HS2-HS1 link - will it happen within the next 20 years?

[och aye]

In the age of the "climate crisis" and flying being frowned upon in environmental quarters, I do wonder if there is a chance that the HS2-HS1 link might have a possibility of being resurrected as part of or after section 2a and 2b are built or unlikely to be built within the next 20 years? I know there varying factors like change in governments, economic recessions etc. but I wonder if the possibility of international trains from Birmingham and Manchester to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam, and thus (in theory) reduce carbon and allow people to have more flexible trips to continental Europe i.e. time taken to get to the airport, security, baggage restrictions (bring as much fancy French wine and Belgian beer as you can carry ).

Perhaps its just nice idea I have, and it isn't financially feasible. I'd love to know folks thoughts on it though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, as there is basically no point - enhancing the link between Euston and St Pancras should be a priority as this allows an hourly connection, not a bitty, occasional one.

Also don't forget duty free limits now apply!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think the main trouble with this is there is just not enough demand. Lightly loaded, smaller flights from Birmingham to Paris are likely just to give way to electric aviation over the next few years.

That said, I think creating a through station with the view to extend the Javelin services towards Heathrow and possibly on a new alignment towards Southampton, would give a great excuse to provide through international services.

The only trouble is there is nowhere on HS2 or HS1 to place an underground junction. So any link would likely be a radial route around the M25 which would have the same problem the Northern Heights extension had that is running a railway through Green Belt!

 

[zwk500]

Can't see it happening until the UK joins Schengen, and whatever your position on the rights or wrongs of that (which is NOT for this thread), it politically (and administratively) can't happen in the next 5-10 years, which is probably what would need to happen for the Hs1/2 Link to be built.

Until we join Schengen, the costs involved in odd stations having random connections to the continent will make such services uneconomic, and the demand in London is very strongly to the city centre or other termini, with Stratford and it's shopping centre being very much not for people from Birmingham/Manchester etc, who have their own shopping centres at the Bullring/Trafford Park. Freight won't be running on HS2, so the existing connections are fine for those services.

Services from beyond London to the continent regularly come up on threads here. The problems are just too great for the meager benefits. Birmingham and Manchester trains terminate a 10/20-minute walk away from the Eurostar terminals. What should be looked at is integrated ticketing (or at least a guaranteed itinerary, so that if you are delayed inbound to Euston you are automatically rebooked on the next E*), so that people have greater confidence in making journeys from outside London.

 

[Bald Rick]

No. Simple reason - coming back to build the link after HS2 is open will be much more difficult and disruptive (and therefore expensive) than had it been built from the off.

Also requires Schengen, as above.

 

[Gareth]

The UK's not joining Schengen anytime soon. Most likely never.

 

[zwk500]

The UK's not joining Schengen anytime soon. Most likely never.

Agreed. Politically, it would be nigh on impossible for at least 20 years.

 

[Clansman]

A HS1 to HS2 link doesn't necessarily require international services. If I remember rightly, domestic demand was overlooked when studies into a potential link were being done and a few organisations which support the link use this as an argument for reconsideration in the long term.

 

[paul1609]

A HS1 to HS2 link doesn't necessarily require international services. If I remember rightly, domestic demand was overlooked when studies into a potential link were being done and a few organisations which support the link use this as an argument for reconsideration in the long term.

Living on (a branch off) HS1 I'm not sure there would be much demand for domestic cross London travel. All the Global City facilities are provided by London. If you want to travel further than that from Ashford both Paris and Brussels are closer than Manchester both geographically and in terms of journey time. If you travel on Thameslink the only noticeable Cross London traffic is to the airports going north the Trains empty at London Bridge and fill up again at St Pancras. I'm not saying there's no demand just not enough to justify a multi billion link.

 

[Ianno87]

Living on (a branch off) HS1 I'm not sure there would be much demand for domestic cross London travel. All the Global City facilities are provided by London. If you want to travel further than that from Ashford both Paris and Brussels are closer than Manchester both geographically and in terms of journey time. If you travel on Thameslink the only noticeable Cross London traffic is to the airports going north the Trains empty at London Bridge and fill up again at St Pancras. I'm not saying there's no demand just not enough to justify a multi billion link.

If the infrastructure were cheap and easy, it would be a "no brainer". But with a price tag into the billions (and the local impact in Camden) it simply isn't worth it relative to the likely demand.

 

[adamedwards]

How much would a Euston to St Pancras people mover cost? Say with an international terminal at Euston and a direct link from that on to the Eurostar platforms, like an airport satalitte link. I would guess much cheaper and only a bit longer than Waterloo to Waterloo East.

 

[zwk500]

How much would a Euston to St Pancras people mover cost? Say with an international terminal at Euston and a direct link from that on to the Eurostar platforms, like an airport satalitte link. I would guess much cheaper and only a bit longer than Waterloo to Waterloo East.

Aside from the fact that 3 people movers already exist: Victoria, Northern and Circle/Hammersmith & City/Metropolitan lines, why would you build an international terminal at Euston for trains not serving that terminal? It would shut off the rather large contingent of domestic passengers who look to transfer between King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston.

The walk up Phoenix Road and the back of the British Library is fine, it just needs better signage all around, better lighting and possibly wider pavements.

 

[SargeNpton]

Any thought of an HS1 to HS2 link was probably abandoned when a sub-surface station under Pentonville Road, with east-west platforms, for HS1 was replaced by the revamp of St Pancras.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the infrastructure were cheap and easy, it would be a "no brainer". But with a price tag into the billions (and the local impact in Camden) it simply isn't worth it relative to the likely demand.

I'm not sure even then it is. What's more useful? One train a day through, or an hourly connection for most of the day, during which you could have a pleasant wander* between the two stations, maybe pick up lunch along the way or something? If you're making a train journey of more than about 4-5 hours, breaking it up slightly is a virtue, not a vice.

*Yes, I know, it isn't really at the moment, more like walking through the back of a slightly dodgy feeling estate - but it could be, probably for a fraction of the price of building the link railway.

 

[Ianno87]

Any thought of an HS1 to HS2 link was probably abandoned when a sub-surface station under Pentonville Road, with east-west platforms, for HS1 was replaced by the revamp of St Pancras.

No it wasn't..a connection through Camden was in serious consideration until around 2014 or so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2021 ==

I'm not sure even then it is. What's more useful? One train a day through, or an hourly connection for most of the day, during which you could have a pleasant wander* between the two stations, maybe pick up lunch along the way or something? If you're making a train journey of more than about 4-5 hours, breaking it up slightly is a virtue, not a vice.

*Yes, I know, it isn't really at the moment, more like walking through the back of a slightly dodgy feeling estate - but it could be, probably for a fraction of the price of building the link railway.

By "cheap and easy" I mean a crossover or a chord. The sort of thing that you get chance to build with HS2 for a small maginal cost, or otherwise not at all. The HS1-HS2 link through Camden was very much not that.

Look at the various chords linking to the NLL/ECML/MML off HS1. In those cases, easy and cheap to build at the same time as HS1, with plenty of space to do so.

I do agree that through demand can easily be satisfied by a change of stations in London, with a greater range of departures per day.

 

[zwk500]

*Yes, I know, it isn't really at the moment, more like walking through the back of a slightly dodgy feeling estate - but it could be, probably for a fraction of the price of building the link railway.

It really needs 2 things to make it better: Footfall, and wider pavements. Footfall could be improved with much better signage - the current ones are visible but only if you're looking out for them, and signage on the 3 concourses is next to useless. At the moment it's easier to tell people 'go down Euston Road' than 'follow the signs' which is somewhat ludicrous. Wider pavements (and better crossing points) is slightly harder to do, but those roads are overly narrow at the moment so it could be done.

I'm sure there was a HS2 consultation on it, although I can only find Camden Council's proposals: https://consultations.wearecamden.o...rting_documents/Stage2 Feasibility Report.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

It really needs 2 things to make it better: Footfall, and wider pavements. Footfall could be improved with much better signage - the current ones are visible but only if you're looking out for them, and signage on the 3 concourses is next to useless. At the moment it's easier to tell people 'go down Euston Road' than 'follow the signs' which is somewhat ludicrous. Wider pavements (and better crossing points) is slightly harder to do, but those roads are overly narrow at the moment so it could be done.

I'm sure there was a HS2 consultation on it, although I can only find Camden Council's proposals: https://consultations.wearecamden.org/supporting-communities/greening-phoenix-road/supporting_documents/Stage2 Feasibility Report.pdf

There’s a DfT report into why the rail link was binned, mentions an “enhanced walking route” but only in very broad terms.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480372/HS2-HS1_report.pdf

 

[camflyer]

Of all of the possible "enhancements" to HS2, a direct link to HS1 makes little sense. It would be expensive and not serve a particularly large market. Is there really the capacity demand for direct Birmingham to Paris or Manchester to Brussels rail services?

Better to put the money into making the Euston-St Pancras-Kings Cross hub as easy use as possible by treating them a single megastation connecting HS1, HS2, ECML, WCML, MML, Thameslink, tube services, Crossrail - and hopefully Crossrail 2.

 

[Bald Rick]

Better to put the money into making the Euston-St Pancras-Kings Cross hub as easy use as possible by treating them a single megastation connecting HS1, HS2, ECML, WCML, MML, Thameslink, tube services, Crossrail - and hopefully Crossrail 2.

Crossrail 2 would have done - as the station was going to be between the two. Albeit a long way down, and you’d need to go through two sets of barriers!