HS2 if the Germans had planned it

[MattRat]

Therefore the whole context in which HS2 was designed would change, the need for capacity wouldn't be on the London to Birmingham route, it would be more about serving destinations further North, and that would lead to a redesign of the route, the need to swerve over towards Birmingham disappears, the route is pulled further to the East to connect and serve not only the more northern WCML destinations but also the East Midlands cities along the MML.

Rather than a route via the South East of Birmingham, it would favour a more central route nearer Rugby, tying into the Trent valley line and upto the MML at Leicester or further North. HS2 becomes more of a high speed South Midlands by-pass, fully integrated with the existing railway.

It would still be designed around serving London, Birmingham and Manchester. As far as Westminster is concerned, that's all that exists to them, and all that matters, and even then there's still a massive London bias.

If they actually believed the stuff that comes out of their own mouth, like strengthening the union and levelling up the North, at the very least the GWML would be electrified to Cardiff, and Manchester would have a new rail tunnel through it going west to east, to help better connect the North.

 

[Senex]

Berlin HbF is elevated, which makes it easier to add a second level.

Only the Stadtbahn east-west platforms are elevated. The eight north-south platforms are below ground level.

 

[M&NEJ]

I'm amused by the focus on Euston and how to accommodate another set of platforms. Surely if the Germans (or French) were designing HS2 it would begin or end at HS1 in King's Cross ?!

 

[MattRat]

I'm amused by the focus on Euston and how to accommodate another set of platforms. Surely if the Germans (or French) were designing HS2 it would begin or end at HS1 in King's Cross ?!

If that happened, you'd be focusing on the ECML, specifically upgrades to get the full potential from the alignment, and well as more tracks to segregate trains, and then build NPR as part of HS2 to get to Manchester and Liverpool, even if the route is a little circuitous. Although, at that point, you are ignoring the main reason for HS2, which is London to Birmingham capacity.

 

[zwk500]

I'm amused by the focus on Euston and how to accommodate another set of platforms. Surely if the Germans (or French) were designing HS2 it would begin or end at HS1 in King's Cross ?!

The French have stuck with their traditional terminals in Paris, and HS1 doesn't end at King's Cross but St Pancras (sorry!).

Maybe if the British Library and Crick Institute hadn't been in the way we'd have had HS2 below the Thameslink Platforms at St Pancras for a massive hub, Antwerp Central style. It's only 500m from Euston to St Pancras so an exit at either end could have been provided.

 

[M&NEJ]

The French have stuck with their traditional terminals in Paris, and HS1 doesn't end at King's Cross but St Pancras (sorry!).

Point taken, you're absolutely right. I meant St.Pancras all along - I think of "the Cross" and St.Pancras as being one big haven (station) that I get to at the end of that disgusting walk along the road from Euston. (I don't know if I follow the correct route, because I always seem to walk past the end of St.Pancras, to reach the square dominated by King's Cross before I actually find a way in to the Eurostar terminal).

 

[zwk500]

Point taken, you're absolutely right. I meant St.Pancras all along - I think of "the Cross" and St.Pancras as being one big haven (station) that I get to at the end of that disgusting walk along the road from Euston.

Tbf it almost is. I avoid the walk along Euston Road by going 1 up to Phoenix Road, it's much quieter.

(I don't know if I follow the correct route, because I always seem to walk past the end of St.Pancras, to reach the square dominated by King's Cross before I actually find a way in to the Eurostar terminal).

The best route from St Pancras to Euston is to stand at the entrance by the Thameslink Gateline facing the British library, then head down the road to the right of the Francis Crick institute. Follow that road straight ahead until you reach Eversholt street and Euston, then turn left and follow the station down to the main entrance.
From the Euston platforms, head for the back left exit, past M&S and down the stairs then turn left. Follow eversholt street down until you come to the church on the corner of Phoenix Road and turn right, where you'll see St Pancras at the end of the road. You go in the station then turn right to get to the Eurostar terminal.
AIUI part of the HS2 works will be to put another entrance for Euston at Phoneix road and to renovate Phoenix Road.

There is a route through the estate but it's difficult to follow on the ground unless you know what you're looking for.

 

[M&NEJ]

Tbf it almost is. I avoid the walk along Euston Road by going 1 up to Phoenix Road, it's much quieter.

The best route from St Pancras to Euston is to stand at the entrance by the Thameslink Gateline facing the British library, then head down the road to the right of the Francis Crick institute. Follow that road straight ahead until you reach Eversholt street and Euston, then turn left and follow the station down to the main entrance.
From the Euston platforms, head for the back left exit, past M&S and down the stairs then turn left. Follow eversholt street down until you come to the church on the corner of Phoenix Road and turn right, where you'll see St Pancras at the end of the road. You go in the station then turn right to get to the Eurostar terminal.
AIUI part of the HS2 works will be to put another entrance for Euston at Phoneix road and to renovate Phoenix Road.

There is a route through the estate but it's difficult to follow on the ground unless you know what you're looking for.

Thank you! I'll try this in the summer when I next have to join the queue at Eurostar!

 

[zwk500]

Thank you! I'll try this in the summer when I next have to join the queue at Eurostar!

From Euston it's atrociously signed, but here's the road you want: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.530...4!1sel3hirAITCIyaTlgQS3RKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[dk1]

Much as I respect German engineering I always refer to the Berlin Brandenburg Airport fiasco. It doesn’t always go according to plan.

 

[Turtle]

Worth pondering.

Afterall, what's the wurst that could happen !

Bad p(l)unning!

 

[MarkyT]

Tbf it almost is. I avoid the walk along Euston Road by going 1 up to Phoenix Road, it's much quieter.
...
AIUI part of the HS2 works will be to put another entrance for Euston at Phoneix road and to renovate Phoenix Road.

I think it was a TfL scheme to provide the new east side access, with routes to platforms using parts of the disused parcels deck. I don't know the current status. While easy interchange between all Euston services (incl. HS2) and continental services is a benefit, Thameslink with its myriad Southern and South Eastern connections will also be quick and easy from Euston using this link, far more pleasant than the polluted and circuitous route via Euston Road.

There is a route through the estate but it's difficult to follow on the ground unless you know what you're looking for.

With narrow passageways in places and a gateway through one of the residential buildings, that can feel a bit intimidating to some, especially after dark. The Phoenix Rd /Brill Place route is more open, and if upgraded with improved furniture and signage and 'shared space' techniques for pedestrian priority, with 'access only' signage for vehicles that should be a good outcome. Perhaps, one day, a covered subsurface route might also be provided as part of a revamped Crossrail 2 station scheme, with the twin entrances planned to the adjacent termini linked by a pedestrian tunnel, possibly incorporating moving walkways (maybe only part of the way to avoid machinery causing vibrations to sensitive experiments in Crick basements - an objection previously raised).

 

[zwk500]

I think it was a TfL scheme to provide the new east side access, with routes to platforms using parts of the disused parcels deck. I don't know the current status. While easy interchange between all Euston services (incl. HS2) and continental services is a benefit, Thameslink with its myriad Southern and South Eastern connections will also be quick and easy from Euston using this link, far more pleasant than the polluted and circuitous route via Euston Road.

Would be good if it comes about, but if it's TfL I can't see the funding coming about.

With narrow passageways in places and a gateway through one of the residential buildings, that can feel a bit intimidating to some, especially after dark. The Phoenix Rd /Brill Place route is more open, and if upgraded with improved furniture and signage and 'shared space' techniques for pedestrian priority, with 'access only' signage for vehicles that should be a good outcome.

Which is why I prefer the more open route.

Perhaps, one day, a covered subsurface route might also be provided as part of a revamped Crossrail 2 station scheme, with the twin entrances planned to the adjacent termini linked by a pedestrian tunnel, possibly incorporating moving walkways (maybe only part of the way to avoid machinery causing vibrations to sensitive experiments in Crick basements - an objection previously raised).

I don't think it really needs moving walkways or a tunneled section, just a nice canopy/pergola thing and pedestrianisation of Phoenix Road.

 

[yorksrob]

Bad p(l)unning!

B-boom tsh

 

[D6130]

I think that the Germans - or the French for that matter - would build a Y-shaped network starting from St Pancras, with new, longer platforms on the West side in place of the current EMR platforms. EMR trains would be diverted into/out of Euston via a new chord in the West Hampstead area and HS2 services would follow the existing Midland Main Line as far as Hendon, using the current Hendon lines from West Hampstead to Hendon, where the High Speed line would diverge to follow the West side of the M1 motorway, and run alongside - or close to it - all the way to Leeds, with Parkway-style stations at - or just outside - Northampton, Leicester, Derby/Nottingham and Sheffield (Meadowhall). The Western branch would diverge near Lilbourne and follow the M6 all the way to Carlisle, with Parkway stations at Coventry/Nuneaton, Birmingham (somewhere in the Gravelly Hill/Aston area....ideally incorporating an interchange with the Cross-City line),Wolverhampton/Walsall, Stoke-on-Trent, Warrington/Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and possibly Carlisle , should the HS line continue into Scotland. There would be chords to the South of Crewe for Liverpool and Manchester services, South of Preston for Blackpool services and South of Lancaster for Furness and Lake District services.

Ideally the Parkway stations would be situated where the line crosses the Northampton Loop just South of Hunsbury Hill Tunnel; the Coventry-Nuneaton Line at Longford; the Derby-Nottingham line at Nuneaton; The Cross-City line at, or near Aston, the Wolverhampton-Walsall line somewhere between Darlaston Jn and Portobello Jn. (connecting with a reinstated Wolves-Walsall service); the 'Potteries Parkway' near Madeley, with a connecting service over a reopened line from Stoke; the Liverpool-Manchester line at Newton-le-Willows; the Preston-Blackburn line at Bamber Bridge and the Lancaster Parkway station would be at Galgate/Bay Horse. On the Eastern branch, stations would be located where the HS line crosses the Birmingham-Leicester line at Narborough; the Derby-Nottingham line at Long Eaton; and the obvious interchange at Meadowhall.

Whether or not the Eastern branch would continue Northwards from Leeds would depend on the finance available, given that there is already a fairly fast route between York and Darlington.....and whether or not either or both branches would continue into Scotland would depend on politics and economics; particularly on whether - and how much - the Scottish government was willing and able to contribute financially.

 

[Ken H]

We have to remember german cities were pretty much trashed in 1945. That meant building infrastructure was easier because the buildings were not there.

 

[30907]

The only thing you could have done significantly differently would have been to orientate the Birmingham station north-south and serve London-Birmingham-Manchester as one train but that will require a budget several orders of magnitude larger than the existing one, which is apparently not affordable!

Actually, as they would have built New Street Low Level in the 70s for the S-Bahn to Walsall/Lichfield/Redditch there would be ample capacity at the existing station - as there would at Manchester Piccadilly HL with its similar network
I do see a possible problem with train lengths though....
Definitely an underground through station at Birmingham though (opened several years late)

Yes but they would've built significantly less earthworks and tunnels and it would have steeper gradients - some German HS lines have 1 in 25 gradients.

One does - but that's more a TGV thing.

They also tend to follow motorways reducing objections in the planning stage.

Some do, but that's fairly recent (Rhein-Main was the first).

And Germany's not brilliant at managing or delivering large infrastructure projects.

Including the HSL through Erfurt which was a good 10 years late.

All that said, they might well have done much more work on the ECML as it passes through easy territory. Something like Tallington to Colton Jn, plus or minus Doncaster?

 

[snowball]

From Euston it's atrociously signed, but here's the road you want: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.530...4!1sel3hirAITCIyaTlgQS3RKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A link which coincidentally shows the site of the shooting two weeks ago.

 

[zwk500]

A link which coincidentally shows the site of the shooting two weeks ago.

Yes, terribly sad incident that. But thankfully rare. I've walked Phoenix Road/Brill place many times during daylight and never had a problem or felt anything even remotely bad. I wouldn't go into the pub on the corner of Brill Place, but that's not unusual for pubs in london.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm amused by the focus on Euston and how to accommodate another set of platforms. Surely if the Germans (or French) were designing HS2 it would begin or end at HS1 in King's Cross ?!

I’m amused that anyone thinks the Germans or French would plan it any differently.

The French, naturellement, have separate high speed lines to Gare du Nord and Gare d de l’Est, which are rather closer to each other than Euston and St Pancras

The best route from St Pancras to Euston is to stand at the entrance by the Thameslink Gateline facing the British library, then head down the road to the right of the Francis Crick institute.

There is a route through the estate but it's difficult to follow on the ground unless you know what you're looking for.

I find it easy. Out the west side entrance of St P by the Thameslink barriers. Straight over the zebra crossing, and keep straight on down the left (south) side of the Francis Crick. When you get to Ossulton St, left for about 50 metres, then turn right through an arch of Levita House. Straight through the courtyard there to Chalton St (Somers Town ‘Coffee’ House on your left), straight over that zebra, through the Alley, bear left but follow the road round and you’ll see the grey hulk of the side of Euston right in front of you. At Eversholt St, cross the zebra, turn left and the side entrance is right there. 6-7 mins walk.

Perhaps, one day, a covered subsurface route might also be provided as part of a revamped Crossrail 2 station scheme, with the twin entrances planned to the adjacent termini linked by a pedestrian tunnel, possibly incorporating moving walkways (maybe only part of the way to avoid machinery causing vibrations to sensitive experiments in Crick basements - an objection previously raised).

There’s not space for that, the link will be through the paid side along the platforms.

 

[zwk500]

I find it easy. Out the west side entrance of St P by the Thameslink barriers. Straight over the zebra crossing, and keep straight on down the left (south) side of the Francis Crick. When you get to Ossulton St, left for about 50 metres, then turn right through an arch of Levita House. Straight through the courtyard there to Chalton St (Somers Town ‘Coffee’ House on your left), straight over that zebra, through the Alley, bear left but follow the road round and you’ll see the grey hulk of the side of Euston right in front of you. At Eversholt St, cross the zebra, turn left and the side entrance is right there. 6-7 mins walk.

I've made a 7/8 minute connection between Eurostar and LNWR before using Brill Place, including with a suitcase. Admittedly I was power walking. I've used the absolute shortest route before, and going via Phoenix road just feels a bit nicer to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've made a 7/8 minute connection between Eurostar and LNWR before using Brill Place, including with a suitcase. Admittedly I was power walking. I've used the absolute shortest route before, and going via Phoenix road just feels a bit nicer to me.

My record is Platform 5 Euston to Platform B St P in 5 Mins. I had just about regained my composure (and breath) by the time the Thameslink train reached St Albans!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has taken me a while to reply on this one, but my general thoughts are that it's likely that DB's final full network would have been similar to what we have planned, though possibly 250km/h top speed. It's possible they might have done some aspects differently, though, e.g. rebuilding Euston to be one station with 400m platforms rather than two separate ones next to each other, and possibly similar at Manchester Piccadilly, so as to allow diversion onto classic lines for engineering work etc, and I'm not sure about Birmingham - it's possible they'd have expanded New St instead despite the very high cost, indeed I suspect they would.

However, I think a key difference would be in how they phased it.

Generally, the Teutonic approach is to gain benefit quickly. If we consider HS2 pre-COVID when most decisions were made (they may be in part obsolete now, but it's a bit late to change), I suspect they'd have built Phase 1 and Phase 2B first. The reason for this is that these two phases achieve the primary gains, namely to relieve local lines between Euston and Northampton, between Coventry and Birmingham and between Cheadle Hulme and Manchester for increased local S-Bahn traffic. The Eastern leg and the Trent Valley with lower benefits (limited relief of the commuter lines south of Peterborough) would have followed on later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2023 ==

I've made a 7/8 minute connection between Eurostar and LNWR before using Brill Place, including with a suitcase. Admittedly I was power walking. I've used the absolute shortest route before, and going via Phoenix road just feels a bit nicer to me.

15 minutes is what I plan in, and it includes enough time to use the loo and get a drink before boarding. I very rarely rush for a LNR train (unless it's the 0134!) because holding back and getting the next one gives a better chance of a seat.

 

[Matt P]

Tbf Moor Street basically already provides a Birmingham S-Bahn. The Cross-City line is kind of an awkward one but doesn't take up too much capacity at New Street. The biggest problem with New Street is that it's the central hub for XC. I don't see a 2-level X-shaped New Street being remotely viable, even with German engineering. Remember we didn't get half as flattened in WW2 and New Street is buried deep in a cutting to keep out of the way of the streets.
Berlin HbF is elevated, which makes it easier to add a second level.

I appreciate German urban redevelopment had great assistance from the RAF and USAF. The Cold War also froze redevelopment in Berlin to an extent not found elsewhere in Germany, particularly the west. However I still think Berlin HbF is an interesting contrast to HS2 particularly Curzon St.

HbF is a split level station with an low level section served by north-south lines that are in tunnels for a few km. Granted, the circumstances are different. The tunnels allowed Berlin HbF to become a major hub and also created through routes from lines that had once terminated in terminal stations (Anhalter Bahnhoff for example). The tunnels and low level platforms are used by long distance as well as regional services.

I think Curzon St is a mistake, particularly as makes connecting journeys more difficult than existing WCML services to New St. This is only partly offset by its proximity to Moor St. I cant help but think that some form of crossrail project for Birmingham would have relived some capacity at the existing New St Station and offered greater connectivity for longer distance, regional and local services that Curzon St will. Of course it would have been mightily expensive, probably more so than the existing branch off the HS2 core route into Birmingham, particularly if other capacity enhancements were delivered in tandem to tunnels, e.g Coventry to Birmingham 4 tracking.

 

[zwk500]

I think Curzon St is a mistake, particularly as makes connecting journeys more difficult than existing WCML services to New St. This is only partly offset by its proximity to Moor St. I cant help but think that some form of crossrail project for Birmingham would have relived some capacity at the existing New St Station and offered greater connectivity for longer distance, regional and local services that Curzon St will. Of course it would have been mightily expensive, probably more so than the existing branch off the HS2 core route into Birmingham, particularly if other capacity enhancements were delivered in tandem to tunnels, e.g Coventry to Birmingham 4 tracking.

With particular focus on gradients, please do explain how you'd expand New Street for 400m trains while retaining the existing rail connectivity:

You're talking about flattening a good proportion of central Birmingham to do so. I have a lot of sympathy with this proposal, but it's not remotely feasible. White distance lines mark the approximate alignment of the routes through New St.

 

[Matt P]

Generally, the Teutonic approach is to gain benefit quickly. If we consider HS2 pre-COVID when most decisions were made (they may be in part obsolete now, but it's a bit late to change), I suspect they'd have built Phase 1 and Phase 2B first. The reason for this is that these two phases achieve the primary gains, namely to relieve local lines between Euston and Northampton, between Coventry and Birmingham and between Cheadle Hulme and Manchester for increased local S-Bahn traffic. The Eastern leg and the Trent Valley with lower benefits (limited relief of the commuter lines south of Peterborough) would have followed on later.

I'd wondered if the Germans may have upgraded the ECML to provide enhanced journey times for trains from London to the North-East and Edinburgh, perhaps with some high speed cut offs, not unlike Virgin's East Coast franchise bid in the early 2000's.

That wouldn't be instead of the HS2 eastern bit but rather the eastern HS2 leg would be primary about Birmingham to Yorkshire/NE connectivity improvement rather than the full Y network being expected to become the eggs all in once basket primary route for London to the Midlands, North West, North East and Scotland.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I’m amused that anyone thinks the Germans or French would plan it any differently.

The French, naturellement, have separate high speed lines to Gare du Nord and Gare d de l’Est, which are rather closer to each other than Euston and St Pancras






I find it easy. Out the west side entrance of St P by the Thameslink barriers. Straight over the zebra crossing, and keep straight on down the left (south) side of the Francis Crick. When you get to Ossulton St, left for about 50 metres, then turn right through an arch of Levita House. Straight through the courtyard there to Chalton St (Somers Town ‘Coffee’ House on your left), straight over that zebra, through the Alley, bear left but follow the road round and you’ll see the grey hulk of the side of Euston right in front of you. At Eversholt St, cross the zebra, turn left and the side entrance is right there. 6-7 mins walk.





There’s not space for that, the link will be through the paid side along the platforms.

That doesn't sound easy. Bare in mind people would often rather take a long London Underground journey that is one train, rather than change onto the Victoria, jubilee, Crossrail to make a quicker journey. Whether that's a lack of confidence or laziness, you decide. But I think, whilst from a purely technical perspective asking people who possibly have only gone to London once or twice in their lives to walk X meters along some side streets seems reasonable, to the normal person, it's enough to put them off the whole journey. It's why I think that the decision to can the HS1-HS2 link was a bit too hasty - and somewhat mundane to be honest.

 

[zwk500]

That doesn't sound easy. Bare in mind people would often rather take a long London Underground journey that is one train, rather than change onto the Victoria, jubilee, Crossrail to make a quicker journey. Whether that's a lack of confidence or laziness, you decide.

The sense I get is that people are far happier to change on the Underground than they are on normal trains.

But I think, whilst from a purely technical perspective asking people who possibly have only gone to London once or twice in their lives to walk X meters along some side streets seems reasonable, to the normal person, it's enough to put them off the whole journey. It's why I think that the decision to can the HS1-HS2 link was a bit too hasty - and somewhat mundane to be honest.

They've managed for around 180 years without it causing a noticeable problem...

Not to include launching points from OOC is quite short sighted, IMHO, but to scrap the link was a sensible decision given the financial and operational limits of reasonableness.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The sense I get is that people are far happier to change on the Underground than they are on normal trains.

They've managed for around 180 years without it causing a noticeable problem...

Not to include launching points from OOC is quite short sighted, IMHO, but to scrap the link was a sensible decision given the financial and operational limits of reasonableness.

I think people are too, but I imagine North of London to Europe rail demand being extremely elastic, so the slightest inconvenience will push people back to flying.

No launching points certainly is saddening.

 

[Brubulus]

An elevated travelator from St Pancras to Euston would be the obvious solution. Suspend the whole thing above Euston Road, also do the same in Birmingham to link New Street, Moor Street and Curzon Street.