HS2-HS1 on foot

[BrianW]

I recently noticed the Northern most lanes of the Eastbound Euston road towards StPancras are cordoned off. Perhaps there is room for a wider pavement and/or buggies !.

Maybe with Ultra Low Emissions, EVs, more trees etc we can expect a more pleasant direct walking route soon? When is the next election?

 

[MattRat]

I wonder how much of this is any business of the railways ?. I mean this is more about integrated travel policy so have town planners etc been involved. I guess the question is - where does the money come from to potentially improve this ?.

It occurs to me that someone who cannot walk from Euston to StPancras would already struggle to walk the length of a train platform. Currently there are electric buggies provided at many stations to cater for mobility impaired people. Perhaps the vehicles at Kings cross and Euston should be allowed to stray between the two stations ?. As you say - it is not many people. Plus judging by the number I see using said transport within Euston and Kings Cross it seems to be true.

Could a proportion of the route East - West be covered ?. Just where possible.

I think the biggest improvement would be an East side entrance to Euston that had an overhead walkway across the platforms of Euston and Euston HS2. Granted the concourse of Euston it not that far from the newish East-West route as it is fairly distant from the dreaded Euston road !. I have no idea of the exact location of the HS2 concourse in relation to the Euston Road btw ?.

Well, to get the buggies across, you'd probably need something. Just because someone can walk a route doesn't mean it can fit a buggy.

 

[Shrop]

That is the trouble with reality it can be disappointing.

If people had always focussed on why we couldn't do things, we would have none of the ground breaking inventions like aeroplanes, telephones, computers etc, it's because some people are prepared to take a leap of faith that we make progress.

The railways have never been rolling in money

HS2 will provide a marginally improved link between cities that are already well served, while failing to provide the much bigger improvements between northern cities that were promised in order to get the project off the ground. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

 

[The Planner]

. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

That will be the proverbial red rag on here. As teachers often say "show your working".

 

[YorksLad12]

Can't help but feel we will rue the construction of the British Library on that site.

Otherwise we could have put HS2 into the King's Cross St Pancras complex, and shortened the distance between Euston and that complex.

Speaking as a Member and a holder of a Reading Room ticket, you keep your hands off!

To be fair, St Pancras was a bit run down at the time; BR had tried to close it in the 1960. The revival only started in the mid-1990s with the hotel, then the Eurostar services in the mid-2000s.

Was it really that early?

My understanding was the library building only opened in the late 90s?

Did it really take that long to build?

The original plan was to demolish a chunk of Bloomsbury! But it did have a tortuous design and build process (I've been looking for a link, I was only vaguely aware at the time). I always thought the Piazza to be too large and not very well laid out; inside has its quirks as well. You can see why they have plans to extend; it's a popular venue, not just as a place of study.

I recently noticed the Northern most lanes of the Eastbound Euston road towards StPancras are cordoned off. Perhaps there is room for a wider pavement and/or buggies !.

That's for a cycle path. You now can't turn into Ossulston Street either, unless you're on a bicycle. Sadly, this has encouraged the Pullman St Pancras to dump tables and chairs outside for a crap cafe area. Some of the other side roads are being biked up.

 

[JonathanH]

I would assume a station built there would be in a relatively deep box and would go into tunnel almost from the platform ends.

This site plan for the British Library Extension demonstrates that it would need to go somewhat deep to even just miss the Northern Line and Victoria Line tunnels. The interesting thing about the British Library Extension works is that they have enabling works for Crossrail 2 that is now completely off the agenda.

https://blextension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020-10-09_Revised-Site-constraints-plan.pdf

In terms of relevance to HS2-HS1 on foot, the construction of the British Library extension through from 2023 to 2029 would change the ambiance of the current Dangoor Walk route.

 

[Bald Rick]

If people had always focussed on why we couldn't do things, we would have none of the ground breaking inventions like aeroplanes, telephones, computers etc, it's because some people are prepared to take a leap of faith that we make progress.

I quite agree. The people who looked into this particular issue went in specifically looking at what could be done. You’ve heard the answers.

I’ll ask again, what other specific solutions do you think are practical and possible?

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

The reason we have HS2 is exactly because people thought “outside the box”. Building a brand new, high speed railway between the three largest metropolitan areas of the country is rather radical for British thinking, no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2022 ==

This site plan for the British Library Extension demonstrates that it would need to go somewhat deep to even just miss the Northern Line and Victoria Line tunnels. The interesting thing about the British Library Extension works is that they have enabling works for Crossrail 2 that is now completely off the agenda.

https://blextension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020-10-09_Revised-Site-constraints-plan.pdf

View attachment 108346

Super map, and shows perfectly why building underground there is, ahem, challenging.

 

[MattRat]

HS2 will provide a marginally improved link between cities that are already well served, while failing to provide the much bigger improvements between northern cities that were promised in order to get the project off the ground. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

Gareth Dennis actually makes a great argument about how HS2 improves capacity much better than 'minor' upgrades. Basically it comes down to future resilience and freeing track up for freight and commuter services.

 

[Shrop]

The reason we have HS2 is exactly because people thought “outside the box”. Building a brand new, high speed railway between the three largest metropolitan areas of the country is rather radical for British thinking, no?

No, it's not radical. It's what many other countries have done well ahead of the UK, they've also taken far less time about it, and they haven't ended up with just half a project. And if that's radical for British thinking, it only shows how much we've allowed other countries to overtake us where we used to lead the world.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, it's not radical. It's what many other countries have done well ahead of the UK, they've also taken far less time about it, and they haven't ended up with just half a project. And if that's radical for British thinking, it only shows how much we've allowed other countries to overtake us where we used to lead the world.

Earlier you were arguing that thinking outside of the box would have been upgrades to existing lines (which is what this country has done for the last century, HS1 excepted). And now you are saying that building a new line was not radical thinking. I’m afraid I’m confused.

Anyway it doesn’t answer my question. What radical, yet practical solution could be implemented to solve this problem between Euston and St Pancras?

 

[Shrop]

Earlier you were arguing that thinking outside of the box would have been upgrades to existing lines (which is what this country has done for the last century, HS1 excepted). And now you are saying that building a new line was not radical thinking. I’m afraid I’m confused.

Could you point to what post I've made that makes you say this?

Anyway it doesn’t answer my question. What radical, yet practical solution could be implemented to solve this problem between Euston and St Pancras?

I don't claim to have a radical yet practical solution, I'm just asking that we give a bit more time to "Okay, let's see how far we can go with that", even if it does conclude with "It doesn't actually work". I think some people do this the wrong way round, ie by adopting the latter point as a default position, and then seeking a way to justify why it doesn't work. That's too much like politicians desperately seeking ways to discredit the opposition even when they might actually have good ideas.
Of course it's not worth spending time and money on some fantasies when experience shows that they really won't ever work, but there is a middle ground of "Maybe". The valuable experience that many have (I'm sure yourself included), should sometimes be a little more open and less dismissive about this area of "Maybe".

 

[jfollows]

Anyway it doesn’t answer my question. What radical, yet practical solution could be implemented to solve this problem between Euston and St Pancras?

There's a lot of interesting discussion here.

I, like others here, "discovered" a good walking route and I like the fact that it's a "secret", but the reality is that if it were better advertised and signed that'd suffice for me. All the major road crossings for pedestrians are already catered for with crossings. It's flat. I have some walking impairment yet I can make it without difficulty with a wheeled case and have done. The pavements are wide enough.

Others mentioned Manchester Piccadilly-Victoria, which is probably a bit further. Likewise, not well signed. The best route involved turns, which aren't obvious, otherwise pedestrians encounter unpleasant road crossings. The council wrote something a couple of years ago about putting up signs as if it were a major revelation, but the truth is that nobody seems to care or feel a duty of care for pedestrians.

I expect this London walking route to continue its "secret" existence for some time yet, and that's fine with me, but really oughtn't be the case.

 

[edwin_m]

Could you point to what post I've made that makes you say this?

I don't claim to have a radical yet practical solution, I'm just asking that we give a bit more time to "Okay, let's see how far we can go with that", even if it does conclude with "It doesn't actually work". I think some people do this the wrong way round, ie by adopting the latter point as a default position, and then seeking a way to justify why it doesn't work. That's too much like politicians desperately seeking ways to discredit the opposition even when they might actually have good ideas.
Of course it's not worth spending time and money on some fantasies when experience shows that they really won't ever work, but there is a middle ground of "Maybe". The valuable experience that many have (I'm sure yourself included), should sometimes be a little more open and less dismissive about this area of "Maybe".

I think that is exactly what the likes of @Bald Rick have already done, but unfortunately can't tell us the details, for what are probably sensible reasons (I suggested earlier what one of them might be).

The subject of this thread, which you started so presumably have chosen, refers to "on foot". So anything else is off-topic!

 

[SynthD]

The proposals for these projects typically discuss the alternatives considered and why they chose the one you know of. That applies to HS2 (ie an extra pair of tracks on the WCML) but maybe not to this link. Did the denial of the rail link include a comment, or a few detailed pages, on what passenger share they expect to be finding their own way between the two and how?

 

[MattRat]

The subject of this thread, which you started so presumably have chosen, refers to "on foot". So anything else is off-topic!

So I guess we need a new thread for the electric buggies, as that's something important that has been brought up. Or you could just ignore disabled people I guess, it's what the government do....

 

[AndyMike]

I think these might be directed at me.

two things:

1) it doesn’t ignore the people who would make the journey if the connection was better. Even if every single person who flies from Birmingham, East Mids, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh to Paris or Brussels decided to use the train instead, it would amount to about 3 extra people a minute each way between Euston and St Pancras in service hours. This is based on Pre covid passenger numbers. And I’m sorry, but changing what will be a well signed, reasonably pleasant 10 minute amble between the two stations into a moving walkway or people mover isn’t going to convince very many of the fliers to suddenly take the train, even if HS2 worked at light speed and was free.

2) as I have explained - evidently not very well - this specific issue has been looked at. Many solutions (some of which are upthread) are simply not practical - mostly on a social economic basis, but sometimes because of the laws of physics. This is not about not being ‘open minded’, it is simply explaining how these things work in the real world with real survey data and an understanding of what challenges need to be overcome.


I’ll ask again, what practical solutions are there?

Again, I’m not advocating a moving walkway or a people mover. Just a well-designed walking route, suitably provisioned for those with less mobility.

 

[quantinghome]

If people had always focussed on why we couldn't do things, we would have none of the ground breaking inventions like aeroplanes, telephones, computers etc, it's because some people are prepared to take a leap of faith that we make progress.

HS2 will provide a marginally improved link between cities that are already well served, while failing to provide the much bigger improvements between northern cities that were promised in order to get the project off the ground. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

So what's your 'thinking outside the box' alternative to HS2?

 

[Senex]

The reason we have HS2 is exactly because people thought “outside the box”. Building a brand new, high speed railway between the three largest metropolitan areas of the country is rather radical for British thinking, no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2022 ==

Not really. If we never thought outisde the box about connecting major areas, how is it that amongst the very earliest connections were London to Birmingham and Birmingham to the Liverpool & Manchester (itself the first "inter-city" railway), thus linking London, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool before the end of the 1830s? (And just like HS2 you even had to reverse in Birmingham to get to Manchester!)

 

[Bald Rick]

Could you point to what post I've made that makes you say this?

of course. Here:

HS2 will provide a marginally improved link between cities that are already well served, while failing to provide the much bigger improvements between northern cities that were promised in order to get the project off the ground. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

then here:

No, it's not radical. It's what many other countries have done well ahead of the UK, they've also taken far less time about it, and they haven't ended up with just half a project.

I don't claim to have a radical yet practical solution, I'm just asking that we give a bit more time to "Okay, let's see how far we can go with that", even if it does conclude with "It doesn't actually work".

‘We’ have done exactly that, but it is not good form to do it all on the pages of an internet forum, as that ends up worrying an awful lot of people (local residents and the like) unnecessarily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

Not really. If we never thought outisde the box about connecting major areas, how is it that amongst the very earliest connections were London to Birmingham and Birmingham to the Liverpool & Manchester (itself the first "inter-city" railway), thus linking London, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool before the end of the 1830s? (And just like HS2 you even had to reverse in Birmingham to get to Manchester!)

hence my qualifier in my next post of “in the last century”

 

[BrianW]

I think that is exactly what the likes of @Bald Rick have already done, but unfortunately can't tell us the details, for what are probably sensible reasons (I suggested earlier what one of them might be).

The subject of this thread, which you started so presumably have chosen, refers to "on foot". So anything else is off-topic!

Do these count? https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/tag/hoverboard/

Or these? https://in.askmen.com/fine-living-n...life-james-bond-jetpack-could-be-on-sale-soon

Only askin' ...

 

[Mikey C]

This site plan for the British Library Extension demonstrates that it would need to go somewhat deep to even just miss the Northern Line and Victoria Line tunnels. The interesting thing about the British Library Extension works is that they have enabling works for Crossrail 2 that is now completely off the agenda.

https://blextension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020-10-09_Revised-Site-constraints-plan.pdf

View attachment 108346

In terms of relevance to HS2-HS1 on foot, the construction of the British Library extension through from 2023 to 2029 would change the ambiance of the current Dangoor Walk route.

I assume that extension was planned for from the start, and the land protected, as it's most unusual to have undeveloped land in central London for such a long time

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

 

[YorksLad12]

I assume that extension was planned for from the start, and the land protected, as it's most unusual to have undeveloped land in central London for such a long time

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

Looking the rest of that website, yes; all the land for the original development has been secured, it's just that they only did the first bit, then build the Conservation Centre on another part. That, the Alan Turing Centre and the surface car park & garden will go and replaced in some form; but they're all within the BL's land boundary.

The cross-section views from Ossulston Street are interesting - if the Underground and Tube lines are to scale, they're quite tiny (and there's five, not six). Would it be cheeky to suggest they dig out enough space for Crossrail 2 as originally planned, then use it to create a subterranean walking route from Euston to St Pancras and Kings Cross? The Euston St Pancras station would have had entrances at each station anyway...

 

[Shrop]

So what's your 'thinking outside the box' alternative to HS2?

As others have already pointed out, this thread is about HS2-HS1 on foot so I won't elaborate here. Others have also pointed out that HS2 and alternatives to it have already been discussed at length previously, albeit a good bit of it before I joined the forum I think.
However, I do think HS2 is badly designed and I would be happy to elaborate if you wanted to start a new thread, or even privately if you prefer ...

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be cheeky to suggest they dig out enough space for Crossrail 2 as originally planned, then use it to create a subterranean walking route from Euston to St Pancras and Kings Cross? The Euston St Pancras station would have had entrances at each station anyway...

very cheeky!

it wouldn’t get planning permission, as TfL would direct its refusal through safeguarding. Unless, of course, the proposal was to build the Crossrail2 station itself, but then someone would need to cough the best part of a billion quid.

 

[Shrop]

of course. Here:

Shrop said:
No, it's not radical. It's what many other countries have done well ahead of the UK, they've also taken far less time about it, and they haven't ended up with just half a project.

The above is incomplete but it would be cumbersome to meaningfully include the whole dialogue. However I'm not sure how you managed to interpret my comments in the way that you have.

If you’d like to ask a direct question about what I mean then feel free. I’m not in favour of the approach of “Ah but you said this etc, and therefore you meant that”, unless it’s really obvious. In this case it seems that confusion has arisen so please clarify your question ...

 

[Peter Sarf]

If people had always focussed on why we couldn't do things, we would have none of the ground breaking inventions like aeroplanes, telephones, computers etc, it's because some people are prepared to take a leap of faith that we make progress.

HS2 will provide a marginally improved link between cities that are already well served, while failing to provide the much bigger improvements between northern cities that were promised in order to get the project off the ground. People argue that it's all about capacity relief, but there always were much better and cheaper ways to achieve that. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "never been rolling in money".

I expect once again to be criticised for these comments because of course there are people who think only inside the box of finding reasons to say no. Have we really lost our ability to think outside the box a bit more?

I think a lot has been looked into already. We are perhaps coming to the debate after a lot of options have been gone through before this thread started.

I quite agree. The people who looked into this particular issue went in specifically looking at what could be done. You’ve heard the answers.

I’ll ask again, what other specific solutions do you think are practical and possible?

The reason we have HS2 is exactly because people thought “outside the box”. Building a brand new, high speed railway between the three largest metropolitan areas of the country is rather radical for British thinking, no?


.................

My bold

No, it's not radical. It's what many other countries have done well ahead of the UK, they've also taken far less time about it, and they haven't ended up with just half a project. And if that's radical for British thinking, it only shows how much we've allowed other countries to overtake us where we used to lead the world.

I think @Bald Rick was saying above that it is radical for the UK. I also think it is.

Could you point to what post I've made that makes you say this?

I don't claim to have a radical yet practical solution, I'm just asking that we give a bit more time to "Okay, let's see how far we can go with that", even if it does conclude with "It doesn't actually work". I think some people do this the wrong way round, ie by adopting the latter point as a default position, and then seeking a way to justify why it doesn't work. That's too much like politicians desperately seeking ways to discredit the opposition even when they might actually have good ideas.
Of course it's not worth spending time and money on some fantasies when experience shows that they really won't ever work, but there is a middle ground of "Maybe". The valuable experience that many have (I'm sure yourself included), should sometimes be a little more open and less dismissive about this area of "Maybe".

You are suggesting a requirement for a better walking route I presume ?. A lot of replies in this thread have come up with interesting possibilities and (interesting) problems.

Its getting heated isn't it !.

 

[quantinghome]

As others have already pointed out, this thread is about HS2-HS1 on foot so I won't elaborate here. Others have also pointed out that HS2 and alternatives to it have already been discussed at length previously, albeit a good bit of it before I joined the forum I think.
However, I do think HS2 is badly designed and I would be happy to elaborate if you wanted to start a new thread, or even privately if you prefer ...

True, we're heading off-thread.

If you have an outside the box alternative to HS2 I'd be happy to engage in that discussion - please start a new thread if you like.

 

[plugwash]

Last time I looked (several years ago now) there was a signed walking route via Brill Place.

There is an attempt to signpost a walking route from Euston to Kings cross via Eversholt St, Pheonix road, Brill place and St Pancras. The signs were Still there when I passed through last summer and still appear on google street view, so I presume they are still there.

However the sign placement at the Junction Between Eversholt St and Pheonix road is poor. There is no sign on Eversholt St indicating the need to turn, just a sign some distance down Pheonix road that is easily missed. I'm fairly sure I missed it the first time I tried to walk the route.

I notice that most if not all of the signs on the route are attatched to lampposts. I guess whoever signposted the route was able to get the cooperation of the council division responsible for lampposts, but was not able to get cooperation from NR to attatch a sign to the outside of Euston Station.

 

[YorksLad12]

very cheeky!

it wouldn’t get planning permission, as TfL would direct its refusal through safeguarding. Unless, of course, the proposal was to build the Crossrail2 station itself, but then someone would need to cough the best part of a billion quid.

That was pretty much exactly what I meant. Build the station box and running tunnels, close them off (to stop someone holding a rave there!) but leave the walkways open. Then add the rails when required and the connections at either end to the rest of the Crossrail 2 tunnels when built.

It's a daft idea, but no dafter than some of the stuff that appears on here. And no dafter than some of the stuff that gets to be built.

 

[Bald Rick]

That was pretty much exactly what I meant. Build the station box and running tunnels, close them off (to stop someone holding a rave there!) but leave the walkways open. Then add the rails when required and the connections at either end to the rest of the Crossrail 2 tunnels when built.

It's a daft idea, but no dafter than some of the stuff that appears on here. And no dafter than some of the stuff that gets to be built.

ah. There’s no station box as such. It’s two platform tunnels, with escalator shafts down to each end through large excavated pits. But I see what you’re getting at, and £££££ please!