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HS2 Announced Tomorrow

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Chafford1

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From the Guardian website this evening:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/10/high-speed-rail-plans

'The government will tomorrow unveil plans for a 225mph British high-speed rail network, including a detailed London-to-Birmingham route that will create more than 10,000 jobs if the multibillion pound project goes ahead.

The transport secretary, Lord Adonis, will announce that building and operating an ultra-fast rail link between the capital and Britain's second city will boost manufacturing and technology industries in the UK. Construction could begin as soon as 2017 with 2027 a likely completion date for the first phase. The route would have to undergo a public consultation before going through parliament.

Adonis is considering a London-to-Birmingham line that starts at London Euston station and does not go through Heathrow directly, instead connecting with Britain's largest airport at a site on Old Oak Common in west London that will be called the Crossrail Interchange.

It will connect passengers to the airport via the £16bn Crossrail route, which links Heathrow to Canary Wharf via central London and is due to open in 2017.

The route will then embark on its most controversial phase, through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire, one of 40 areas of outstanding natural beauty in England and Wales.

The Chilterns Conservation Board, the public body responsible for protecting the area, has warned that swaths of the area could be "trashed" by the route.

However, part of the line is expected to run alongside a dual carriageway in the Chilterns as Adonis seeks to build the line alongside existing transport routes. It will then stop near Birmingham airport and the National Exhibition Centre at a parkway station, designed for car drivers and bus users, before continuing to a new terminal in Birmingham city centre. The main route will continue from Birmingham airport through the Trent valley to connect with existing rail lines, where high-speed services will continue to Manchester and Scotland at conventional speeds.

The journey from Old Oak Common to the parkway station will be swift, taking 31 minutes compared with the current 80-minute journey from London Euston to Birmingham New Street.

Although trains are expected to travel at 225mph, the route has been designed to achieve a top speed of 250mph. The London-to-Birmingham route has been drawn up by a government-backed company, High Speed Two, and will be published in detail, within five metres in urban areas and 25 metres in the countryside. The full High Speed Two report will be published alongside the Adonis proposals, which will become a white paper once the public consultation has closed.

However, the national route beyond Birmingham will be outlined in broader terms, with rail industry sources expecting a "V" shaped network running through Manchester to Glasgow on the west side of the UK and to Leeds and Edinburgh on the east side. Adonis ultimately hopes to reduce the journey time from London to Edinburgh from four and a half hours to two hours 40 minutes.'
 
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Ivo

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I'm sorry, 250mph? As in, one-third of the speed of sound? Honestly, what is the point? Even the TGV falls well short of that, and the French actually have a case for building such a route at such speed. It's not as though there are any especially major cities between Paris and Lyon. On the other hand, if the Government think that 31 minutes from London to Birmingham is a good idea then we will end up in another recession before the next (i.e. not 2010) General Election. At least that kind of speed could probably be just justified to Manchester, but unlike in France I really can't see many Brits abandoning air travel in favour of a slower journey by train (even if it would be faster allowing for check-in and the like). Not to mention that there would probably have to be a Birmingham station.
 

Chafford1

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I'm sorry, 250mph? As in, one-third of the speed of sound? Honestly, what is the point? Even the TGV falls well short of that, and the French actually have a case for building such a route at such speed. It's not as though there are any especially major cities between Paris and Lyon. On the other hand, if the Government think that 31 minutes from London to Birmingham is a good idea then we will end up in another recession before the next (i.e. not 2010) General Election. At least that kind of speed could probably be just justified to Manchester, but unlike in France I really can't see many Brits abandoning air travel in favour of a slower journey by train (even if it would be faster allowing for check-in and the like). Not to mention that there would probably have to be a Birmingham station.

The trains would run at 225mph (360km/h) which is similar to that on the latest Chinese high speed lines - 217mph (350km/h), so not unreasonable. And sensible to accommodate potential upgrades in the future.

The real benefits will accrue when the line is extended to Manchester, Leeds etc. The Conservatives are talking about a 17 mins Manchester - Leeds timing which will help facilitate a Northern City Region.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I'm sorry, 250mph? As in, one-third of the speed of sound? Honestly, what is the point?
Don't worry, what the announcement actually said was "designed to achieve a top speed of 250mph".
So, 1st, that's only its designed max speed, always higher than an operational speed,
2nd, that's the top speed in the brief, there can be changes downwards later, (such as the linespeed currently lower than the RS capability)
3rd, things always change. Its the politicians' equivalent of building in timetable slack.
Expect more like 180mph when its built.
If its built.
 

Dennis

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From the Guardian website this evening:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/10/high-speed-rail-plans

'The government will tomorrow unveil plans for a 225mph British high-speed rail network, including a detailed London-to-Birmingham route that will create more than 10,000 jobs if the multibillion pound project goes ahead.

'


Notice the words "if the multibillion pound project goes ahead".

Bit of a non-event by the sounds of it - a detailed route being proposed that might not be built. I'd feel more positive if it was being announced that £xx billion pounds was being allocated to plan and build a line.

As an aside, anyone got any idea how much money has already been spent on all the reports and studies into HS2?
 

Mojo

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Ah, but the question is; where will it stop in London?
 

the sniper

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Probably several millions, but as long as liebore get re-elected do you think they care!

Haven't all three of the main parties agreed in principle to High Speed 2 going ahead? The only wavering message I've heard is that the Conservatives support the idea of sending HS2 on a pointless detour via Heathrow, they've also made it clear that they maintain the right to change the route of HS2, presumably to give some hope to their friends in the Chilterns...?

Also, as much as I believe Labour deserve the 'Liebore' title, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are just as bad when they need to be, that's just the way the game is played.
 

mumrar

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I'm sorry, 250mph? As in, one-third of the speed of sound? Honestly, what is the point? Even the TGV falls well short of that
Well, on a high speed test a TGV achieved 352.7mph, so in actual fact they can mechanically easily achieve those speeds, drop it by a whole 100mph and it should be easily attainable. I'm sure your 'what is the point' statement was floated about when cars first appeared, or planes, the space shuttle, concorde. I'll point you in the direction of a great advert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZo1m2ZUDl8
How would we achieve anything, if we were just happy for things to be OK???
 

WatcherZero

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The specification for HS2 company was that they would have an initial Train design speed of 200mph but that the track should be designed to support 250mph by having shallow 8 mile long curves and appropiate signalling design for future upgradability, compared to say our existing infrastructure. It was about leaving in capacity for future improvement.
 

jamesontheroad

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As some of you will know, Transport Secretary Lord Adonis will publish a white paper later today about the route of HS2 between London, Birmingham and eventually the north.

I just noticed that in support of this, in this DfT press release, that Transport Minister Sadiq Khan will be available for media interviews at Manchester Piccadilly late this afternoon (just in time for the interviews to make the evening news).

Is it a clue about how muc of the HS2 route to be announced, if Kahn's going to be doing this interviews in Manchester?
 

merlodlliw

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Is it a clue about how muc of the HS2 route to be announced, if Kahn's going to be doing this interviews in Manchester?[/QUOTE]



It was on Radio 4 this morning, London to Birmingham and then mutterings about
the North. The talk was trains at 240mph, the idea is to cancel out domestic
air travel, greener than green etc. The route mentioned was near the
Ruislip line out of London.[/QUOTE]

Also the Minister is in Manchester for a reason
 
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ukrob

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merlodlliw said:
Also the Minister is in Manchester for a reason

Thanks Sherlock!

Please quote properly. A few people In other threads have explained how but you choose to ignore them.
 

thefab444

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A few people In other threads have explained how but you choose to ignore them.

Indeed, it's getting very tiresome. Also the way
he always writes his posts like this.

:roll:

I know old people take a lot longer to learn technical operations such as putting
whoever said:
in front of a quote, but surely it's not that difficult is it?
 

Mojo

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I've merged this with the existing HS2 thread posted before this one.

Instructions on quoting can be found in our FAQ, and also here. merlodlliw, as you have not yet read this I suggest you do. If you need any help please PM me and I'll be happy to help.
 

the sniper

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It sounds like they're sending the line into Birmingham via the Washwood Heath rail corridor. (Just watched his House of Lords speech live on the net). Adonis said it's going to Curzon Street (Surprise, surprise! :p ). So much for the park they were going to put there!

The Conservatives seemed to be saying that they've supported High Speed rail for ages, so it sounds like it'll get the go ahead. Also, a women speaking on their behalf made very negative noises about a Leeds - Manchester HS link, though she doesn't know if that is in the report. The internet feed then cut out so I don't know what Adonis' reply was... :-x :lol:
 

Mojo

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The park is meant to go on the other side of the road, across the recently opened Car Park of Millennium Point. It's the Birmingham City University campus that Gordon was standing on a few hours ago, so presumably that's not happening anymore. http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Sat...goBlobs&blobwhere=1223391694213&ssbinary=true

I saw him arrive by car about 10.30, yet his Twitter feed has a pic of him on a Pendolino!
 

WatcherZero

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Tories wont let Heathrow drop, 10 miles away with a shuttle service is perfectly fine for a highly dispersed airport with no centre. The Airport already has 5 stations which shows just how dispersed it is.
 

the sniper

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The park is meant to go on the other side of the road, across the recently opened Car Park of Millennium Point. It's the Birmingham City University campus that Gordon was standing on a few hours ago, so presumably that's not happening anymore. http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Sat...goBlobs&blobwhere=1223391694213&ssbinary=true

Ahh, thanks.

Btw, just watching the house of commons live, the Conservatives want to start work by 2015 and they want Manchester and Leeds to be in the initial route. They're determined to have HS2 run via Heathrow! Sadiq Khan ripped into the shadow transport minister, rightly, because the Conservatives seem to have no interest in the report and are just plucking figures out of the air to support their calls for it to go via Heathrow.

Sorry if that is a bit of a jumbled mess, I was writing this while watching it live.

PS. The LibDem Transport spokesman supports the report, including not sending the route via Heathrow.

PPS, A link from HS1 to HS2 will be looked at by the HS 2 company to see how it can be done in a cost effective way.
 

gordonthemoron

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How many UK airports are on main railway lines:

1. Birmingham International

How many german airports are on main railway lines?

1. Frankfurt
2. Cologne
3. Düsseldorf
4. Berlin Brandenburg International (opening end 2010)

Plus there are plans for new mainlines through Stuttgart & Munich airports.

Heathrow should be on HS2, theres a perfectly good hole in the ground (landfill site) between Harmondsworth & Sipson for such a station.
 

robvulpes

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The official documents now on the DfT website:-

<http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/>

[if this doesn't appear as a clickable link - sorry. Technical issue this end.]

Robert
 

tbtc

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How many UK airports are on main railway lines:

1. Birmingham International

I'd class Gatwick and Southampton as being on "main lines" (I'm not sure whether you could say the same for Prestwick and others, but the Brighton and Southampton lines are fairly "main"

Two other points to make about the decision:

If the HS2 can't stop inside Heathrow itself, then an interchange with Crossrail makes sense, I think that's a fair way to get there. Plus, lots of other connections (Docklands/ Thames Valley etc)

This train is supposedly going to run through the Pennines, if it runs to Yorkshire. I'd say the Pennines are much more beautiful than the Chilterns, yet the media are only complaining about the Chilterns. Southern bias?
 

the sniper

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Heathrow should be on HS2, theres a perfectly good hole in the ground (landfill site) between Harmondsworth & Sipson for such a station.

HS2 will only save 30 minutes on the West Coast main line journey between London and Birmingham, Sadiq Khan said it'd add 15 minutes to the journey time if HS2 were to go via Heathrow. The current plans are for an interchange at Old Oak Common with Crossrail which will allow a 10 minute journey into London Heathrow from there.

(High Speed Rail is done in the House of Commons, but it's kicking off now in the 'Points of Order' section, it's good fun. I think one of the MP's was moaning about their canteen! :lol: :p )
 

Failed Unit

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I'd class Gatwick and Southampton as being on "main lines" (I'm not sure whether you could say the same for Prestwick and others, but the Brighton and Southampton lines are fairly "main"

Two other points to make about the decision:

If the HS2 can't stop inside Heathrow itself, then an interchange with Crossrail makes sense, I think that's a fair way to get there. Plus, lots of other connections (Docklands/ Thames Valley etc)

This train is supposedly going to run through the Pennines, if it runs to Yorkshire. I'd say the Pennines are much more beautiful than the Chilterns, yet the media are only complaining about the Chilterns. Southern bias?

It is planned to have an interchange with Cross-rail west of Paddington. Whether that is a spur of Crossrail to shift all the terminating train to somewere more useful is unclear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8561286.stm

As this only covers the route to Birmingham, who knows about if it will ever hit Leeds via Manchester (it looks more like go vai M42 type corridor from the statement). I have some agreement with Wolmar that it is only a 2 hour Journey, they are talking about 46 to Birmingham, so I doubt you will get much saving to justify the cost of going to Leeds.

In a perfect world the interchange with Cross rail would be a massive car-park by the M25 - Heathrow anyone ;), like Ebbsfleet on the CTRL.
 
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scattermoon

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Lichfield, eh? Would that mean a parkway station there, for the North West Midlands, or just the infrastructure ready for a Mancunian/Scottish expansion?

I'd class Gatwick and Southampton as being on "main lines" (I'm not sure whether you could say the same for Prestwick and others, but the Brighton and Southampton lines are fairly "main"

You could count East Midlands Parkway and Luton Airport Parkway on the MML in too, I suppose, although their service pattern leaves something to be desired and neither are right on the doorstep of the airport like, say, Gatwick is.
 
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