HS2 futureproofing for HS1 link?

[ATS3]

I'm aware why the link was not authorised, but something I can't seem to find info about anywhere is if provision was left in the infrastructure of HS2 for a future HS1 link to be completed (including space for dedicated international passport control at Birmingham for example).
It would be a massive shame if it weren't.

 

[swt_passenger]

The route of the link in London was discussed a couple of months ago in the general HS2 tunnelling thread starting about here:

HS2 TBM Progress

Great! Are there many more shafts for either set before they reach the end?

www.railforums.co.uk

I don’t think there was much provision needed in the infrastructure, it’s basically just room for a single tunnel that would have run all the way to the eastern headwall at Old Oak Common station box. If they haven’t moved the two Euston tunnels closer together it should still theoretically be buildable. The thread I linked has drawings of the route.

I’ve no idea whether scope for international controls exists at Curzon St, but as it’s almost certainly never going to be needed, I wouldn’t worry too much.

 

[jfowkes]

Realistically the only way beyond-London international services will ever happen is if we join Schengen or we agree some kind of digital-only border control system that doesn't require any (or very little) personnel or infrastructure at the terminals.
The economics of maintaining border infrastructure at UK stations just doesn't work out otherwise.

 

[EUC]

Realistically the only way beyond-London international services will ever happen is if we join Schengen or we agree some kind of digital-only border control system that doesn't require any (or very little) personnel or infrastructure at the terminals.
The economics of maintaining border infrastructure at UK stations just doesn't work out otherwise.

I wonder why, though. I frequently used to travel on cross-border services in Europe before Schengen. Entire trains would be checked by customs and immigration officials as the train was travelling between frontier stations with no problem at all.
Is it impossible for Eurostar to work on that basis? Just normal trains crossing international frontiers.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I wonder why, though. I frequently used to travel on cross-border services in Europe before Schengen. Entire trains would be checked by customs and immigration officials as the train was travelling between frontier stations with no problem at all.
Is it impossible for Eurostar to work on that basis? Just normal trains crossing international frontiers.

Because then it would no longer be competitive with air travel.

Who would want to go through passport controls at St Pancras, settle into your seat for the 30 minute journey to Folkestone, where you then stop for an hour while border staff pass through and check everyone's documents (or, worse, have to decant the train with your luggage, queue up again probably in some cold marquee structure, and then wait for everyone to get back on) before being allowed to continue through the tunnel?

I presume also that Belgian border control could demand the same thing on their border. A 2h train trip to Brussels suddenly becomes a 5h nightmare. Why would you choose that over a 60m flight?

 

[Snow1964]

I believe a short link was proposed which was basically underground junctions about mile and half from Euston (about half mile from tunnel portal at Euston end), near where headhouse is at Primrose Hill.

Would then have been short spurs (actually long enough to hold a 400m train clear of the line to Euston) leading to a single line to join the provision for spurs that are in the open north of St Pancras.

From memory two versions of plan exist, one is cheaper and runs at low speed squeezed in alongside the north London line at Camden before diving into the tunnel spurs, and other is straighter with longer tunnel. Nothing is currently authorised.

I think the general view is that the larger junction tunnels need to be built even if spur is not added for years because it will be very disruptive to Euston services to do later. I have not seen anything that says if these step plate style sections will be built (but then been nothing to indicate the tunnel bore will be reduced here either) as part of the Euston tunnelling announcement.

Its probably worth noting the TBMs were not scheduled to bore whole tunnel anyway, the approach tunnel splits into two at Euston end (basically there are two approaches, one either side on outside, with departure tunnel in middle, to reduce conflicting moves), some of this multi level approach arrangement (where inbound and outbound tunnels at different levels) would be dug by roadheaders not TBMs

 

[jfowkes]

I wonder why, though. I frequently used to travel on cross-border services in Europe before Schengen. Entire trains would be checked by customs and immigration officials as the train was travelling between frontier stations with no problem at all.
Is it impossible for Eurostar to work on that basis? Just normal trains crossing international frontiers.

I'm not 100% on why on-train checks aren't feasible. Maybe it's a time thing? Eurostar journeys are quite short, so you might need quite a lot of staff to do a whole train in the journey time. Any removals from the train might also affect train operations, causing delays etc. Also I guess it's just not very nice for passengers to have their journey interrupted by border force or potentially see someone get manhandled off a train.

 

[Gaelan]

I wonder why, though. I frequently used to travel on cross-border services in Europe before Schengen. Entire trains would be checked by customs and immigration officials as the train was travelling between frontier stations with no problem at all.
Is it impossible for Eurostar to work on that basis? Just normal trains crossing international frontiers.

It's a loophole in asylum law. If someone crosses the UK border, they must be allowed to claim asylum; but if they get turned away while still in France (or Belgium, etc), no such right exists.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm aware why the link was not authorised, but something I can't seem to find info about anywhere is if provision was left in the infrastructure of HS2 for a future HS1 link to be completed (including space for dedicated international passport control at Birmingham for example).
It would be a massive shame if it weren't.

There was never any proposal for border control at Birmingham

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe a short link was proposed which was basically underground junctions about mile and half from Euston (about half mile from tunnel portal at Euston end), near where headhouse is at Primrose Hill.

Would then have been short spurs (actually long enough to hold a 400m train clear of the line to Euston) leading to a single line to join the provision for spurs that are in the open north of St Pancras.

From memory two versions of plan exist, one is cheaper and runs at low speed squeezed in alongside the north London line at Camden before diving into the tunnel spurs, and other is straighter with longer tunnel. Nothing is currently authorised.

I think the general view is that the larger junction tunnels need to be built even if spur is not added for years because it will be very disruptive to Euston services to do later. I have not seen anything that says if these step plate style sections will be built (but then been nothing to indicate the tunnel bore will be reduced here either) as part of the Euston tunnelling announcement.

Its probably worth noting the TBMs were not scheduled to bore whole tunnel anyway, the approach tunnel splits into two at Euston end (basically there are two approaches, one either side on outside, with departure tunnel in middle, to reduce conflicting moves), some of this multi level approach arrangement (where inbound and outbound tunnels at different levels) would be dug by roadheaders not TBMs

The drawings I found, (linked in the other thread), don’t show any step plate junctions. It was to be a separate single line from the site near Primrose Hill all the way to the Old Oak Common box. There are no intermediate junctions on the route at all, at least nothing is shown on the publicly available drawings.

 

[MarkyT]

The drawings I found, (linked in the other thread), don’t show any step plate junctions. It was to be a separate single line from the site near Primrose Hill all the way to the Old Oak Common box. There are no intermediate junctions on the route at all, at least nothing is shown on the publicly available drawings.

That was the official plan I remember. The separate tunnel avoided a complicated subterranean junction under the Primrose Hill area. Even if the design today at OOC would still allow the additional east wall bore, actually starting another TBM there is unlikely to be possible after operations have started in the station. That's a major reason the Euston tunnels had to be started now. Perhaps a machine might be started at Primrose Hill instead to break through into the OOC box later but Camden Road remains an unsolved major bottleneck.

 

[mrmartin]

I'm not 100% on why on-train checks aren't feasible. Maybe it's a time thing? Eurostar journeys are quite short, so you might need quite a lot of staff to do a whole train in the journey time. Any removals from the train might also affect train operations, causing delays etc. Also I guess it's just not very nice for passengers to have their journey interrupted by border force or potentially see someone get manhandled off a train.

On the UK inward direction I think it is because of asylum as you'd just be able to get on the train. By the time passport checks happen you'd likely be in the UK and getting detained is exactly what you want, so you can claim asylum. Plus you have problems of people hiding in toilets and what not. I believe I read something that the rules changed in the early 2000s when the channel tunnel became a hotbed of asylum activity, but I could be wrong!

 

[ThreeIfByAir]

I believe a short link was proposed which was basically underground junctions about mile and half from Euston (about half mile from tunnel portal at Euston end), near where headhouse is at Primrose Hill.

Would then have been short spurs (actually long enough to hold a 400m train clear of the line to Euston) leading to a single line to join the provision for spurs that are in the open north of St Pancras.

There's decent passive provision for a double link from Primrose Hill to HS1 already. You just need to move the North London/Mildmay Line onto the northern pair at Camden Road, and there's a double formation already in place (with only one track currently laid on it) from the southern pair directly onto HS1.

Honestly, the easiest thing to do from there would likely be to get rid of the Euston-Watford DC lines, hand them over to the Bakerloo*, and have the HS2-HS1 link take over the tracks from Camden Road to Queens Park, and then a short tunnel from there to OOC. That could well require reboring of the South Hampstead tunnels, and would likely require a flying junction at Gospel Oak and maybe another at Kensal Green to take the additional freight diverted via Gospel Oak instead of using the Primrose Hill link. Still likely cheaper than building a tunnel all the way from Primrose Hill to OOC.

* With flying junctions at Gospel Oak and Kensal Green you could instead unite the Lioness and Suffragette lines and run directly from Watford to Barking, although then you'd be shoehorning a LOT of trains into the Mildmay between Kensal Green and Gospel Oak...

 

[HSTEd]

On the UK inward direction I think it is because of asylum as you'd just be able to get on the train. By the time passport checks happen you'd likely be in the UK and getting detained is exactly what you want, so you can claim asylum. Plus you have problems of people hiding in toilets and what not. I believe I read something that the rules changed in the early 2000s when the channel tunnel became a hotbed of asylum activity, but I could be wrong!

There was also the case when someone pulled the emergency stop, forced a door and escaped over the fencing around HS1, as I recall.

I think that was someone being removed, but no reason you couldn't do it in the other direction.

Any checks would have to be complete, and anyone dodgy removed, before the train entered the tunnel.

 

[MarkyT]

There's decent passive provision for a double link from Primrose Hill to HS1 already. You just need to move the North London/Mildmay Line onto the northern pair at Camden Road, and there's a double formation already in place (with only one track currently laid on it) from the southern pair directly onto HS1.

While there are unused former platforms at Camden Road station, there have only ever been two tracks over Kentish Town Road. Widening would be difficult.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not 100% on why on-train checks aren't feasible. Maybe it's a time thing? Eurostar journeys are quite short, so you might need quite a lot of staff to do a whole train in the journey time. Any removals from the train might also affect train operations, causing delays etc. Also I guess it's just not very nice for passengers to have their journey interrupted by border force or potentially see someone get manhandled off a train.

I'm pretty sure that passport control (or at the very least customs) on Eurostar was conducted on the move, and the 373s were equipped with detention cells.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm pretty sure that passport control (or at the very least customs) on Eurostar was conducted on the move, and the 373s were equipped with detention cells.

That is so interesting.

I suppose if there was suddenly a huge demand for rail services to Europe the HS4Air corridor could become a possibility.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm pretty sure that passport control (or at the very least customs) on Eurostar was conducted on the move, and the 373s were equipped with detention cells.

Correct, and I think that was why no trains towards UK ever called at Calais-Frethun because there would have be insufficient time to do on train checks before boundary.

There is a demarcation point in the tunnel (which was agreed as part of the protocols signed about 35 years ago) which marks where UK and French sovereignty and law apply. From memory have seen photos of engraved metal plates fixed to the walls marking the spot.

Of course if you are building a link suitable for next 120 years, rather have to assume that current passport, visa, biometric rules etc might be changed from what applies today. and build system based on possibility of seamless checks where trains don't need to stop in future. The current passports with photo and signature only started 109 years ago during First World War