HS2 Birmingham-Crewe to open 6 years early

[HH]

Story here

The government has announced plans to open a 43-mile section of the HS2 high-speed rail link between Birmingham and Crewe in 2027, six years earlier than originally hoped for.

Crewe has been chosen above Stoke-on-Trent as the next key staging post on the route to Manchester.

Improving transport links with the north of England is a key part of the government's transport policy.....

Money for this, but not for electrification...

 

[NSEFAN]

Electrification doesn't need more money. It needs more people who can do the job. No amount of money can buy experience if the experienced people are already doing other jobs on the list.

Now, you can save a lot of money by having a rolling electrification programme. I would hope that HS2's electrification is done in line with Network Rail's schemes, saving both additional time and cost in retraining everyone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Story here
Money for this, but not for electrification...

No money has been withheld from electrification.
If anything, more money is being poured into NR's overspends.

 

[baz52]

Great news the HS2 between birmingham and Crewe starting 6 years early

 

[linkyork]

If Network Rail had been left to get on with their programme of works things would now be different.
It was political interference where they had the "Northern Powerhouse" etc etc hoisted on them when anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge knew it was impossible to carry out that amount of work in the timescale the politicians wanted us to think.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Now, you can save a lot of money by having a rolling electrification programme.

Exactly

 

[quantinghome]

Electrification doesn't need more money. It needs more people who can do the job. No amount of money can buy experience if the experienced people are already doing other jobs on the list.

Now, you can save a lot of money by having a rolling electrification programme. I would hope that HS2's electrification is done in line with Network Rail's schemes, saving both additional time and cost in retraining everyone.

It will also help that HS2 electrification equipment can be installed before it becomes a live railway. Normal working day, no unforeseen cabling to worry about, cess designed for the masts, structures designed with the required clearance, etc. etc.

 

[kieron]

Electrification doesn't need more money. It needs more people who can do the job. No amount of money can buy experience if the experienced people are already doing other jobs on the list.

If you have time and money, and want people who know enough to do a job, you can get someone to train people who don't yet, and to supervise them as they learn the bits the training doesn't cover.

I'm sure the government is doing this already (as otherwise they'd run out of trained people eventually), but they have a choice about how fast they want it to go.

 

[The Ham]

Story here

Money for this, but not for electrification...

The HS2 line between Birmingham and Crewe was part of the original HS2 proposal Phase 2. All this story is saying is that Phase 2 will be opened in stages and that a decision has been made about which location will have a HS2 station.

All that means is that rather than all of it having the one end date, each section will have a different end date and mean that work can be done sequentially (i.e. all the earthworks are done for Birmingham - Crewe and then those resources move on to do the next section as the following type of work is undertaken between Birmingham and Crewe). It also means that HS2 can start selling tickets for that section and so start to recoup the construction costs.

Also, as HS2 phase 1 will be finishing the early types of works sometime before it is ready to use it will mean that resources from Phase 1 can move straight onto Phase 2 which is why the first section of Phase 2 could open so soon after Phase 1 opens.

 

[Mikey C]

I assume this means that through trains can continue from Crewe to Liverpool and Manchester on the Classic line giving them the immediate benefit of much faster journeys, whereas the Birmingham station is separate from the Classic network?

 

[grumblingalong]

Is that 6 normal years or 6 network rail years?

 

[The Ham]

I assume this means that through trains can continue from Crewe to Liverpool and Manchester on the Classic line giving them the immediate benefit of much faster journeys, whereas the Birmingham station is separate from the Classic network?

Elsewhere it has been mentioned that by opening this earlier it will allow Scotland and the Northwest to see the benefits (at least in part) of HS2 earlier:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/high-speed/single-view/view/hs2-to-reach-crewe-in-2027.html

HS2 Ltd Chairman Sir David Higgins had recommended in October 2014 that construction of the Birmingham – Crewe leg should be brought forward. He welcomed the decision, which he said would ‘bring the capacity, connectivity and regeneration benefits of HS2 to the Northwest and Scotland years earlier than originally planned.’ Completion of phases I and IIa is expected to reduce London – Crewe journey times by 35 min, London – Manchester by 40 min and London – Glasgow by 48 min

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I assume this means that through trains can continue from Crewe to Liverpool and Manchester on the Classic line giving them the immediate benefit of much faster journeys, whereas the Birmingham station is separate from the Classic network?

That was always going to be the case, with Phase 1 joining the WCML south of Lichfield.
All they've done really is move the junction 40 miles north to Crewe, and the benefits are about 15 minutes in journey time terms.
Stafford and Stoke/Macclesfield will still be served by the Lichfield junction (Handsacre), and probably put up with a reduced frequency, or services split between HS2 and the old WCML.
After a year or so of this, all other trains (Liverpool, Manchester, North Wales, Scotland) will use the Crewe junction.

 

[edwin_m]

If you have time and money, and want people who know enough to do a job, you can get someone to train people who don't yet, and to supervise them as they learn the bits the training doesn't cover.

I'm sure the government is doing this already (as otherwise they'd run out of trained people eventually), but they have a choice about how fast they want it to go.

You also need people who have the relevant knowledge already to deliver the training and supervision, which in the short term means they can't be spending as much time applying that knowledge to delivering projects! That is a major constraint when expertise is seriously depleted and needs to ramp up quickly, and exactly the situation the railway is in today.

 

[The Planner]

Is that 6 normal years or 6 network rail years?

6 HS2 years as they are the ones delivering it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's an interesting conundrum taking shape about Edinburgh.
Today, there is tacit agreement that the ECML serves the direct market from London, while the WCML serves the indirect route via Birmingham.
This is despite the WCML having the capability to offer similar or better journey times using the direct Trent Valley route.
This has been going on since early BR days, with a similar decision to force Sheffield/Nottingham services on to the MML instead of the ECML.
Among other things, it avoids "competition".

When HS2 opens, WCML potential times will drop by about 35 minutes, and there will be another 15-minute cut when HS2a opens to Crewe, giving the WCML a material advantage.
Only when the full Y opens will ECML times reduce to about the same level.
But the HS2a publicity announcements only talk about improvements to the Glasgow time.
Somewhere down the line there is a big "east versus west" decision to be made about Edinburgh services.

 

[HH]

Electrification doesn't need more money. It needs more people who can do the job. No amount of money can buy experience if the experienced people are already doing other jobs on the list.

Now, you can save a lot of money by having a rolling electrification programme. I would hope that HS2's electrification is done in line with Network Rail's schemes, saving both additional time and cost in retraining everyone.

Lots of pontificating around this in the railway journals this month. The impression I came away with was that NR were up to their old tricks - over specifying and complicating. Rolling programme or not won't help there.

 

[edwin_m]

There's an interesting conundrum taking shape about Edinburgh.
Today, there is tacit agreement that the ECML serves the direct market from London, while the WCML serves the indirect route via Birmingham.
This is despite the WCML having the capability to offer similar or better journey times using the direct Trent Valley route.
This has been going on since early BR days, with a similar decision to force Sheffield/Nottingham services on to the MML instead of the ECML.
Among other things, it avoids "competition".

When HS2 opens, WCML potential times will drop by about 35 minutes, and there will be another 15-minute cut when HS2a opens to Crewe, giving the WCML a material advantage.
Only when the full Y opens will ECML times reduce to about the same level.
But the HS2a publicity announcements only talk about improvements to the Glasgow time.
Somewhere down the line there is a big "east versus west" decision to be made about Edinburgh services.

In the latest documents there are no Edinburgh times via HS2 given until Phase 2b and although I don't think it says so, it's pretty clear no Edinburgh service is planned until then. Phase 1 gives little if any saving over ECML times from London, and although Phase 2a might, I suspect there will be a capacity issue until Euston is in its final form.

Also note the sneaky footnote that Edinburgh times refer to "Edinburgh Haymarket"! Whenever Waverley times have been quoted previously, they have been the same as the Glasgow times give or take a minute or two.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the latest documents there are no Edinburgh times via HS2 given until Phase 2b and although I don't think it says so, it's pretty clear no Edinburgh service is planned until then. Phase 1 gives little if any saving over ECML times from London, and although Phase 2a might, I suspect there will be a capacity issue until Euston is in its final form.
Also note the sneaky footnote that Edinburgh times refer to "Edinburgh Haymarket"! Whenever Waverley times have been quoted previously, they have been the same as the Glasgow times give or take a minute or two.

Having read a bit further, the "Full Y" will offer services to Edinburgh via the northern half of the WCML and not the ECML (figure 7.1 on p78).
None of the analysis show HS2 services running north of Newcastle.
I imagine there will be a debate with the Scottish Government about how to speed up parts of the WCML north of Golborne and through the borders.

 

[Altnabreac]

Having read a bit further, the "Full Y" will offer services to Edinburgh via the northern half of the WCML and not the ECML (figure 7.1 on p78).
None of the analysis show HS2 services running north of Newcastle.
I imagine there will be a debate with the Scottish Government about how to speed up parts of the WCML north of Golborne and through the borders.

Expect an announcement in early 2016 on this. Indeed the document explicitly mentions this:

Connections with Scotland
64. HS2 is a clear demonstration of the Government’s commitment to the United Kingdom. As designed, it will significantly improve connections with Edinburgh and Glasgow. For example, when HS2 first opens with Phase One in 2026, Glasgow will benefit from a reduction in journey times to London. Phase One will deliver a journey of 3 hours 56 minutes and Phase 2a will deliver 3 hours 43 minutes, compared with a typical journey time of 4 hours 31 minutes at present.

65. When the full “Y” network opens it is expected to further reduce the journey times from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. For example, the journey time from Glasgow to London will be 3 hours 38 minutes. This will benefit the Scottish economy by around £3 billion. We continue to work closely with the Scottish Government to consider options for further investment that could deliver yet further reductions in journey time, recognising their aspiration for a 3 hour journey time to London. We expect to publish an update on this in early 2016.

I'd also expect there to be at least one High Speed service on the ECML north of Newcastle once Phase 2b opens.

This would be the 1tph Newcastle - Birmingham Curzon St service which is logical to extend back to at least Edinburgh (and probably alternately to Glasgow / Aberdeen post electrification). This can then provide a Scotland - Leeds / Sheffield / East Midlands service as well as a Newcastle - Birmingham service replacing the existing Cross Country services north of Leeds.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd also expect there to be at least one High Speed service on the ECML north of Newcastle once Phase 2b opens.

This would be the 1tph Newcastle - Birmingham Curzon St service which is logical to extend back to at least Edinburgh (and probably alternately to Glasgow / Aberdeen post electrification). This can then provide a Scotland - Leeds / Sheffield / East Midlands service as well as a Newcastle - Birmingham service replacing the existing Cross Country services north of Leeds.

This is entirely possible especially if it can serve Leeds on the way (see somewhere in another thread). However it's not in any current published HS2 plans as far as I'm aware.

 

[Altnabreac]

This is entirely possible especially if it can serve Leeds on the way (see somewhere in another thread). However it's not in any current published HS2 plans as far as I'm aware.

No indeed. This is merely my unofficial impression of potential future thinking.

As you say the new Leeds chord does make it much more likely to happen.

 

[snowball]

There is a consultation on refinements to the design of HS2 phase 2A.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...lands-to-crewe-design-refinement-consultation

Edit: now has its own thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135539