HS2 High Salaries - Value?

[matacaster]

HS2 has employed some of the most highly paid public sector directors, senior staff, project managers, technical experts etc.

There appears to have been some poor decision-making, poor cost control matched by commensurate ability to move on having got their coin before the sh"* hits the fan. Perhaps paying considerably less basic salary and having completion bonus might be the way forward. If the maximum salary had been say £100,000 with a significant completion bonus would we really be much worse off?

 

[156gricer]

The whole rail industry has milked, and taken advantage of, HS2. Hence the mess it’s in now

 

[civ-eng-jim]

HS2 has employed some of the most highly paid public sector directors, senior staff, project managers, technical experts etc.

Can you provide some figures for these roles? Otherwise it's a baseless argument.

 

[Horizon22]

HS2 has employed some of the most highly paid public sector directors, senior staff, project managers, technical experts etc.

There appears to have been some poor decision-making, poor cost control matched by commensurate ability to move on having got their coin before the sh"* hits the fan. Perhaps paying considerably less basic salary and having completion bonus might be the way forward. If the maximum salary had been say £100,000 with a significant completion bonus would we really be much worse off?

£100K/year? For the highest paid employee of a company employing thousands in a skilled industry? That really is non-sensical.

Limiting wages tends not to be good for talent or morale.

 

[The Planner]

HS2 has employed some of the most highly paid public sector directors, senior staff, project managers, technical experts etc.

There appears to have been some poor decision-making, poor cost control matched by commensurate ability to move on having got their coin before the sh"* hits the fan. Perhaps paying considerably less basic salary and having completion bonus might be the way forward. If the maximum salary had been say £100,000 with a significant completion bonus would we really be much worse off?

Significant amount of people in NR earning over that, and you don't need to be anywhere near exec level.

 

[Taunton]

Can you provide some figures for these roles? Otherwise it's a baseless argument.

Chief Executive £645,000. Highest paid public official in the country.

This for a project which has been progressively descoped, and has blown its budgets by the greatest amount, and percentage, of any.

 

[RobShipway]

But the loans for the budget are working on the percentage value of today which is 12%. The Government should have created the budget for HS2 when loans where at 2.8% and said that this is the budget for the project with no more able to be spent on it that what that budget had within it. This is I believe what countries around Europe have been doing for years when it comes to building high speed lines. Whereas as the UK Government has paid a bit here and a bit there over the years, which has then cost it more to build HS2.

The same issues if I remember correctly occurred with building HS1, which had to be built in sections so that the country could afford it. Due to the cost of the first section of HS1 where trains went into Waterloo International, there was calls then for the section to St Pancras to be cancelled due to the cost. So it seems that history is repeating itself.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Chief Executive £645,000. Highest paid public official in the country.

That's the headline-grabbing figure but what about all the other roles matacaster listed?

 

[Pretendolino]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1179257/26580_HS2_Annual_Report_2022-2023_CS1813_WEB_accessible_reduced.pdf

See page 51 onward for Remuneration and Staff Report.


You may also look at high salaries across fhe cabinet office here:

Cabinet Office senior officials 'high earners' salaries

List of senior civil servants and senior officials in departments, agencies and non-departmental public bodies earning £150,000 and above.

www.gov.uk

For Network Rail, you should be able to see them in £20k bandings here:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Staff-salary-breakdown-in-20k-bands-2023.xlsx

 

[matacaster]

Just to make it clearer I am not against high reward for exceptional performance. What I am against is the 'we must use the brightest and best at any cost' mantra. Don't forget many people get to the top by knowing the right people, brown-nosing or by making timely moves before being found out. At the BBC for instance, being your daddies son (or other relative at BBC) is an excellent way to get career advancement.

 

[Wynd]

Chief exec for £under a milli, for a project of that scale and visibility?

Im surprised they found someone to take it on.

£100k for a senior engineering role with significant levels of responsibility and accountability? Pretty average.

Shows how out of touch some of the editors of the publications headlining this are, or how motivated their owners and paymasters are to drive wedge politics.

Worse still, it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the various scandals the Torys and aristocracy of the UK are up to their necks in.

£40B on PPE? Richest individual in the state dodges inheritance tax, and is getting a 45% pay rise? Both far more important.

Total non-story designed to distract the mind and confound the senses.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

The construction industry as a whole in the UK have had HS2's pants down.

 

[The Planner]

The construction industry as a whole in the UK have had HS2's pants down.

They have any major engineering projects underwear as a matter of course.

 

[matacaster]

Significant amount of people in NR earning over that, and you don't need to be anywhere near exec level.

Some will earn it and deserve it others likely not. What I am saying is if these people are so good, then a significant amount of their remuneration should be in the form of actual (not fudged) measurable success. Many people have received high salaries at HS2 yet have patently failed and have moved on to bigger and better messes. Just a reminder that MPs warn around £84k and even prime minister, who is making much bigger decisions only gets circa £150k. Are these executives making bigger decisions than the prime minister?

 

[12LDA28C]

The whole rail industry has milked, and taken advantage of, HS2. Hence the mess it’s in now

Not true, although you could probably include a good proportion of the construction industry and its supply chain plus many 'consultants'.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

They have any major engineering projects underwear as a matter of course.

Sir John Armitt managed to keep a reasonable lid on the Olympic games though?

 

[The Planner]

Sir John Armitt managed to keep a reasonable lid on the Olympic games though?

Three times over its original costs?

The Olympic Legacy – worth the cost?

Ten years on - what is the legacy of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games?

www.london.gov.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2023 ==

Some will earn it and deserve it others likely not. What I am saying is if these people are so good, then a significant amount of their remuneration should be in the form of actual (not fudged) measurable success. Many people have received high salaries at HS2 yet have patently failed and have moved on to bigger and better messes. Just a reminder that MPs warn around £84k and even prime minister, who is making much bigger decisions only gets circa £150k. Are these executives making bigger decisions than the prime minister?

Not sure MPs are a good comparison to be honest with their history.

 

[Technologist]

Not true, although you could probably include a good proportion of the construction industry and its supply chain plus many 'consultants'.

If HS2 was a long term "department for building rail" they could have brought a lot of roles in house and filled them over time with people developed internally. Much cheaper and much more effective.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Three times over

Three times over its original costs?

Does that include converting the stadium for West Ham and the pool for community use?

Even so that's interesting I was always under the impression that the overspend was minimised once he was brought on-board

 

[The Planner]

Does that include converting the stadium for West Ham and the pool for community use?

Even so that's interesting I was always under the impression that the overspend was minimised once he was brought on-board

West Ham didnt pay for it, did they?

 

[Energy]

West Ham didnt pay for it, did they?

£148.8m from the exchequer
£40m from Newham Council in exchange for 35% stake
£40m from the Olympic budget
£25m further from the government
£3.5m from London Marathon Charitable Trust
£1m from UK athletics

Currently West Ham pay £2.5m in rent per year.

 

[The Planner]

£148.8m from the exchequer
£40m from Newham Council in exchange for 35% stake
£40m from the Olympic budget
£25m further from the government
£3.5m from London Marathon Charitable Trust
£1m from UK athletics

Currently West Ham pay £2.5m in rent per year.

So 250 odd million quid at 2.5 a year. Bargain for the Hammers!

 

[Taunton]

That's the headline-grabbing figure but what about all the other roles matacaster listed?

Well this could just go on for ever.

"No, provide some figures, otherwise it's baseless".
Figures provided.
"No, that's just the headline grabber. What about all the others".
Evening spent assembling these.
"No, you haven't done a comparison with other projects".
Comparison finally found.
"No, that's not comparable ...".
etc.

If one wants these figures, why not ask the project accountants? They have done blow all else that has been useful, or (it now turns out) accurate, but they ought to be able to at least look up the payroll reports for this.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

West Ham didnt pay for it, did they?

No they didn't but don't get me started on that one!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2023 ==

£148.8m from the exchequer
£40m from Newham Council in exchange for 35% stake
£40m from the Olympic budget
£25m further from the government
£3.5m from London Marathon Charitable Trust
£1m from UK athletics

Currently West Ham pay £2.5m in rent per year.

Scandal really.

I don't want to send this wildly off topic and I'm no fan of Man City ,PSG, Newcastle and how they conduct things but if that isn't state interference into football I don't know what is.

 

[zwk500]

Just a reminder that MPs warn around £84k and even prime minister, who is making much bigger decisions only gets circa £150k. Are these executives making bigger decisions than the prime minister?

A reminder that MPs are allowed to take lots of consulting (other words might be used) fees alongside their £84k, in addition to being able to claim a vast amount of expense back on top of their salary. HS2 was competing (in theory) for the best of the private sector, and so was going after people in high demand, who could largely see what state the project was in (you don't get to run companies without being good at something), and so would need a lot of persuading to join HS2 instead of better offers.
Also, for all the focus on Chief Exec's, their role on HS2 would have been akin to the captain of an ocean liner. Your control is limited to what the sea and weather let you do. Given all the other pressures buffeting the project, there's nothing to say getting anybody else or compensating them differently would have achieved anything better. Land value in London would still have been astronomical, political fingers would still have been all over it, etc.

 

[Manutd1999]

If HS2 was a long term "department for building rail" they could have brought a lot of roles in house and filled them over time with people developed internally. Much cheaper and much more effective.

100% agree.

Consultancies are not all bad and can work very well - IF they are used properly. Ie, when are they given specific, well defined tasks which cannot easily be done in-house (e.g. niche skills, reviews).

Too often the opposite happens. They are awarded long, open-ended and poorly scoped tasks which inevitably overrun, costing way more than it should. Even worse, they start to act as expensive recruitment agencies, supplying staff on long-term T&M contracts with zero added value.

 

[Kingston Dan]

A reminder that MPs are allowed to take lots of consulting (other words might be used) fees alongside their £84k, in addition to being able to claim a vast amount of expense back on top of their salary. HS2 was competing (in theory) for the best of the private sector, and so was going after people in high demand, who could largely see what state the project was in (you don't get to run companies without being good at something), and so would need a lot of persuading to join HS2 instead of better offers.
Also, for all the focus on Chief Exec's, their role on HS2 would have been akin to the captain of an ocean liner. Your control is limited to what the sea and weather let you do. Given all the other pressures buffeting the project, there's nothing to say getting anybody else or compensating them differently would have achieved anything better. Land value in London would still have been astronomical, political fingers would still have been all over it, etc.

Indeed this is a particularly egregious example:

ANDREW PIERCE: Davey's earned £275k from firm that hunted postmasters

ANDREW PIERCE: From 2010 to 2012, Davey served as Postal Affairs minister, a tenure that saw the country's sub-postmasters become the victims of a monstrous injustice.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[renegademaster]

Something needs to coax all the skilled British workers away from the Gulf States and America

 

[A0]

HS2 has employed some of the most highly paid public sector directors, senior staff, project managers, technical experts etc.

There appears to have been some poor decision-making, poor cost control matched by commensurate ability to move on having got their coin before the sh"* hits the fan. Perhaps paying considerably less basic salary and having completion bonus might be the way forward. If the maximum salary had been say £100,000 with a significant completion bonus would we really be much worse off?

I think the challenge is there are only a limited number of people with the required skills to run a major project / programme of works and they'll all be expecting somewhat more than £ 100k as their salary.

Just to put it in context, Programme Managers in large FTSE 100 companies running a portfolio of up to £ 1m / p.a. projects will easily command £ 100k salaries - and you're looking for somebody with several degrees of more experience than that to be the senior people on HS2. When you start looking at technical experts, you are paying for their technical expertise - again, you can't just go and hire some guy off the street - so whether you like it or not those salaries are going to be led by what the market is prepared to pay.

 

[Kenny G]

According to the Sunday Times today some of the activities of HS2 have been extremely whiffy. https://archive.ph/2023.10.21-23132...nd-coverup-cost-files-investigation-skzv2nxwj