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HS2 growth predictions

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The Ham

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Given that the predictions for passenger numbers are cited by those who are opposed to HS2 as being inaccurate, and in general discussions about HS2 it gets lost amongst other things I thought I'd start a dedicated thread.

It's likely to take a bit of time to read through the posts from the most recent thread, however the general point is that there's data which shows that the growth rate used is below that which has been seen, to the extent that we've already past that expected at the opening of Phase 1.

Is there any evidence that the growth rate used (not what's been used in the past on the likes of HS1) is failing to achieve the rate of growth expected? Of so where is this and what does it show?

There's a lot of reporting on the facts that passenger numbers on every HS line has failed to reach predictions, however that doesn't follow that HS2 is the same.

I'll explain, and feel free to highlight any points which I've got wrong.

HS2 was based on 2.4% per year growth and then later on (because growth had out performed this) this was down graded to 1.9% growth.

As such, we don't need to wait 20 years to see if the predictions are on track. Yes we may need to see if the actually reach that level, but we can get a fairly good idea as to if they are likely to our not likely to from where the growth has got to.

Now I know rail passenger numbers can do down as well as up, however between 2009 and 2019 at a growth rate of 2.4% (the original growth rate) for every 100 passengers in 2009 there should have been 127.

By the opening of Phase 1 (2026) it should have been 150 and Phase 2 (2033) 177.

In 2019 the growth rates from 2009 were:
View attachment 83198

Therefore the average for travel between London and those regions which benefit from HS2 is (for robustness I'm rounding down these figures, whilst the above figures were rounded correctly) 153 passengers for every 100 in 2009.

However if you look at those regions which benefit from Phase 2 it's 172 (North West) and 180 (West Midlands), which is around the 177 for the opening of Phase 2.

Now whilst Covid-19 has significant altered 2020's passenger numbers the likelihood is that the long term impact (if our economy is going to get anywhere close back to normal) is likely to be fairly small.

Given that we're already past 2026 figures as a whole, assuming that we average 1.5% from 2021 to 2026 (5 years of growth) then we could still be on track of there was a 9% fall.

However, from what reported it's cited as the predictions are wildly optimistic. Therefore to be wildly optimistic, I assume that it's safe to assume that that's more than 10% adrift (to make a prediction of 150 and it be 135 seams a bit off but not wildly optimistic over a 17 year window), so actually the fall would need to be around the 20% mark or more.

Now in not denying that travel is likely to be significantly changed due to more working from home (having been accelerated by Covid-19), however given that 80% of miles traveled are by car or doesn't take much of a shift (and there's a lot, 29% of households, of 2+ car households), in fact a 6.25% shift from road to rail miles would increase rail use by 50%.

Now whilst that sort of shift is probably unlikely, the fall in rail passenger numbers is likely to be in the 10-15% range (so a shift of 1.25%-1.9% to cover 100% of that fall).

The reason for a 10-15% fall is that 50% of rail travel is business related, 50% of work is viable to be done from home (so a maximum of a 25% fall) with something like 25% likely to opting to or being required to work in the office full time. Then of the remaining workers actually none of them will be remote 100% of the time (12 visits a year is 95%), with many opting for 40%+ within the office. Even if it's only the 25% which are the only ones who are working then it's 19%, to get to 15% the remaining workers need to work from home 80% of the time. Whilst 10% would be circa 50% working from home.

However that assumes an even spread of passenger falls due to WFH, whilst in reality most of that fall would hit London commuting much much harder than long distance passengers. As such even the 10-15% fall is likely to be much lower for long distance travel, however as highlighted above a 9% fall would still leave HS2 passengers broadly on track.

As such it's likely that the cited impact of WFH on HS2 passenger numbers is likely to be over estimated by those who would like HS2 be stopped.

However hopefully I've demonstrated that we don't need to wait 20 years to see that we're not significantly off track from the predictions and that WFH is unlikely to impact rail travel as much as many suggest.

As I've said, feel free to challenge any of the points raised ideally with data.
It doesn't follow, but there is a long history of growth predictions being over inflated and there isn't a long history of growth predictions being accurate.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make with the data you have quoted. We know there has been growth over the last 15 years. We also know, from the repeated financial failures on the ECML, that this growth has also not met expectations.

To keep on point, it is fair to report on criticisms of the modelling by pointing out that modelling on previous projects has been similarly flawed. It isn't just HS1, either; the M6 Toll is still, 17 years on, still only seeing half the predicted usage.

I don't want this thread to be a rehash of HS2 arguments because I have been convinced by the likes of Lord Berkeley that HS2 is a gigantic waste of money that will benefit nobody except the construction companies who donate money to the Government. Which is why I left those threads. Nothing said by HS2 Ltd to date has convinced me otherwise and, it's fair to say, certainly won't now.
The growth "required" for the ECML to meet the requirements of the business case for the Virgin East Coast was closer to 5% growth/year.

That's double that growth in year 1, but by year 10 the difference widens to +27% to +62% due to the way compound growth works.

As such the fact that growth is broadly on track (or better) then it would suggest that the predictions, no matter how much StopHS2 claim otherwise, are broadly accurate. As otherwise there'd be a large gap between the predictions and the actual figures already.

When StopHS2 are challenged they deflect or shut down the conversation.

Of course I'm happy to start a new thread to discuss it, let me know if you're interested.
Also isn't 1tph of the 18tph not actually planned for use at the outset and is there for future services.

As such it's 1tph (17 Vs 16) more than what is achieved elsewhere (2 if you look at the peak hours), as such it's not that big a step up from what does happen.

Anyway, if anything all that shows is that we need more HS lines and not less.

As if we can't run full length services at 17tph and there's not enough passengers to justify needing them, then we could just split a service to provide a train with 550 seats to a location (remembering that the current 11 coach 390's have 589 seats, so reducing from 3*1,100 seat trains to Manchester to 2*1,100 + 550 seat trains wouldn't be that big a deal, as that would then allow the other half of the short Manchester service to go somewhere else after Crewe).

Otherwise if demand is there for all those services then it's time to start building (well probably long past the time, but you get the idea) High Speed East to provide more direct London to Leeds/York services.

Either the passenger numbers are too low (so we can split services without 15tph into Euston being a problem) or passenger numbers are high enough that HS2 is more than justified and when we run into problems running 15+tph then we're onto the next High Speed line as there's enough passengers to justify that.
 
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miami

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Any discussions about HS2 and loading are skewed at the moment by covid. Maybe 10 people in total on the train from Crewe to London this morning. How that picks up over the next 10 years really is guesswork though -- perhaps we'll go back to 2019 levels by 2025, in which case HS2 for capacity is essential. Maybe we'll see the type of change that occurs every few generations and remote working is here to stay.
 

jfisher21

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I think we were lucky covid did not happen a couple of years ago .... I am sure they would have scrapped hs2 if it had done. They just started building it it time!
 

Ianno87

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well I certainly wouldn't want HS2 to be fully utilized from day 1, otherwise where would the scope for growth be?

Remember in the first year of HS1 domestic operation folks saying "look they're all empty". Now look at them.

If a new railway is full up on Day 1, that is (usually) demonstrating very poor forward planning!
 

Camden

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If a new railway is full up on Day 1, that is (usually) demonstrating very poor forward planning!
"...except when it comes to Liverpool." The level of passenger usage HS2 claimed it would generate in 2026 had been surpassed by 2016. Despite warnings being issued over even those wrong 2026 figures that would mean standing passengers, there have been no change to the plans beyond making them worse for the city.

(It is worth noting that those who pointed out HS2's falsehoods at the time in relation to this also had opposite comment to make about other assumptions).

These facts typically provoke furious defence from HS2 flag wavers, so I assume your otherwise reasonable statement requires that addendum.
 

Carlisle

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I think we were lucky covid did not happen a couple of years ago .... I am sure they would have scrapped hs2 if it had done.
Extremely unlikely, unless the Greens or UKIP had won a share of power. The 3 main parties never indicated a significant number of their big hitters fundamentally opposed it for any reasons
 
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Ianno87

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"...except when it comes to Liverpool." The level of passenger usage HS2 claimed it would generate in 2026 had been surpassed by 2016. Despite warnings being issued over even those wrong 2026 figures that would mean standing passengers, there have been no change to the plans beyond making them worse for the city.

(It is worth noting that those who pointed out HS2's falsehoods at the time in relation to this also had opposite comment to make about other assumptions).

These facts typically provoke furious defence from HS2 flag wavers, so I assume your otherwise reasonable statement requires that addendum.

Without wanting to trigger a Liverpool debate *again*....

The design for HS2 does not prevent infrastructure being added later to, say, increase Liverpool's train length from 200 metres to 400 metres, should a future route into Liverpool permit this (the constraint at present is the length of Lime Street platforms)

Remember last year the Government specifically launched a consultation for amended the HS2 design in Cheshire to permit a future new route to Liverpool, clearly with Liverpool's future needs in mind.
 

Camden

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Without wanting to trigger a Liverpool debate *again*....

The design for HS2 does not prevent infrastructure being added later
And yet it is not proposed to build HS2 to the city. Even the dual purpose HS3/NPR will not be built from there first, but instead between Manchester and Leeds. This is despite Liverpool having twice the passenger numbers with half the trains.

The expansion constraint is not just train length, but line capacity, station capacity, age of the infrastructure, and anything else mentioned in relation to the designated HS2 destinations. With the additional factor that the city is actually important to the country's future.

You said that a railway being full on day one would represent poor planning, but, especially re your comment suggestive that anything Liverpool should be off limits for discussion, it would seem my addendum is spot on.

Forecasts clearly mean nothing on the subject: HS2 will go where the kleptocracy wants it to go, even if only 2 people use it per year.
 
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