HS2 going to have 3+2 seating?!

[Bletchleyite]

Read an article in the Times this morning (via the app, so I don't have a link to hand unfortunately) suggesting that HS2 Ltd are favouring stock with 3+2 seating in Standard plus normal 2+1 First and a 1+1 "super business class" (just as more and more businesses insist on Standard).

We're building to UIC gauge, not super-wide Chinese/Indian gauge, right?

This being the case, I can't see why I would ever travel on HS2. Anyone else know more?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Read an article in the Times this morning (via the app, so I don't have a link to hand unfortunately) suggesting that HS2 Ltd are favouring stock with 3+2 seating in Standard plus normal 2+1 First and a 1+1 "super business class" (just as more and more businesses insist on Standard).

We're building to UIC gauge, not super-wide Chinese/Indian gauge, right?

This being the case, I can't see why I would ever travel on HS2. Anyone else know more?

HS2 is UIC gauge, so 3+2 seating wouldn't be much more comfortable than it would be on 20m carriage multiple units today. I don't think there's much credence to this rumour, given that 1+1 super-business seating would be an extremely inefficient use of the limited space available on the network. Each train is meant to carry 550 people in two classes, which won't require anything more than 2+2 in standard and 2+1 in first.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That sounds quite ridiculous... Of course 3+2 on the captive sets won't be as cramped as 3+2 on the classic lines, but I suspect they'll struggle to fill 400m long sets even at 2+2 so cramming yet more seats in strikes me as unnecessary.

 

[RepTCTC]

HS2 is UIC gauge, so 3+2 seating wouldn't be much more comfortable than it would be on 20m carriage multiple units today. I don't think there's much credence to this rumour, given that 1+1 super-business seating would be an extremely inefficient use of the limited space available on the network. Each train is meant to carry 550 people in two classes, which won't require anything more than 2+2 in standard and 2+1 in first.

Then again, if they've done a bit of research and worked out that standard class isn't especially comfort-sensitive* but is highly price sensitive (which for the bulk of the commuter market, I suspect it very much is), whilst at the same time identifying a group of travelers who're happy to pay silly money for "luxury", it might be entirely advantageous to cram in the standard travelers to make space for those paying a serious premium.


* It's not like anyone's going to be sat on one for very long!

 

[Bletchleyite]

* It's not like anyone's going to be sat on one for very long!

I suppose if they are just talking London to Birmingham, it's no worse than taking the LM stopper from Cov. If the classic compatible trains were 3+2 though that would be hideous.

What would be interesting would be to see the sales effect, assuming it is reservation-only with seat selection as I personally see as likely, of there only being middle seats left.

 

[northwichcat]

Is the idea from the same DfT accountant who thought more seats could be fitted in a Desiro, overlooking the fact that multiple units have driving cabs. :roll:

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I can't see the 1+1 taking off. If there was demand for it, surely it would be far more practical to build 1+2, but block off the second seat for passengers not travelling together, like airlines do when making a first class section in a small jet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see the 1+1 taking off. If there was demand for it, surely it would be far more practical to build 1+2, but block off the second seat for passengers not travelling together, like airlines do when making a first class section in a small jet.

I suppose it might be maybe 4 seats per train, in which case if you can charge someone £300 return London to Brum that's a nice bit of income.

FWIW I think a "premium economy" with 2+2 but leather seats[1] and extra legroom would probably be more viable.

[1] I don't like them personally, but they do seem to sell as premium.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FWIW VT nearly did this on the Voyagers - the reason for 3 disabled bogs was that there were to be 3 classes - First, Standard and a 3+2 "Virgin Value class".

 

[Grimsby town]

Taking into account the max journey time the captive trains will be traveling for is around 1 hour 40 minutes to Leeds so 3+2 wouldn't be too bad. Saying that I'm not sure why it is needed as there is going to be a huge increase in capacity with these trains that should help to drive down prices and the captive trains have no need for buffets so there is more space for seats there.

Perhaps it would be possible to encourage competition by offering a Ouigo style service every hour offering a very basic product with cheaper walk up fares, 3+2 seating and maybe added baggage fees. This could mess up the frequency though and as I already mentioned if Hs2 ticket prices are sensibly done there should be a large drop in walk up fares anyway. Perhaps even a third value class would be possible as in the post above.

 

[gordonthemoron]

they should be 2+2 throughout with no first class

 

[Bletchleyite]

they should be 2+2 throughout with no first class

Why? Why throw away profitable premium class income that among other things keeps Standard fares down?

 

[RepTCTC]

What would be interesting would be to see the sales effect, assuming it is reservation-only with seat selection as I personally see as likely, of there only being middle seats left.

I can't see 100% reservation working on the London - Brum bit as that strikes me as being very much a high frequency commuter shuttle for London workers and precious little else, so a walk-on service (in the evenings especially) is more or less obligatory.

 

[quantinghome]

3+2 seating seems to be the standard for Shinkansen, with 2+2 for 'green' class and some trains with 2+1 premium seats.

I'd be happy with 3+2 if the seat width was maintained. Leg room could be increased a bit and you'd still have more capacity than 2+2. According to Wikipedia, Shinkansen loading gauge is 3.4m (compared to 3.15m for UIC), so a twin-track rail formation would need to be half a metre wider overall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be happy with 3+2 if the seat width was maintained.

I wouldn't. Middle seats are nasty generally.

 

[deltic]

I can't see 100% reservation working on the London - Brum bit as that strikes me as being very much a high frequency commuter shuttle for London workers and precious little else, so a walk-on service (in the evenings especially) is more or less obligatory.

Standing will not be allowed but by 10 years time it should be possible to reserve a seat a few minutes before departure

 

[gordonthemoron]

Why? Why throw away profitable premium class income that among other things keeps Standard fares down?

That's what HS1 has got

 

[Camden]

3 + 2 on a captive train I can understand, and of course it would likely mean that most services would run as one train rather than two coupled up.

This does however raise a question over the classic compatible trains which will be narrower. Places being served by this will need a higher level of comfort as their journeys are much longer, and yet HS2 specified that these trains will have the same number of seats as captive trains.

I believe they quoted 550 seats per 200 metre train, this is only 39 seats fewer than a Pendolino (which is 60 metres longer). HS2 have a lot of questions to answer. Given the amount that is being spent on this project, if the end result is being cramped into a 3 + 2 arrangement on a classic sized train for upwards of one and a half hours, and in many cases much longer, then people will rightly be unimpressed to say the least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what HS1 has got

HS1 is a London commuter service.

 

[Camden]

The link to the article would be good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The link to the article would be good.

Unfortunately I can't provide it as I read it on the paid iPad app, and my subscription (as it is just done via the appstore) does not give access to the website which is behind a paywall.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Here's the link, unfortunately behind a paywall.
Times article

 

[RepTCTC]

Standing will not be allowed but by 10 years time it should be possible to reserve a seat a few minutes before departure

Quite. Being able to book ones seat from a mobile walking towards the platform gates makes it effectively a walk-on service, which is exactly what it has to be if it's going to serve the Birmingham to London commuter market at which it's clearly initially targeted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HS1 is a London commuter service.

As is HS2. In terms of travel time and service frequency, it'll given central Birmingham a commuter service to central London broadly similar to that available to the denizens of Basingstoke.

 

[JaJaWa]

Here's the link, unfortunately behind a paywall.
Times article

Attached courtesy of BBC News front pages:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I could see a limited section of 3+2 seating being a good thing, perhaps as a "family section"... If only to make it easier to avoid screaming kids!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could see a limited section of 3+2 seating being a good thing, perhaps as a "family section"... If only to make it easier to avoid screaming kids!

I don't know about 3+2, but some areas of 3+1 (with normal 2+2 width seats) might well be popular with both families and individuals, the latter able to choose single seats and the former bays of 6. The bays of 6 on LM 350/2s seem quite popular with families.

 

[Camden]

Speaking as someone who does do work on trains, and sometimes makes use of First Class, I have to say the addition of totally OTT 1 + 1 Uber-Privileged Luxuricrat Class on top of FC I would personally find pretty offensive if it comes at the price of cramming "standard" in like cattle as 5 abreast.

And if they try this on in classic compatibles, I would find that shocking.

 

[HSTEd]

550 seats would fit on TGV Duplex. And our short journey times will mean the percentage of first class to standard will end up something close to TPE rather than to conventional intercity trains.
But really we should be following the historical Japanese model (before they got hit hard by falling passenger numbers) and just running 400m unitary trains at the highest capacity possible - which is likely to be a 400m Duplex with two power cars and some extra power bogies under the end vehicles. (And possibly in the middle of the formation if it can be broken in half a la Eurostar).
3-4% per annum passenger growth will rapidly make a mockery of anything else.

And considering the total lack of European through running in the forseable future we really should have built to the wider Shinkansen gauge. Classic Compatible sets could have the fold out "bridge" that are fitted on Mini Shinkansen in Japan.

So much cheap capacity uplift through away for European box ticking and desires to penny pinch on operational costs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't know about 3+2, but some areas of 3+1 (with normal 2+2 width seats) might well be popular with both families and individuals, the latter able to choose single seats and the former bays of 6. The bays of 6 on LM 350/2s seem quite popular with families.

I'd be happy with a single seat, but NOT a single seat that was only an aisle away from a bunch of brats! A carriage or two of a "family zone" however should allow me to travel in peace!

 

[Rational Plan]

I'm sure there were concepts out there for family compartments.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm sure there were concepts out there for family compartments.

I believe they have them on TGV Duplex sets.