton Bridge timetable. Birmingham is not the be-all and end-all of capacity problems - what will you do for Manchester then, as well as Birmingham? You have to choose which destination gets that extra path, and when demand is going to be spread so much, you're going to have a rather difficult time choosing who should get it.

Oddly enough, the "HS2 Linking Liverpool" campaign seems to think 400 metre trains would be an option at Lime Street. But a cheaper way of increasing capacity would just be to run more trains (e.g. by portion working).

Running more trains is wonderful, except that you've already allocated every free path on the WCML already. You've also already extended each and every service to run full-length, so you don't have any space for portion working either. The proposal I have seen for 400m sets at Lime Street is naive at best, given that it involves only two platforms built new in an S-shape which would never be permitted.

It's possible to increase capacity by about 40%, with hardly any on-track interventions; by using space-efficient trains, running services at full length, and using unused paths.

Yes, and that's wonderful. But when you've got passenger numbers growing at 2-4% year-on-year, that 40% capacity uplift takes you only until the planned opening date of HS2 or thereabouts. What about after that?
 

Noddy

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Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions. I'm interested in ensuring that people looking for information about HS2, have access to balanced information.

I'd like you to provide sources for your 'balanced information' then. So far, in all these threads, all I've seen are your opinions, usually contradictory, and a few 'quotes'.
 

Voglitz

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The extent of works north of Golbourne that will actually be put in place is still to be determined based upon the plans for HS2 to Scotland.

Why did you claim "There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least", if such works are required to run the planned service?

Once the Norton Bridge works are complete, Wigan North Western will be dropped from the Glasgow expresses.

Wigan has about three times the population of Preston, so if rail services were being planned rationally, Glasgow expresses would stop there. HS2 is a political project, not a transport one.

And that homogeneous service pattern means you have to decide whether to slow down every train

It means trains have to run at a homogeneous speed (not necessarily a slower one). There would be no effect on Milton Keynes commuter trains, if they ran at the homogeneous speed.

and undo all the work done to make the train more competitive on long distance journeys, or drop all the station calls and cut off places like Milton Keynes from the services they need to prosper.

If the WCML maximum speed were reduced to 177 km/h, the effect on journey times would be minimal, and competitiveness with car and aeroplane virtually unchanged.

But the requirement is for a homogeneous speed, not necessarily a slower one.

Once you have Phase 1 and 2 in place, you can safely enforce a consistent stopping pattern because the important flows are now running non-stop on HS2.

It's not necessary to build Phase 1 or 2, to run trains at a homogenous speed.

Except that this extra path along the WCML is already allocated for the post-Norton Bridge timetable. Birmingham is not the be-all and end-all of capacity problems - what will you do for Manchester then, as well as Birmingham? You have to choose which destination gets that extra path, and when demand is going to be spread so much, you're going to have a rather difficult time choosing who should get it.

Birmingham might need zero to four WCML paths, depending on how much use were made of the Chiltern Line.

There are 16 intercity / outer suburban fast paths on West Coast with the current signalling (potentially 20+ with new signalling).

Running more trains is wonderful, except that you've already allocated every free path on the WCML already. You've also already extended each and every service to run full-length, so you don't have any space for portion working either.

The overall short-term capacity uplift available is 40%, without significant on-track intervention. With new signalling, platform lengthening, and new trains, the potential long term uplift is much larger. McNulty suggested that passenger numbers could double by 2030.

The effective capacity increase could be higher than 40%, for example, by reallocating the North Wales path to Liverpool.

Yes, and that's wonderful. But when you've got passenger numbers growing at 2-4% year-on-year, that 40% capacity uplift takes you only until the planned opening date of HS2 or thereabouts. What about after that?

The figures released in the High Court in 2012 suggested that, on average, a Virgin Train carried <250 passengers in the peak. So, with 4% compound growth, the arithmetic tends to support the adequacy of upgrade-based strategies in the short and long term.
 
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WatcherZero

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Ive not seen anything to suggest HS2 services onto the WCML (Wigan, Preston, Scotland) would be anything but 260m and would be using the classic compatible stock that was initially used for Manchester before phase 2.
 

NotATrainspott

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Why did you claim "There are no HS2 works currently planned north of Golbourne or Church Fenton at the very least", if such works are required to run the planned service?

The Phase 2 Hybrid Bill would only work as far as Golbourne and Church Fenton. What Network Rail do elsewhere in junction with HS2, but not funded by the HS2 budget, is more-or-less up to them. For example, should HS2 Ltd be billed for upgrading the tracks around Carlisle so that express services don't have to crawl through? NR's WCML RUS shows that most of the speed pinch-points on the WCML north of Preston are around junctions, as they were on the southern WCML before the WCRM (e.g. how the journey time saving from 230km/h running was instead achieved by re-configuring Rugby station and junction). Those improvements can and very likely will be made in the next decade or so regardless of HS2.

Wigan has about three times the population of Preston, so if rail services were being planned rationally, Glasgow expresses would stop there. HS2 is a political project, not a transport one.

York has a smaller population than Doncaster but current East Coast expresses have it as their first stop out of King's Cross. Calling patterns are determined using a variety of factors and here there is a clear intention that Preston should have the only Scotland express stop rather than Wigan, at the behest of Network Rail and Virgin Trains West Coast with absolutely zero regard for anything HS2 Ltd have to care about.

It means trains have to run at a homogeneous speed (not necessarily a slower one). There would be no effect on Milton Keynes commuter trains, if they ran at the homogeneous speed.

Not all trains to Milton Keynes are commuter ones. Homogeneous speeds means that the average speed of all trains on the track between point A and B (Euston and Rugby, most likely) would be the same. That can't be achieved when some of them are stopping unless those stopping services run faster, and even then it's not going to allow you to run a 20tph service. A 20tph service will require a literally identical stopping pattern, and if you have 180km/h London Midland trains as well, then not only would all Virgin expresses have to stop at every station but they would also have to be limited to 180km/h as well. Since you can't get this all to work, you're not going to have a homogeneous service, so your belief that the WCML can go up to 20tph is more than misguided. The GWML can and will be able to achieve this because the service pattern is significantly more rationalised from the very beginning - there are no regular Main line stops until Reading other than the grade-separated Heathrow Express services.

If the WCML maximum speed were reduced to 177 km/h, the effect on journey times would be minimal, and competitiveness with car and aeroplane virtually unchanged.

Fundamentally you can't start hacking away at the journey time decreases that have made rail so successful without making the service less useful.

But the requirement is for a homogeneous speed, not necessarily a slower one.

The only way of retaining stops, not being slower and having a homogeneous speed is to make stopping services run faster than the express ones. 'Slow' passenger services and freight fit together because a non-stop 75mph freight and a stopping 100mph passenger service have a similar average speed, while a 110mph stopping service is mathematically unable to have a similar average speed to a 110/125mph express one.

It's not necessary to build Phase 1 or 2, to run trains at a homogenous speed.

It is if you want to make these paths useful.

Birmingham might need zero to four WCML paths, depending on how much use were made of the Chiltern Line.

I'm sure Chiltern Railways, given that they have a 30 year franchise, were set up by a management buyout of the existing route, and run every aspect of services along it are completely and utterly mistaken when they say that they wholeheartedly support HS2 and reject claims that there is plenty of untapped capacity on their route which makes HS2 unnecessary. How many London-Birmingham paths are there an hour on the Chiltern route? How long are the trains able to be, given that they run into Marylebone? How long do services take?

There are 16 intercity paths on West Coast with the current signalling (potentially 20+ with new signalling).

Which is wonderful, but that's not enough for the next 30 years. Those paths have to serve the busiest population and transport corridor in the country.

The overall short-term capacity uplift available is 40%, without significant on-track intervention. With new signalling, platform lengthening, and new trains, the potential long term uplift is much larger. McNulty suggested that passenger numbers could double by 2030.

If you rebuilt the WCML for double-deck trains you could have a wonderful capacity uplift, but the business case of doing so would be abominable. Anything is possible if you have enough money to throw at it, but any government or private enterprise is going to invest their money as sensibly as possible to get the best possible return. Spending it on HS2 is a better overall investment for the amount of capacity you get plus the other effects of the scheme.

The effective capacity increase could be higher than 40%, for example, by reallocating the North Wales path to Liverpool.

When you start robbing Peter to pay Paul you know you're in deep trouble. So once you've removed services from Chester (given that Chester services are extended to North Wales in the way that Edinburgh East Coast services are extended to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow) where do you get your second new path? That one Chester path can't serve Birmingham as well as Manchester or somewhere else, unless you want to make a service which isn't actually useful for the non-Birmingham passengers whatsoever.

The figures released in the High Court in 2012 suggested that, on average, a Virgin Train carried <250 passengers in the peak. So, with 4% compound growth, the arithmetic tends to support the adequacy of upgrade-based strategies in the short and long term.

And the reason why Virgin's peak time loadings are comparatively low is that their pricing structure forces people onto the shoulder peak. So, once you change this structure so that there is never an incentive to have empty seats, what do you do then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ive not seen anything to suggest HS2 services onto the WCML (Wigan, Preston, Scotland) would be anything but 260m and would be using the classic compatible stock that was initially used for Manchester before phase 2.

No, the Phase 2 plans were for each Scotland path to be done as 2 200m classic-compatibles which would split at Carstairs to serve Edinburgh and Glasgow equally. However, that can and will change when the plans for serving Scotland are developed, so we can't take anything for granted right now.
 

158756

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York has a smaller population than Doncaster but current East Coast expresses have it as their first stop out of King's Cross. Calling patterns are determined using a variety of factors and here there is a clear intention that Preston should have the only Scotland express stop rather than Wigan, at the behest of Network Rail and Virgin Trains West Coast with absolutely zero regard for anything HS2 Ltd have to care about.

Sorry this doesn't add much to the discussion, but:

Doncaster and Wigan (the towns) are smaller than York and Preston respectively, but are often quoted as having the populations of the metropolitan districts of the same name. (Ditto Wakefield, Rochdale, Bradford etc)
 

HSTEd

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I think the reason that the expresses stop first at York rather than Doncaster is you can run through Doncaster an awful lot faster than York.
If there was some sort of high speed York avoider things might be different.
 

Geezertronic

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Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions.

That's a couple times you have said that now. Other contributors are not looking to change anti-railway opinions either...


I'm interested in ensuring that people looking for information about HS2, have access to balanced information.

Balanced information is one thing and is freely available to anyone with access to Google and the time to peruse, but when the discussions seem to revolve around you disputing the balanced information others provide, I personally do have to wonder what your agenda is (and you still have not said what it is)
 

Deerfold

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Good, I'm not looking to change fanboy opinions.

Or yours. In any way. No matter what information you're given. You appear to fundamentally not understand what trains running at a homogenous speed means for a start which causes me to doubt you understand the other matters you dismiss with no explanation.
 
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