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HS2 Classic Compatible Stock - Class 373?

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TheGrew

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More of a passing thought than anything else is there any reason why the class 373s couldn't be used for HS2 Classic Compatible Stock (assuming the units were displaced from Eurostar/SNCF service). If so then surely that would reduce needing another fleet of non-standard potentially expensive UK Gauge HS trains?
Anyway just a thought, does anyone know if this is possible (or not)?
 
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YorkshireBear

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More of a passing thought than anything else is there any reason why the class 373s couldn't be used for HS2 Classic Compatible Stock (assuming the units were displaced from Eurostar/SNCF service). If so then surely that would reduce needing another fleet of non-standard potentially expensive UK Gauge HS trains?
Anyway just a thought, does anyone know if this is possible (or not)?

Its probably( i can not think of a reason why not) possible yes, but by the time HS2 opens how old will they be? do we really want 40 year old trains operating on a nice shiny new infrastructure project? Probably not, wouldn't look good.
Also they have only ever reached 208mph at a record and usually operate at 186mph. The proposed route has trains running at 225mph in service.

Good idea, and technically possible but not really feasbile or likely.
 

TheGrew

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Its probably( i can not think of a reason why not) possible yes, but by the time HS2 opens how old will they be? do we really want 40 year old trains operating on a nice shiny new infrastructure project? Probably not, wouldn't look good.
Also they have only ever reached 208mph at a record and usually operate at 186mph. The proposed route has trains running at 225mph in service.

Good idea, and technically possible but not really feasible or likely.
I appreciate the trains would be pretty old, though I don't know how hard they have been worked/how well maintained they are. I wasn't sure if the 225mph figure was just for HS only trains (though pathing could be a problem).
And won't they need tilt for the WCML destinations?
Surely they would just be limited to the non-tilt speeds for the WCML sections?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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And won't they need tilt for the WCML destinations?

They were also limited to 110mph on the ECML when they ran to Leeds.
I expect they might work eg Birmingham-Paris if they ever get round to introducing through services via HS2/HS1.
The regional 373/3s will only be 30 years old in 2025 and not intensively used.
 

HSTEd

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They were also limited to 110mph on the ECML when they ran to Leeds.
I expect they might work eg Birmingham-Paris if they ever get round to introducing through services via HS2/HS1.
The regional 373/3s will only be 30 years old in 2025 and not intensively used.

They were later cleared to 125mph on the southern ECML.


As regards to 225mph service running, that is almost certain not to happen extensively as it is not considered to be worth it in most circles in the industry as far as I can tell (even the Chinese gave up on it, and the Japanese decided not to bother in the first place)

320kph will be enough.
 

YorkshireBear

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Yes but again 186mph will significantly reduce capcity on HS2. The point os HS2 is every train can do same High Speed so maximising capcity, introducing slower trains will ruin this. If the Eurostars could achieve 225 easily then it would be much more plausable.
 

HSTEd

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Yes but again 186mph will significantly reduce capcity on HS2. The point os HS2 is every train can do same High Speed so maximising capcity, introducing slower trains will ruin this. If the Eurostars could achieve 225 easily then it would be much more plausable.

Indeed, I agree, classic compatible sets will likely be some shrunk down AGV style thing with couplings to enable sets to be coupled into 400m formations.

Sorry but I thought HS2 was planned to have 250mph running?

The alignment is supposed to be laid out for the full 250mph running (which is about 400kph), however the track and overhead equipment will only be rated for 360kph and it appears that the trains will only ever run at 320kph in normal service.
 

dstrat

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Ah fair, thanks, I guess some places should stop referring to it as a 250mph railway then!
 

Eagle

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The regional 373/3s will only be 30 years old in 2025 and not intensively used.

That's the first time I've heard "only 30 years old" in relation to trains on here :P 142s are only 30 years old, for instance.


Having said that, the current programme of refurbishment of the 373s is being described as a "midlife update", implying that being as they're 17 to 20 years old now they're only expected to be used till they're 35 to 40 (until the early 2030s).
 

YorkshireBear

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The alignment is supposed to be laid out for the full 250mph running (which is about 400kph), however the track and overhead equipment will only be rated for 360kph and it appears that the trains will only ever run at 320kph in normal service.

I was under the impression it was done to be a form of future proofing the route to future faster technologies?
 

HSTEd

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I was under the impression it was done to be a form of future proofing the route to future faster technologies?

Yes, although it now appears that 320kph is as high as it is practical or economic to go, the wear and tear increases are just too expensive compared to the travel time saved.

If we want faster it would appear to have to be Maglevs (I do think we should build one on a route that is largely self contained as a test to find out how expensive they actually are, like London-Norwich or something).
 

LE Greys

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Well, I'd say it would be a good starting point as a cost-saving measure, but then my ideas about HS2 include having all stock classic-compatible so that they can use existing stations and replace IC225s and Pendolinos throughout the network, just as ICE did in Germany. Cascaded Eurostars would have to be a temporary measure, only if the new stock (which I called IC325) was not available by the opening date.

But then my ideas about a British high-speed network are somewhat different from what the government has planned (and naturally I still think they're better).

Didn't one reach glasgow? Sure we have had discussions of this before and a picture cropped up.

Not sure about Glasgow. They've definitely reached Manchester, Rugby, Durham and Heathrow Central (yes, really) but sometimes towed rather than under their own power.
 

LexyBoy

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Surely they would just be limited to the non-tilt speeds for the WCML sections?

Of course, they could run at non-tilt speeds, but that would eat into the (already marginal) time savings of using HS1 for the southern section. Also, depending on how the WCML is run, having a mixture of tilt and non-tilt services could reduce path availability. I guess it might be considered worthwhile removing tilt entirely if it would increase the number of paths available and reduce maintenance costs.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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A bit further than that - I have a picture somewhere of one at Rugby.
This was, of course, all in pre-TASS days anyway.

I think the WCML testing from Longsight got to MK or perhaps Bletchley.
As I recall they couldn't reach Watford until the area signalling was upgraded, and it never was.
It took them about another decade to take down the signs at Crewe to the "Eurostar Lounge" on P5 (which was never opened).
 

43074

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Didn't one reach glasgow? Sure we have had discussions of this before and a picture cropped up.

Yes. Set 3307/08 visited Glasgow Central in June 1997, in preparation for the introduction of Regional Eurostars. I don't think it was under its own power.
 

LE Greys

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I think the WCML testing from Longsight got to MK or perhaps Bletchley.
As I recall they couldn't reach Watford until the area signalling was upgraded, and it never was.
It took them about another decade to take down the signs at Crewe to the "Eurostar Lounge" on P5 (which was never opened).

Ah yes, I forgot 'Le Eurostar Habite Ici'. :lol:
 

Jordeh

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Not sure about Glasgow. They've definitely reached Manchester, Rugby, Durham and Heathrow Central (yes, really) but sometimes towed rather than under their own power.
Is there any more information available about Class 373's at Heathrow Central? I can't even fathom this right now...
 

DXMachina

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I'm sure I've seen a 373 near Hemel Hempstead. It was from a long distance though so could have been on tow.
 

Chris125

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Yes, although it now appears that 320kph is as high as it is practical or economic to go, the wear and tear increases are just too expensive compared to the travel time saved.

I've seen nothing to suggest any change in the plan for HS2 services to operate at 225mph from day 1.

It's true that such speeds aren't viable at the moment but the next generation of high speed trains are expected to have the lower energy and operating costs necessary to make higher speeds viable.

Chris
 
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AeroSpace

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"The wear and tear increases are just too expensive" presumably refers to ballasted track.

Perhaps if and when concrete slab track becomes economically cheaper, this might change.
 

starrymarkb

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"The wear and tear increases are just too expensive" presumably refers to ballasted track.

Perhaps if and when concrete slab track becomes economically cheaper, this might change.

The Germans seem to use it rather a lot...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If we want faster it would appear to have to be Maglevs (I do think we should build one on a route that is largely self contained as a test to find out how expensive they actually are, like London-Norwich or something).

If the Chinese and Japanese are anything to go by - Very Expensive... The Japanese have been touting Tokyo to Osaka (IIRC) Maglev for a while but cost is proving prohibitive (£60bn+). The Chinese have also put the brakes on their system preferring standard LGVs for cost reasons.

The Transrapid Test Track in Germany is being dismantled next year
 

HSTEd

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"The wear and tear increases are just too expensive" presumably refers to ballasted track.

Perhaps if and when concrete slab track becomes economically cheaper, this might change.

No it doesn't, since the Japanese and now the Chinese have both concluded that 360kph running is not viable, and both networks extensively use slab track already.
(The shinkansen is almost entirely slab track as far as I can tell).

The primary wear appears to be on things like the OLE and on the train itself.

The Germans seem to use it rather a lot...

If the Chinese and Japanese are anything to go by - Very Expensive... The Japanese have been touting Tokyo to Osaka (IIRC) Maglev for a while but cost is proving prohibitive (£60bn+). The Chinese have also put the brakes on their system preferring standard LGVs for cost reasons.

The Transrapid Test Track in Germany is being dismantled next year

The construction on the Chūō Shinkansen has been commited to the general plan with all neccesary approvals granted, construction should be starting in 2014.
It happens to reuse the length of the test track which is very smart in my opinion (would we have that sort of forward planning on test track construction here I wonder?).

Part of the reason for the enormous cost of the route is the fact that 60% of it will be in deep tunnels sized for 500kph running (including apparently atleast one underground station), which as you can imagine are enormous.

I haven't heard anything about the Elmsland test track being decommisioned, they are still testing new iterations of design vehicles so I don't know about that....

Frankly we should probably build a Transrapid type maglev route on one of our self contained ~100 mile long intercity corridors (London-Norwich comes to mind) so we can actually gather real world data about the system and how it behaves and on how much it actually costs to build.

But we don't get that kind of spending on infrastructure to justify it as an experiment.
 
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LE Greys

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Is there any more information available about Class 373's at Heathrow Central? I can't even fathom this right now...

Unfortunately, I donated all my old Railway Magazine issues to the GWS for resale, otherwise I'd just look it up. IIRC, it was a Virgin-backed idea to allow international rail services from Heathrow, presumably via North Pole Junction. The set was towed, most likely by one of the EPS Class 37s, although they may have used an electric through the tunnels. It had polystyrene blocks all round to test the fit. The fit worked, but BAA decided they did not like the idea and put a stop to it. A pity, it might have worked.
 

Chris125

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Frankly we should probably build a Transrapid type maglev route on one of our self contained ~100 mile long intercity corridors (London-Norwich comes to mind) so we can actually gather real world data about the system and how it behaves and on how much it actually costs to build.

You're quite correct that spending billions on a financially unviable Maglev to Norwich just to confirm that we're better off building conventional HSR isn't going to happen, it's hard to think of a more colossal waste of money.

Chris
 
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