HS2 and Liverpool

[B&I]

I use Runcorn Station to go to London. Comparing Runcorn and Warrington BQ which I could use but don't because the traffic in and around there is awful. Also car park is much better at Runcorn.

I appreciate that Runcorn is currently a convenient place to board London trains for those in the immediate area, but I can't see any way of continuing to serve it using any high speed service to Liverpool without a) slowing the service down horribly, because of the layout of Runcorn station ans the route over the bridge b) bending any prospective high speed line out of any sort of sensible alignment for carrying a Liverpool-Manchester service.

The solution seems to me to consist of frequent rail connections to the high speed terminals at Warrington and Crewe, better road links at both (perhaps a dedicated route to Bank Quay from the south, and a high capacity car park), and some form of HS2 service to Chester and North Wales, which would cover much of the demand coming to Runcorn from the west.

 

[frodshamfella]

I appreciate that Runcorn is currently a convenient place to board London trains for those in the immediate area, but I can't see any way of continuing to serve it using any high speed service to Liverpool without a) slowing the service down horribly, because of the layout of Runcorn station ans the route over the bridge b) bending any prospective high speed line out of any sort of sensible alignment for carrying a Liverpool-Manchester service.

The solution seems to me to consist of frequent rail connections to the high speed terminals at Warrington and Crewe, better road links at both (perhaps a dedicated route to Bank Quay from the south, and a high capacity car park), and some form of HS2 service to Chester and North Wales, which would cover much of the demand coming to Runcorn from the west.

I'd take my local train from Acton Bridge and change at Crewe if things went that way, it would be the best way. Just wouldn't consider Warrington BQ, from my neck of the woods it's just a disaster getting there . Actually the roads to central Warrington are pretty clogged from everywhere.

 

[frodshamfella]

Just thinking a bit about Runcorn to London services, I think the station must have a pretty big draw for passengers for these serves. I'm saying that because at one time I lived in Prescot and then Cronton nr Widnes. From both locations when I travelled to London, Runcorn was the station I went to and mist people I knew would use.

 

[B&I]

Just thinking a bit about Runcorn to London services, I think the station must have a pretty big draw for passengers for these serves. I'm saying that because at one time I lived in Prescot and then Cronton nr Widnes. From both locations when I travelled to London, Runcorn was the station I went to and mist people I knew would use.

Times have I suspect changed. Runcorn had 777,000 passengers in 2016-17. Bank Quay had 1.364 million. Liverpool South Parkway had 1.983 million

 

[driver_m]

Runcorn and WBQ aren't barriered. I'd be intrigued to see what those figures would go to if they were. I'd echo the sentiments that Runcorn is a railhead though. London services always get plenty on them at Runcorn with a wide catchment area made of Widnes, St Helens, Frodsham as well as Runcorn itself. Makes the decision for the tolling of the bridge all the more infuriating as it's got to have harmed business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Runcorn and WBQ aren't barriered. I'd be intrigued to see what those figures would go to if they were.

I doubt there's much fare dodging on IC services where there's plenty of time to check tickets.

 

[AK1982]

Times have I suspect changed. Runcorn had 777,000 passengers in 2016-17. Bank Quay had 1.364 million. Liverpool South Parkway had 1.983 million

Bank Quay also has a lot more direct services to more places than Runcorn so would expect the passenger numbers to be bigger there (Glasgow, Edinburgh etc)

 

[Ianno87]

I doubt there's much fare dodging on IC services where there's plenty of time to check tickets.

Wouldn't be surprised if you got a few chancers between Wigan and Warrington, given neither are barriered; but unlikey to be a great effect on the stats.

 

[urbophile]

Times have I suspect changed. Runcorn had 777,000 passengers in 2016-17. Bank Quay had 1.364 million. Liverpool South Parkway had 1.983 million

The Parkway figures would be a lot lower without Merseyrail passengers. But it proves it is a viable railhead and not a white elephant. It can't be an impossible task to extend two of the platforms permanently to allow Pendolinos to stop there. With a 2tph Lime Street - Euston service (which must surely come much sooner than HS2 if that ever happens) alternate trains could stop there instead of Runcorn. It would mop up a great deal of the south Liverpool/Widnes/St Helens catchment area which currently uses Runcorn.

 

[driver_m]

I doubt there's much fare dodging on IC services to London. Where there's plenty of time to check tickets.

Not easy trying.to get through an 11 car in less than 20 minutes with other tasks to do too.

 

[driver_m]

The Parkway figures would be a lot lower without Merseyrail passengers. But it proves it is a viable railhead and not a white elephant. It can't be an impossible task to extend two of the platforms permanently to allow Pendolinos to stop there. With a 2tph Lime Street - Euston service (which must surely come much sooner than HS2 if that ever happens) alternate trains could stop there instead of Runcorn. It would mop up a great deal of the south Liverpool/Widnes/St Helens catchment area which currently uses Runcorn.

You wouldn't get anyone from St Helens using LSP. Further away than any of the current stations and awkward to get to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Parkway figures would be a lot lower without Merseyrail passengers. But it proves it is a viable railhead and not a white elephant. It can't be an impossible task to extend two of the platforms permanently to allow Pendolinos to stop there. With a 2tph Lime Street - Euston service (which must surely come much sooner than HS2 if that ever happens) alternate trains could stop there instead of Runcorn. It would mop up a great deal of the south Liverpool/Widnes/St Helens catchment area which currently uses Runcorn.

Agreed. Particularly as it would avoid the walk across Liverpool/faff with the loop line for those going to the Northern Line. I think there is a very strong argument for VTs to stop there indeed.

 

[B&I]

Bank Quay also has a lot more direct services to more places than Runcorn so would expect the passenger numbers to be bigger there (Glasgow, Edinburgh etc)

No doubt, but that seems to me to be all the more reason to focus services there, provided there are decent road, bus and local rail links to it

 

[B&I]

You wouldn't get anyone from St Helens using LSP. Further away than any of the current stations and awkward to get to.

4 miles further away from the centre of St Helens that Runcorn (16 miles v 12 miles), but reasonably well-connected and no toll (a surprisingly important factor in many people's thinking).

Also, Wigan NW is 8.6 miles, and Warrington BQ is 9.6 miles, from the centre of St Helens, so there are plenty of alternatives for it to Runcorn. I suspect much more of Runcorn's demand comes from south of the Mersey

 

[GreatAuk]

I'd take my local train from Acton Bridge and change at Crewe if things went that way, it would be the best way. Just wouldn't consider Warrington BQ, from my neck of the woods it's just a disaster getting there . Actually the roads to central Warrington are pretty clogged from everywhere.

Warrington does have particularly bad traffic (probably at least partly because of the way the road network funnels so much traffic into Bridgefoot (the gyratory over the river)) and I'm sure that this impacts on Bank Quay's catchment area.

However, there are currently plans to build a new bridge between Slutcher's Lane and the Chester Road, to the South of Bank Quay - if coupled with an expanded car park nearby this might make Bank Quay much more convenient for people coming from South / West of Warrington.

There are also longer term plans for a new high level bridge over this ship canal between the Chester Road and West Warrington. That might have the effect of improving traffic through Warrington slightly, again making the station more accessible.

 

[frodshamfella]

Warrington does have particularly bad traffic (probably at least partly because of the way the road network funnels so much traffic into Bridgefoot (the gyratory over the river)) and I'm sure that this impacts on Bank Quay's catchment area.

However, there are currently plans to build a new bridge between Slutcher's Lane and the Chester Road, to the South of Bank Quay - if coupled with an expanded car park nearby this might make Bank Quay much more convenient for people coming from South / West of Warrington.

There are also longer term plans for a new high level bridge over this ship canal between the Chester Road and West Warrington. That might have the effect of improving traffic through Warrington slightly, again making the station more accessible.

Will wait and see if it happens, I avoid the place because of traffic and I don't live that far. If I was going to get a peak morning train I'd need an hour at least. When you think the whole trip to Euston is only two !

I will be sticking to Runcorn for London trips for forseable future I think.

I know of friends from St Helens and Rainford who use Runcorn Station.

 

[driver_m]

4 miles further away from the centre of St Helens that Runcorn (16 miles v 12 miles), but reasonably well-connected and no toll (a surprisingly important factor in many people's thinking).

Also, Wigan NW is 8.6 miles, and Warrington BQ is 9.6 miles, from the centre of St Helens, so there are plenty of alternatives for it to Runcorn. I suspect much more of Runcorn's demand comes from south of the Mersey

If you look at the cars in the car park, a £2 toll isn't going to make much of a dent in the pockets of those particular travellers, so they must be the fabled "Cheshire Set". . Fair point about the bridge though, it must be hammering Runcorn as a town full stop. A Report recently said unemployment has gone up compared to surrounding areas. It was the most convenient by a mile though until that bridge opened.
As for LSP, When i was travelling to LSP during the blockades, it was a pain to get to from mine, but i don't think some people on this forum realise just how big AND affluent South Liverpool is. Theres a little goldmine at LSP if it can be expanded a bit more and especially if a rail link to Speke Airport ever came in. Warrington is the same, very affluent, even if people get the wrong impression from the soap factory outside Bank Quay. Again its a pain of a place to get through though.

 

[frodshamfella]

If you look at the cars in the car park, a £2 toll isn't going to make much of a dent in the pockets of those particular travellers, so they must be the fabled "Cheshire Set". . Fair point about the bridge though, it must be hammering Runcorn as a town full stop. A Report recently said unemployment has gone up compared to surrounding areas. It was the most convenient by a mile though until that bridge opened.
As for LSP, When i was travelling to LSP during the blockades, it was a pain to get to from mine, but i don't think some people on this forum realise just how big AND affluent South Liverpool is. Theres a little goldmine at LSP if it can be expanded a bit more and especially if a rail link to Speke Airport ever came in. Warrington is the same, very affluent, even if people get the wrong impression from the soap factory outside Bank Quay. Again its a pain of a place to get through though.

I'd much rather have a rail link to airport than HS2 to be honest, more than happy with service as it is .

 

[frodshamfella]

If you look at the cars in the car park, a £2 toll isn't going to make much of a dent in the pockets of those particular travellers, so they must be the fabled "Cheshire Set". . Fair point about the bridge though, it must be hammering Runcorn as a town full stop. A Report recently said unemployment has gone up compared to surrounding areas. It was the most convenient by a mile though until that bridge opened.
As for LSP, When i was travelling to LSP during the blockades, it was a pain to get to from mine, but i don't think some people on this forum realise just how big AND affluent South Liverpool is. Theres a little goldmine at LSP if it can be expanded a bit more and especially if a rail link to Speke Airport ever came in. Warrington is the same, very affluent, even if people get the wrong impression from the soap factory outside Bank Quay. Again its a pain of a place to get through though.

The new bridge also acts like a 'Runcorn Bypass' it's not near the town centre at all. I think when the old bridge 're opens it wiĺl be much local travel Runcorn to Widnes .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

DfT has published today a consultation document on HS2 Phase 2b variants.
One of the major changes is passive provision for two junctions on the HS2 route in Cheshire to enable a new route to Warrington and Liverpool.
This is to carry potential NPR (Northern Powerhouse Rail) traffic from Liverpool to Manchester via HS2's Manchester Spur, and also traffic from Liverpool towards London.
The junctions are to be located in High Legh/Rostherne, close to the Manchester Spur junction with the main line, between the M6 and M56 motorways.

No route into Liverpool is specified or even hinted at, but locating the junctions in High Legh points to a route parallel to the M56 initially.
I had thought they would choose a route further north, roughly paralleling the M62.
Either way, the HS route from Crewe to Liverpool will be very indirect, worse than the M6/M62 loop of today, or the railway's original route via Warrington BQ.

That part of north Cheshire is highly sought after, although it has been battered somewhat in recent years with the A556 upgrade works.
The enabling works proposed will double HS2 widths over a couple of miles and raise embankments for grade separation.
I can see local opposition of serious proportions if/when the NPR route is confirmed.

Another change being consulted on is for an engineering base at Ashley to support HS2 construction, using a connection off the mid-Cheshire line.
This will swallow more land north and west of Ashley, some of it only for the construction period.
Manchester Airport's runway is only a short distance (about 3km) to the east of Ashley.
It's ironic that they are ripping up land that if it was sited to the east of Ashley, it could have provided the westerly approach to Manchester Airport that would be the answer to the Airport's rail congestion, providing a through link to the mid-Cheshire line.

All this is in the Tatton constituency of one-time HS2 sponsor George Osborne.
The details of this and other variations to HS2 design are on the DfT web site:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/hs2-phase-2b-design-refinement-consultation

 

[frodshamfella]

DfT has published today a consultation document on HS2 Phase 2b variants.
One of the major changes is passive provision for two junctions on the HS2 route in Cheshire to enable a new route to Warrington and Liverpool.
This is to carry potential NPR (Northern Powerhouse Rail) traffic from Liverpool to Manchester via HS2's Manchester Spur, and also traffic from Liverpool towards London.
The junctions are to be located in High Legh/Rostherne, close to the Manchester Spur junction with the main line, between the M6 and M56 motorways.

No route into Liverpool is specified or even hinted at, but locating the junctions in High Legh points to a route parallel to the M56 initially.
I had thought they would choose a route further north, roughly paralleling the M62.
Either way, the HS route from Crewe to Liverpool will be very indirect, worse than the M6/M62 loop of today, or the railway's original route via Warrington BQ.

That part of north Cheshire is highly sought after, although it has been battered somewhat in recent years with the A556 upgrade works.
The enabling works proposed will double HS2 widths over a couple of miles and raise embankments for grade separation.
I can see local opposition of serious proportions if/when the NPR route is confirmed.

Another change being consulted on is for an engineering base at Ashley to support HS2 construction, using a connection off the mid-Cheshire line.
This will swallow more land north and west of Ashley, some of it only for the construction period.
Manchester Airport's runway is only a short distance (about 3km) to the east of Ashley.
It's ironic that they are ripping up land that if it was sited to the east of Ashley, it could have provided the westerly approach to Manchester Airport that would be the answer to the Airport's rail congestion, providing a through link to the mid-Cheshire line.

All this is in the Tatton constituency of one-time HS2 sponsor George Osborne.
The details of this and other variations to HS2 design are on the DfT web site:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/hs2-phase-2b-design-refinement-consultation

Hasn't the Liverpool Regional mayor been on about this recently, the sudden ditching of an HS2 Liverpool link, there was something in the news about it. That's if HS2 ever happens.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think the Liverpool- Manchester link is being transferred to NPR. I have faith that scheme will happen

 

[Ianno87]

It's ironic that they are ripping up land that if it was sited to the east of Ashley, it could have provided the westerly approach to Manchester Airport that would be the answer to the Airport's rail congestion, providing a through link to the mid-Cheshire line.

You could respond to the consultation and make that point?

 

[GreatAuk]

Hasn't the Liverpool Regional mayor been on about this recently, the sudden ditching of an HS2 Liverpool link, there was something in the news about it. That's if HS2 ever happens.

I saw various news reports at the time, but I'd always been under the impression Liverpool wasn't getting a link... I think I must have missed the short window of time when a Liverpool link had actually been agreed!

It is an interesting location they're suggesting for a connection to Liverpool to branch off. I'm sure it's been speculated before that one possible route for hs2 trains to Liverpool would be to reinstate the railway on part of what is now the transpennine trail East of Warrington, and then run through to what apparently used to be Warrington Bank Quay 'low level' (on what is currently a freight only line - noting there are some currently some quite sharp curves which would need getting rid of...). Then out of Warrington to the west probably linking up with an existing line to Liverpool somewhere.

Certainly seems like an odd place to branch off if they're planning on going North of the M62 which was another speculated route.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

No confirmation was made about the scrapping of Liverpool Link. Seems like the DfT is make 'passive provision' for it to be built at a later date. Good to hear.

 

[MarkyT]

Certainly seems like an odd place to branch off if they're planning on going North of the M62 which was another speculated route.

Going along the M62 corridor would be even further round than via Warrington, which is a compelling traffic objective anyway for Liverpool trains to replace Runcorn and be especially useful for NPR traffic as it could allow longer distance trains to be removed from the CLC route through Warrington. While any new Liverpool route will undoubtedly be longer than the beautifully engineered classic Grand Junction route via Weaver Junction, it will be faster and will avoid the scheduling constraints and operational risk of the the two track railway shared with local passenger trains and many long distance freights north of Crewe.

 

[GreatAuk]

... Warrington, which is a compelling traffic objective anyway for Liverpool trains to replace Runcorn and be especially useful for NPR traffic as it could allow longer distance trains to be removed from the CLC route through Warrington. ...

I quite agree - I might be biased as I live in Warrington, but I think it would make a lot of sense to put Warrington on the NPR/HS2 network. I just hope the planners see it that way and give it a proper town centre station, as Warrington hasn't always been mentioned as a NPR stop in some of the brochures / leaflets etc.

This latest information looks good for Warrington though!

 

[tasky]

Either way, the HS route from Crewe to Liverpool will be very indirect, worse than the M6/M62 loop of today, or the railway's original route via Warrington BQ.

Not necessarily - obviously it may not happen, but the current NPR proposal is for two links to Liverpool - one from Manchester and one for London services. So these junctions may only be part of it. They are after all passive provision. See this map:

 

[Glenn1969]

Would taking that route resolve some of the issues at Castlefield as it could remove Warrington and Liverpool express services from the CLC Lines and take some of the pressure off Manchester Airport station?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Could a new Liverpool link leave from the junction with HS2 head to a new Warrington Bank Quays Low Level station which would head from High Legh to Grappenhall then a short tunnel to a proposed new low level station at Bank Quays then leave in tunnel then come out at Lingley Green (North West Warrington) then head towards the M62 then head west towards Liverpool. East of Court Hey Park it would then head into tunnel to Liverpool City Centre (potential to a new High Speed station).