HS2 - commuter services

[ChristopherJ]

Once HS2 Phase 1 is complete, could we further add a high speed commuter service built on passing loops with out-of-town parkway stations to serve high catchment areas like Aylesbury, Leamington and Coventry?

I'm thinking similar to Southeastern High Speed, DB Regio services that run in ICE lines in Germany or the GTX in South Korea.

 

[The Planner]

Once HS2 Phase 1 is complete, could we further add a high speed commuter service built on passing loops with out-of-town parkway stations to serve high catchment areas like Aylesbury, Leamington and Coventry?

I'm thinking similar to Southeastern High Speed, DB Regio services that run in ICE lines in Germany or the GTX in South Korea.

Would destroy any capacity unless some high speed switches were developed.

 

[JonathanH]

Once HS2 Phase 1 is complete, could we further add a high speed commuter service built on passing loops with out-of-town parkway stations to serve high catchment areas like Aylesbury, Leamington and Coventry?

No. The commuter services will be on the existing lines using the space freed up by moving longer distance passengers onto HS2.

 

[Bald Rick]

In a word, no.

It was considered, and reconsidered, and considered a third time immediately before the decision to proceed.

Even if there was capacity when Phase 1 opens in full - which I doubt - there wouldn’t be capacity if future phases were built.

 

[Mgameing123]

In a word, no.

It was considered, and reconsidered, and considered a third time immediately before the decision to proceed.

Even if there was capacity when Phase 1 opens in full - which I doubt - there wouldn’t be capacity if future phases were built.

Surely it could work if we sent some HS2 trains on the slow lines to Marylebone at around Waddesdon Manor or Aylesbury Vale Parkway? Obviously it would be very dumb but it is achievable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2024 ==

Once HS2 Phase 1 is complete, could we further add a high speed commuter service built on passing loops with out-of-town parkway stations to serve high catchment areas like Aylesbury, Leamington and Coventry?

I'm thinking similar to Southeastern High Speed, DB Regio services that run in ICE lines in Germany or the GTX in South Korea.

I don’t think we can both do Leamington and Coventry. If we were desperate we can add a station near Kenilworth with interchange with the Leamington - Coventry line.

Aylesbury in theory is possible.

But it isn’t really a good idea due to capacity reasons as these trains stopping at the local stations will need to use some time to get back to speed and that takes a long time and will kill a lot of capacity.

HS2 is supposed to run with metro type frequencies so unfortunately it’s not going to be possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it could work if we sent some HS2 trains on the slow lines to Marylebone at around Waddesdon Manor or Aylesbury Vale Parkway? Obviously it would be very dumb but it is achievable.

What? High speed to Aylesbury, then, at best, an hour to Marylebone from there?

 

[Mgameing123]

What? High speed to Aylesbury, then, at best, an hour to Marylebone from there?

Well I did clearly say it’s a dumb idea but it’s the most realistic. It doesn’t reduce capacity too much compared to all the other proposals!

 

[Meerkat]

Depending on prices I would have thought there will be plenty of commuters between Birmingham Interchange and London - live in leafy Warwickshire and drive to the station , which isn’t in the middle of a town. Especially with the rise in partial WFH.
I wonder whether there will be a market the other way - Interchange to Curzon Street. I assume there should be plenty of space on the trains.

 

[eldomtom2]

Other systems like the Shinkansen have such stations. The problem with HS2 is it doesn't go near anywhere worth serving between London and Birmingham.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do think there will be some commuting from London / OOC to Curzon St. Same principle as that there is a fair bit of cmmuting London - MK or Reading now.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Once HS2 Phase 1 is complete, could we further add a high speed commuter service built on passing loops with out-of-town parkway stations to serve high catchment areas like Aylesbury, Leamington and Coventry?

They have abandoned much of HS2 because it is costing far too much so they are not going to throw a few more £billion at it creating passing loops and additional stations.

 

[The Planner]

Depending on prices I would have thought there will be plenty of commuters between Birmingham Interchange and London - live in leafy Warwickshire and drive to the station , which isn’t in the middle of a town. Especially with the rise in partial WFH.
I wonder whether there will be a market the other way - Interchange to Curzon Street. I assume there should be plenty of space on the trains.

Happens now with International to Euston. Interchange to Curzon St is never going to compete with International to New St in terms of frequency of 8tph vs 3tph.

 

[Meerkat]

Happens now with International to Euston. Interchange to Curzon St is never going to compete with International to New St in terms of frequency of 8tph vs 3tph.

Fair point, but how will road access and parking compare? Also (hopefully!) nicer trains and no standing.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

. The problem with HS2 is it doesn't go near anywhere worth serving between London and Birmingham.

Ironocally that's why the route was chosen to run it mostly through open country. It's the same decision as made by the Great Central when building the London extension more than a hundred years earlier. Doesn't it use the former GCR route here and there?

Had it been known that it was going no further than Birmingham, perhaps it could have been built to a lower and cheaper specification with a handful of Parkway stations. That might even have reduced some of the local opposition.

 

[JonathanH]

That might even have reduced some of the local opposition.

Or increased the opposition it if that increased the amount of road traffic in the area, became the catalyst for the development of more housing or took more land than the railway is already taking.

 

[The Planner]

Fair point, but how will road access and parking compare? Also (hopefully!) nicer trains and no standing.

Pretty similar looking at the maps. International arguably slightly better as its a bit closer to the M42.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This is what HS2 would look like if it was built “the British way” like HS1.

I think commuter services in the West Midlands would have been great, but you’d need a Birmingham through station. You could have a Coventry Birmingham, Wolverhampton high speed service

 

[Bald Rick]

This is what HS2 would look like if it was built “the British way” like HS1.

When you say “the British way like HS1” you mean “the French way like HS1”.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

When you say “the British way like HS1” you mean “the French way like HS1”.

Nope! HS1 is a uniquely British design of high speed rail utilising freight, commuter and long-distance traffic. Happy to be corrected but there's no other high speed line in the world like this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nope! HS1 is a uniquely British design of high speed rail utilising freight, commuter and long-distance traffic. Happy to be corrected but there's no other high speed line in the world like this.

Don’t confuse design with how it is used. It was designed and constructed to French standards, with French Operating principles. Plenty of other high speed lines have commuter services, and some also have freight.

 

[Transilien]

Nope! HS1 is a uniquely British design of high speed rail utilising freight, commuter and long-distance traffic. Happy to be corrected but there's no other high speed line in the world like this.

There’s German high speed lines that have commuter and freight on them like the Mannheim-Stuttgart high speed line. So the UK didn’t really invent that concept. I would agree that HS1 is mainly constructed to French standards with its TVM signaling and LGV catenary, even HS2 will use LGV style catenary.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Nope! HS1 is a uniquely British design of high speed rail utilising freight, commuter and long-distance traffic. Happy to be corrected but there's no other high speed line in the world like this.

The new LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire uses TER regional trains equipped with TVM430 known as Z21700.

Z 21500 — Wikipédia

fr.m.wikipedia.org

This is a first in France, thanks to the adaptation of eight of these elements to the specific signaling of the LGV , then renumbered Z 21700 .

The last time I checked, the French did have some freights running on LGVs, they are classed as MVGV.

However, according to this French thread it taxed the locos to the point of exhaustion.

le MVGV, un train pas comme les autres.

www.cheminots.net

Having confirmed this many times, I can confirm that the poor BB 22200 LGVs are used to the very limit of their possibilities, and they suffer enormously, even with only 297 T on the hook... and I have often seen all the BB 22200 LGVs in the Villeneuve workshops, all HS!
Another flaw of the BB 22200: the absence of rheostatic braking, DJ open. The case occurs at the LGV exit of Aisy, on a slope of 35 ‰, standing on the brakes when the square of the Bif LGV of Aisy is closed, just after the lowering-panto... Smell of very hot composite guaranteed at the bottom, at the closed square!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

If you're interested in SNCF MVGV high speed freight, this Twitter thread is fantastic.

x.com

x.com

 

[cle]

Commuter could equally just be a single parkway station on loops, vs a whole separate set-up. At EWR would be my vote.

I do think there will be some commuting from London / OOC to Curzon St. Same principle as that there is a fair bit of cmmuting London - MK or Reading now.

Where in Birmingham is paying Microsoft / Oracle salaries worth the commute from London though? I can’t see it, currently.

Not to say that might change, and it’s healthy in terms of generalist professional opportunities, but B’ham isn’t Cambridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where in Birmingham is paying Microsoft / Oracle salaries worth the commute from London though? I can’t see it, currently.

You can say the same about MK, yet plenty do it.

 

[Danfilm007]

If Phase 2a and 2b was built, I could see quite a market for Manchester Airport/Cheshire to London commuting. I'd certainly be tempted!

 

[cle]

You can say the same about MK, yet plenty do it.

Network Rail perhaps? I don't think many others from London do. Day trips or operations/logistics office visits, yes, many - but we're not talking the highest value counter-commuting gigs here - aside from NR.

E.g. Santander, the most senior things still happen in London, etc etc re daily commuting. Many commute to MK for it, but not from London itself.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network Rail perhaps? I don't think many others from London do. Day trips or operations/logistics office visits, yes, many - but we're not talking the highest value counter-commuting gigs here - aside from NR.

E.g. Santander, the most senior things still happen in London, etc etc re daily commuting. Many commute to MK for it, but not from London itself.

Well I reckon 200 people alighted at MK from Euston on my train this morning, and only about 10 went to NR offices. Sure some were ‘day trippers’, but by no means all of them.

 

[Nottingham59]

Well I reckon 200 people alighted at MK from Euston on my train this morning, and only about 10 went to NR offices. Sure some were ‘day trippers’, but by no means all of them.

And how does that number compare to how many alight from each train at Euston who have travelled from Milton Keynes?

 

[Bald Rick]

And how does that number compare to how many alight from each train at Euston who have travelled from Milton Keynes?

Obviously a lot fewer. Thats not the point I’m making - what I am saying is that there will be some Birmingham bound commuting from London, and more than ‘a few’.