HS2 going to have 3+2 seating?!

[Ironside]

Definitely not the views of the majority on here.

You think the majority of people on this site think their should only be one class of carriage?

 

[HSTEd]

1+1 would never take off.
The markup on the ticket price would be so large noone would ever bother.

That kind of clientele will just take a plane out of City airport.

 

[Ironside]

1+1 would never take off.
The markup on the ticket price would be so large noone would ever bother.

That kind of clientele will just take a plane out of City airport.

I think heathrow express first class has 1+1 seating, which presumably does work for them?

 

[MarkyT]

No it couldn't. Not successfully. Two words: Utter outrage. This is one for those who understand how real people think.

Huh?? You think this is the 80s? Actually, in today's world, it is a massive moral issue. The enormous disparity is in fact something which gets a lot of people very exercised. To this end, a HS2 pampering the super-elite could be the very iconic thing which loses the conservatives the next election. Despite Jeremy Corbyn.

NO its the even more inequitable early 21st century. But why should we expect HS2 be any different from other areas of life? Should we not therefore be exercised against first class on aircraft or luxury hotels? After all the airline industry IS still subsidised to a degree and most of it's original airport infrastructure in the UK was at least initially provided by the state. HS2 is not about subsidised operations, it is about public planning and underwriting of the infrastructure and particularly the right of way, which has the potential to serve generations of citizens over centuries to come and could not possibly be built at that scale by private interests alone. Perhaps as enthusiasts we should be railing against luxury steam hauled excursions raking in £400+ full dining fees for a day out. Perhaps photographers could boycott these and refuse to take or publish any images of them. I can really see that working! I abhor ever-increasing inequality, but whether or not HS2 has a few luxury seats is not going to make a ha'penny worth of difference to that on the wider scale. Now if they were going to provide exclusively first class trains alone that would be a different matter, but they could probably meet demand with about half a dozen round trips daily so I can't see how that would form a viable business at all. HS2 MUST be a pile 'em high sell 'em cheap business or it simply will not work. The egalitarian consideration is that the speed and journey time improvements will be available to all travellers at whatever price they pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1 + 1 seating is offensive to my own eyes

Tightly packed 3+2 seating would be by the same reckoning offensive to my eyes, because as a broad 6 footer (and a bit) I don't fit in it. I don't find it offensive, though it might put me off choosing that service. Why should I?

Is rail travel offensive to your eyes because it's more expensive than coach travel?

It's simply a service. If you think it's value for your money, buy it. If you think it isn't value for your money, don't buy it. If insufficient people buy it, it will either reduce in price or go away.

Personally, I purchase extra legroom on flights and often purchase Weekend First, because I like the extra space being tall and broad. I don't purchase First Anytime Returns because I think they are poor value for me. If there were First Off Peak returns at 1.6 times the relevant Standard Off Peak Return on all trains, I would travel First Class at all times on all trains where provided, however the TOCs have decided that does not fit their business model. I don't resent others who do purchase them because they feel they are good value to them - why should I?
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I think heathrow express first class has 1+1 seating, which presumably does work for them?

Might the business model for that be for a senior company director who needs to be able to spend that journey reviewing documents without fear of their seatmate reading them?

I can't see much other value in First Class (of any kind) for a 15 minute journey.

Actually, in a way, HEx is first class. The Tube or HConn is Standard

 

[HSTEd]

I think heathrow express first class has 1+1 seating, which presumably does work for them?

That is IIRC a way to let people keep luggage with them.
They are standard 2+1 seats.

On HS2 that would just lead to huge corridor space wasted in the middle.
People aren't going to pay huge sums of money for 1+1 seating on such a short journey. Captive journeys will last 100 minutes at most and most will last far less than that.

 

[Ironside]

That is IIRC a way to let people keep luggage with them.
They are standard 2+1 seats.

On HS2 that would just lead to huge corridor space wasted in the middle.
People aren't going to pay huge sums of money for 1+1 seating on such a short journey. Captive journeys will last 100 minutes at most and most will last far less than that.

The article below suggests that by 2013 first class was changed to 1+1 seating. http://www.ausbt.com.au/heathrow-express-gets-new-business-class-look-even-in-economy

 

[Howardh]

If there's a fourth carriage of standing only for twoppence I'll take that; how hard is an hour and a bit standing between Manchester and London?

But by the time it's ready for use they will have to include my coffin as part of the deal

 

[Chris125]

The Daily Mail have run the same story in far less certain terms:


"The high-speed HS2 trains could have three carriage classes to attract business commuters, it has emerged"


"The design is just one of several options under consideration by HS2 Ltd – the Government-funded body in charge of the project – but experts consider the three-tier model is likely to be adopted as it is already used in China and parts of Europe"


"Plans under consideration include splitting the carriages into three sections: standard coaches with five seats across a carriage, first-class carriages with three seats across and luxury carriages with as few as two seats in a row"


"An HS2 spokesman said: ‘No decisions have been taken about the layout. We are looking at options and will confirm in the spring’"

 

[Hadders]

Seems rather strange to consider 3+3 seating when new stock these days tends to be 2+2 and fewer seats so more people can stand.

 

[JaJaWa]

Seems rather strange to consider 3+3 seating when new stock these days tends to be 2+2 and fewer seats so more people can stand.

3+3 is taking it a bit far!

 

[The Ham]

Depending on passenger numbers it could be possible that HS2 phase 1 opens with 2+2 seating and then as passenger numbers grow then there could be options for 3+2 seating to stay to appear on some of the busier services as phases 2 is completed.

 

[quantinghome]

Depending on passenger numbers it could be possible that HS2 phase 1 opens with 2+2 seating and then as passenger numbers grow then there could be options for 3+2 seating to stay to appear on some of the busier services as phases 2 is completed.

I don't think this would be practical. Looking at train width:

- 2.7m - current typical width of British trains
- 3.15m - UIC structural loading gauge (presumably HS2 is proposing to use this?)
- 3.4m - Shinkansen structural loading gauge

The 3+2 seating option is in general use on Shinkansen, but not in general use in European high speed trains (which are presumably designed for UIC gauge). So unless we could find a way to comfortably provide another seat width using the extra 45cm that UIC gives, we'd need to use the Shinkansen gauge. This would require changes to HS2's specification, changing formation cross section and structural clearance. Once you decide to do that, you would really need to use the full width right from the start.

 

[HSTEd]

Really the line should be built to Shinkansen gauge - but that wouldn't tick the relevant TSI boxes so we are stuck for no real reason other than european bureaucracy.

 

[MarkyT]

Really the line should be built to Shinkansen gauge - but that wouldn't tick the relevant TSI boxes so we are stuck for no real reason other than european bureaucracy.

On an isolated new railway with no TSI compliant connection to Europe . . .

Surely there's nothing wrong with bridges and structures being larger than UIC as that wouldn't prevent passage of UIC gauge stock.

Platforms are another matter, but I hope HS2 goes with a UK height platform at the UIC lateral offset, so level boarding will be possible universally, otherwise all the classic compatibles (the majority of the fleet to begin with) will face a large step down from the train at all the new stations including Euston.

Here's a Japanese loading gauge illustration:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...#/media/File:Rolling-Stock-Gauge-in-Japan.svg

Green is Shinkansen, blue is older narrow gauge and grey newer narrow gauge. Note similarity of narrow gauge profile to UK classic standard gauge.

 

[The Ham]

I don't think this would be practical. Looking at train width:

- 2.7m - current typical width of British trains
- 3.15m - UIC structural loading gauge (presumably HS2 is proposing to use this?)
- 3.4m - Shinkansen structural loading gauge

The 3+2 seating option is in general use on Shinkansen, but not in general use in European high speed trains (which are presumably designed for UIC gauge). So unless we could find a way to comfortably provide another seat width using the extra 45cm that UIC gives, we'd need to use the Shinkansen gauge. This would require changes to HS2's specification, changing formation cross section and structural clearance. Once you decide to do that, you would really need to use the full width right from the start.

Given 45cm is almost 18 inches, then compared to airline industry economy (long haul) seating just that extra width is better or equal to the vast majority. It is also only about 3cm less than the width of the padded section of my office chair (although to be fair I don't then sit with people immediately either side of me).

It would also provide, compared to say a class 350, something like an extra 7cm per seat (also 3+2 seating). Which although wouldn't be luxurious would probably make it possible for a lot of people to be able sit with some level of comfort on all three seats.

Would I be happy to pay VT fairs to travel on that sort of seating, probably not. However nothing has been said to say that all of standard class will be 3+2 seating. It could well be that part of a train is set aside for it which is filled up by people buying (cheaper) advanced tickets. Then anyone who buys a typical turn up and go fare (anytime/off peak) would then be allocated a 2+2 seat.

Anyone who has an advanced ticket could opt to go looking for an unreserved 2+2 seat and get a bit more space, but that may not be possible on busy services (of course any very quite trains may have more advanced tickets than 3+2 seats and as such some could then be allocated 2+2 seats anyway).

In doing so you effectively create a 3rd class (in terms of price) but with the possibility of travelling in 2+2 seating if there is space.

 

[dggar]

If they replaced the seats with pins how many angels would they be able to carry.

 

[The Planner]

Platforms are another matter, but I hope HS2 goes with a UK height platform at the UIC lateral offset, so level boarding will be possible universally, otherwise all the classic compatibles (the majority of the fleet to begin with) will face a large step down from the train at all the new stations including Euston.

You are assuming they still procure two sets. I have said elsewhere that there will be a substantial amount of gauge works required on the existing network. There is a tipping point where the extra works to provide the gauge for the captive sets could mean you just order the one type.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't mind the idea of a "premium economy", but I'd rather it looked a bit more like the Voyager hybrid coach (with some well spaced airline seating as well) than making Standard rubbish.

 

[HSTEd]

You are assuming they still procure two sets. I have said elsewhere that there will be a substantial amount of gauge works required on the existing network. There is a tipping point where the extra works to provide the gauge for the captive sets could mean you just order the one type.

That would be enormously expensive with the long stretches of classic compatible running they are proposing to implement.

It is far more likely we will get an entirely CC fleet.

Meanwhile we could have had 400m 320km/h trainsets in the style of the E1/E4 series Shinkansen sets. [The speed on those was limited partially due to the low speed of the route over which they operate, rather than due to any technical constraints that I can see].
You would be looking at ~1650 passengers on such a thing, even with restricting oneself to 3+2 instead of any high density six abreast seating.

 

[MarkyT]

That would be enormously expensive with the long stretches of classic compatible running they are proposing to implement.

It is far more likely we will get an entirely CC fleet.

I think that was what he was implying.

Makes sense to me, especially in the beginning when the only fully UIC route will be to Birmingham. There'll always be the flexibility to order some wider or even double-decker stock subsequently for more capacity as the traffic grows, but it's interesting Japan have phased out double decker Shinkansens on their network. Those trains were slower than the latest units though and they're chasing uniformly higher speeds and further route extensions, sometimes with their equivalent of our classic compatibles, the Mini-Shinkensen sets. They're also looking at a small degree of tilt to raise speed on the earliest high speed lines and even gauge changing trains for extensions (not something I thing we'll ever need to consider unless a Ffestiiog branch is proposed!).

 

[HSTEd]

I think that was what he was implying.

Makes sense to me, especially in the beginning when the only fully UIC route will be to Birmingham. There'll always be the flexibility to order some wider or even double-decker stock subsequently for more capacity as the traffic grows, but it's interesting Japan have phased out double decker Shinkansens on their network. Those trains were slower than the latest units though and they're chasing uniformly higher speeds and further route extensions, sometimes with their equivalent of our classic compatibles, the Mini-Shinkensen sets. They're also looking at a small degree of tilt to raise speed on the earliest high speed lines and even gauge changing trains for extensions (not something I thing we'll ever need to consider unless a Ffestiiog branch is proposed!).

The Japanese have the opposite problem to Britain - stagnant or falling passenger numbers on many railway routes - the double deckers have been replaced with faster single decks as a means of propping up demand by reducing journey times I believe.
If they can't fill single decks on the Joetsu and Tohoku shinkansen why pay for double decks.

To be honest we are not going to be short of passengers so we should build the line to the largest available loading gauge and use high capacity trains wherever possible.
UIC compatability is almost worthless when there will never be any connection to HS1. And even if there was you could easily make "continent compatible" trains with pop out boarding 'bridges' like the Mini-Shinkansen have in Japan.

 

[JamesT]

Wasn't one of the arguments for UIC that rolling stock should be cheaper as it's a common size, rather than the UK's oddball gauge? Even if it's not connected to HS1, isn't asking Alstom for a TGV Duplex or Siemens for a Velaro going to be easier than something custom? Isn't the danger of going for Shinkansen spec that we swap one odd size for another?

 

[HSTEd]

Wasn't one of the arguments for UIC that rolling stock should be cheaper as it's a common size, rather than the UK's oddball gauge? Even if it's not connected to HS1, isn't asking Alstom for a TGV Duplex or Siemens for a Velaro going to be easier than something custom? Isn't the danger of going for Shinkansen spec that we swap one odd size for another?

Considering that a large fraction of the fleet is going to be a custom design anyway I am not sure this is going to be a big factor - indeed later HS2 documents largely eliminate the supposed price advantage of captive sets. THis is one of the reasons we are looking at an entirely classic compatible fleet for phase one.

Of course the 'odd size' argument is less prevalent than in many cases as the full network could easily require 40 400m long captive sets if we were to go all out for capacity. That is potentially up to 640 vehicles, plus future expansions which will tend to replace classic compatibles with captives. [2 hour cycle time for BIrmingham - 6 sets; 3 hour cycle time for Manchester - 9 sets, 4 hour cycle time for Leeds - 12 sets = 27 sets plus spares plus Crewe terminators et al].

And if we build to SHinkansen gauge we could always buy off the shelf Japanese designs if necessary - they and the Japan gauge THSR are a significant part of the high speed market.

 

[MarkyT]

The Japanese have the opposite problem to Britain - stagnant or falling passenger numbers on many railway routes

I have read that daily high speed commuting on certain mid distance routes into Tokyo has been hammered by property price stabilisation after many years of stratospheric inflation. Many more people are able to actually afford to live nearer their jobs today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have read that daily high speed commuting on certain mid distance routes into Tokyo has been hammered by property price stabilisation after many years of stratospheric inflation. Many more people are able to actually afford to live nearer their jobs today.

Which is rather a good thing in a political context...

 

[MarkyT]

Which is rather a good thing in a political context...

. . . and from a environmental point of view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, if HS2 will just make Brum a London commuter suburb, it should be cancelled forthwith and replaced with a cheaper 125mph capacity build (basically adding 2 "fast-plus" tracks to the WCML to solve the south WCML capacity issue, which is the only ground under which I think it is justified).

 

[HSTEd]

Indeed, if HS2 will just make Brum a London commuter suburb, it should be cancelled forthwith and replaced with a cheaper 125mph capacity build (basically adding 2 "fast-plus" tracks to the WCML to solve the south WCML capacity issue, which is the only ground under which I think it is justified).

But 125mph won't be significantly cheaper than the high speed line.
It would have all the same equipment and require almost the same tunnels and everything.

You save a bit on curvature and tunnel diameters but not really very much at all.
And HS2 has so much capacity that it can turn southeast Birmingham into a commuter suburb and solve all the WCML capacity issues at once.
So unless you are talking about deliberately hamstringing it.

And demanding lengthened journey times even though it won't save much money is very dodgy IMO.

My objective is simple: provide the people of the UK with the cheapest long distance, convenient travel available. Shinkansen gauge aids this objective by providing more capacity for almost the same capital spend.

. . . and from a environmental point of view.

If we meet our decarbonisation of electricity targets then the environmental impact of high speed rail travel becomes negligible.
There is little reason, at that point, to try and restrict it for 'environmental' reasons.
There is also almost no sign of property price stabilisation of the type seen near Tokyo - after all they have a falling population, Britain does not.

 

[NSEFAN]

But 125mph won't be significantly cheaper than the high speed line.
It would have all the same equipment and require almost the same tunnels and everything.

I agree with you about the formation, although running slower might save a bit on the energy bills.

I don't see why commuting longer distances is such an issue, though. It's bound to happen whenever transport links improve. When the HST was introduced people were able to start realistically commuting from Bristol to London, for example. I personally wouldn't do such a crazy long commute if I could help it, but if that's what people will pay for then why not provide such a service?