HS2 and Canals

[YorkshireBear]

A lot seems to being made of the impact on Canals HS2 will have. Some apparently being completely severed after years of restoration???

I can find no evidence for this whatsoever surely we are bridging over them???

Is anyone any wiser to what the truth is as i am struggling to find it in HS2 documents?

 

[Geezertronic]

Taken from the East-West thread, the following comments could apply:

To be fair, HS2 Ltd have made one or two blunders regarding canal routes (existing or awaiting restoration). Not a big issue though, the Canal & River Trust are on the case and take a pragmatic position, neither for nor against HS2, just protecting their interests. Take note Bucks County Council et al

I'd expect HS2 will add a very small number of rail bridges (in single figures?) to the existing canal network - they'll hardly be noticeable in amongst all the other existing rail and road bridges. As you say taking a pragmatic approach is all that is needed, as seen with the canal aqueduct that goes nowhere on the M6 (Toll) that allows for a future canal restoration.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So basically, they forgot to add bridges but the canal trust are working to add them. Simple really. Okay thanks i think that clears it up.

 

[table38]

There was an article in yesterdays MOS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2550215/Revealed-How-HS2-carve-Britains-historic-canal-network.html

 

[Polarbear]

There was an article in the Daily Mail about this the other day. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2550215/Revealed-How-HS2-carve-Britains-historic-canal-network.html

• HS2 is set to travel through several major British towns, such as Oxford
• The scheme has sparked fears for ancient waterways in British countryside
• Trains are incredibly noisy, sparking fears for canal wildlife

Britain's canal network is at risk of being ravaged by the Government’s controversial High Speed 2 rail line, campaigners warned yesterday.
The Campaign to Protect Rural England (CPRE) says the tranquillity of some of Britain’s most idyllic waterways – and canal boat holidays enjoyed by thousands of people each year – will be destroyed by train noise and ugly concrete viaducts built as part of the project.
The group has identified more than a dozen historic canals threatened by the building of the HS2 rail line from London to Birmingham and the proposed extension to Leeds and Manchester.

These include picturesque Fradley Junction, where the Coventry and Trent and Mersey Canals meet, and neglected waterways such as the Sheffield and Tinsley Canal, which features in the film The Full Monty.
The CPRE has called on the Government to move the line away from the canals in its response to the consultation on the proposed Birmingham to Leeds section, which closed on Friday.

A spokesman said: ‘Nowhere in the consultation material have they considered the combined impact of all of HS2’s route on the canal network. The CPRE is calling for the route to be changed so it does not get in the way of canals and, where it crosses them, for viaducts to be designed so they fit in with the local scenery.’

Gren Messham, campaigns manager at the Inland Waterways Association, said: ‘These trains are very noisy – between 90 and 100 decibels. Where the rail lines have to cross a canal, HS2 Ltd needs to get better at reducing the noise.’

There are major concerns about the waterways at Fradley Junction, Staffordshire, a conservation area and tourist hotspot.
The owner of the local Swan pub, Richard O’Kane, 51, said: ‘HS2 will be cutting across the canal and taking this beautiful and highly photographed landmark away from us. I see HS2 as a big threat.’
But in Sheffield, where the local canal has been derelict for years, Gordon Lambert, managing director of narrow boat company Calder Valley Marine, said: ‘The new rail link can only have a good effect. It will bring much-needed prosperity.’

Some sloppy journalism here (even the map accompanying the article shows that HS2 will go nowhere near Oxford) & some hysterical comments from the anti HS2 mob too.

It's true to say that there have been a few issues with the proposed route of HS2 & some parts of the canal network, but all of this is at the planning stage at present so can be sorted out.

 

[Altnabreac]

So basically, they forgot to add bridges but the canal trust are working to add them. Simple really. Okay thanks i think that clears it up.

I think they added bridges for current canals but not for ones undergoing restoration.

Chesterfield Canal Trust got particularly upset by it but none of the issues seem unresolvable, with a bit of thought into making the two routes work together.

http://www.chesterfield-canal-trust...ws/414-maps-of-hs2-and-the-chesterfield-canal

 

[table38]

I think they added bridges for current canals but not for ones undergoing restoration.

Seems fair HS2 should fund those. Isn't there a "bridge to nowhere" provided over the M6 Toll for the Lichfield Canal?

 

[Altnabreac]

Seems fair HS2 should fund those. Isn't there a "bridge to nowhere" provided over the M6 Toll for the Lichfield Canal?

I agree on funding that HS2 should be responsible.

With the M6 Toll bridge the local canal restoration partnership had to raise private funds to pay for it rather than it being included in the project costs from day 1.

I suspect this is what makes Canal Restoration societies nervous about HS2. They probably figure its better to be vocal now and force HS2 to plan at this stage to include the required infrastructure, than have to raise large sums of money themselves once HS2 plans are already confirmed in detail and don't allow for canal restoration.

 

[jopsuk]

Some sloppy journalism here (even the map accompanying the article shows that HS2 will go nowhere near Oxford) & some hysterical comments from the anti HS2 mob too.

Sloppy anti-HS2 "journalism" from the Mail? Now there's a first!

 

[The Ham]

Of course HS2, if they are funding the bridges over canals to be restored, could build parts of the canals to be restored to provide some of their requirements to provide green space and environmental benefits.

 

[Yew]

How can they say the trains are incredibly noisy, when the rolling stock has not been tendered yet, never mind selected or built?

 

[pablo]

Of course HS2, if they are funding the bridges over canals to be restored, could build parts of the canals to be restored to provide some of their requirements to provide green space and environmental benefits.

What? and have the critters move in meanwhile giving the eventual restorers a headache, like the Montgomery canal.

There'll be plenty of severed bits of land that will make suitable mitigation habitat without creating problems.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
I believe that following on from the M6 Toll and the Lichfield Canal events Link that the Government has mandated that no new road building scheme may sever a potential canal rebuilding / restoration and that provision has to be made for a bridge, tunnel or other solution.

I don't know if anyone had thought of new railway build at this point(!) but having a similar rule for new rail construction should not be too difficult to lobby.
Personally I have every sympathy with canal groups on this and wish them well. Where I have less sympathy is for the "concrete bridges are so ugly" brigade...


Anyway, if I remember rightly there was a discussion about this somewhere in the monster HS2 thread. I'm sure I remember some comments about the solution being for HS2 to just provide the earthworks alongside the HS2 route as effectively a bypass rather than providing many bridges where an old canal route criss-crosses the HS2 route.
Frankly, if that's the case it seems pretty sensible to me.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[pablo]

How can they say the trains are incredibly noisy, when the rolling stock has not been tendered yet, never mind selected or built?

Just stand on Stratford platform when a Eurostar thunders through....

 

[tbtc]

Britain's canal network is at risk of being ravaged by the Government’s controversial High Speed 2 rail line, campaigners warned yesterday.
The Campaign to Protect Rural England (CPRE) says the tranquillity of some of Britain’s most idyllic waterways – and canal boat holidays enjoyed by thousands of people each year – will be destroyed by train noise and ugly concrete viaducts built as part of the project.
The group has identified more than a dozen historic canals threatened by the building of the HS2 rail line from London to Birmingham and the proposed extension to Leeds and Manchester.

These include picturesque Fradley Junction, where the Coventry and Trent and Mersey Canals meet, and neglected waterways such as the Sheffield and Tinsley Canal, which features in the film The Full Monty

The canal goes under the Tinsley Viaduct (which carries the M1 motorway), a stone's throw from where the TramTrain will leave the Supertram line at Meadowhall South.

Unsurprisingly this isn't a terribly attractive bit of England's network of towpaths (there's a picture here - http://www.tinsleyviaduct.com/tinsley) - and HS2 is going to be on a viaduct well above the canal (just like the double decker road viaduct).

So, to complain about HS2 and the Tinsley canal really is desperate journalism. "The tranquillity of some of Britain’s most idyllic waterways" isn't an issue here. I like it - the canal is a good jogging route to Rotherham - but lets not pretend that its "picture postcard".

I think that the problem isn't the canals that are being bridged over (to add to the thousands of motorway bridges/ A-road bridges/ existing railway bridges over these idyllic waterways...), its the fact that HS2 may scupper proposals for future canal projects - e.g. the proposed restoration of the Chesterfield Canal - which leads into an argument about how many proposals HS2 should accomodate.

 

[YorkshireBear]

http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/6582-hs2-will-carve-up-the-waterways

THOUGH a newspaper proclaimed the proposed High Speed rail network (HS2) will carve up the canal network, it will do nothing of the sort—but simply cross them, there being no likelihood of an established and navigable waterway being 'carved up'.

The canals that will however be affected are the Grand Union in numerous places, with other crossings of the Oxford, Coventry, Ashby, Birmingham & Fazeley, Trent & Mersey, Erewash, Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation, Leeds & Liverpool and the Aire & Calder.

Little can be done

The Bridgewater and Manchester Ship Canal will also be affected, but as all are navigable canals, it is expected that little can be done about it, as they will simply be crossed, with really no matter of demonstration actually stopping the HS2 once its route is formalised. Put in perspective, a colossal venture like this will hardly be stopped because there is a waterway, no matter what the opposition.

What could be in jeopardy are those canals that are at present derelict but being restored, with a very strong case having to be made to safeguard their route should the HS2 be crossing them at ground level.

Quickly gone

Many canals are crossed by motorways and railways, and some direct on airport flight paths, but boaters usually keep clear when mooring should the noise bother them, and at least though the proposed HS2 will be noisy, the trains will be so fast that the noise will quickly be gone.

It is obviously going to happen, but put in perspective, as far as our navigable canals are concerned, they will be safeguarded, and HS2 will have little effect.

Just found this on HS2 website published today. Explains what we have said to be honest. Groups on restoration routes need to get a move on is all.

 

[D1009]

http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/6582-hs2-will-carve-up-the-waterways



Just found this on HS2 website published today. Explains what we have said to be honest. Groups on restoration routes need to get a move on is all.

Even the Narrowboat World article claims the Grand Union Canal will be affected "in numerous places". From what I've been able to work out HS2 crosses it 3 times, near Greenford, Denham and Offchurch.

 

[eps200]

Hi,
I believe that following on from the M6 Toll and the Lichfield Canal events Link that the Government has mandated that no new road building scheme may sever a potential canal rebuilding / restoration and that provision has to be made for a bridge, tunnel or other solution.

I don't know if anyone had thought of new railway build at this point(!) but having a similar rule for new rail construction should not be too difficult to lobby.
Personally I have every sympathy with canal groups on this and wish them well. Where I have less sympathy is for the "concrete bridges are so ugly" brigade...


Anyway, if I remember rightly there was a discussion about this somewhere in the monster HS2 thread. I'm sure I remember some comments about the solution being for HS2 to just provide the earthworks alongside the HS2 route as effectively a bypass rather than providing many bridges where an old canal route criss-crosses the HS2 route.
Frankly, if that's the case it seems pretty sensible to me.

Cheers,
Jason

At the very least a lick of paint would help bare concrete is pretty hideous.

 

[IKBrunel]

At the very least a lick of paint would help bare concrete is pretty hideous.

hmm, I reckon concrete will outlive any kind of paint coating several times over. So you would either have to commit to repainting periodically (costly) or accept pealing paint in 20/30 years time.

Better to give careful consideration to architectural aesthetics of bridge at design time. Some concrete structures are much uglier than others. I think the current approach seems to be to make the structure strong enough whilst looking slender. In the past it's been more about use of surface textures to break up flat expanses of concrete.

 

[eps200]

you can dye concrete fairly easily, it's a highly underused technique.

http://www.dezeen.com/2013/06/05/the-bridges-of-europe-robin-stam-copied-from-euro-banknotes/

I dont think those are the best that can be done either, those are imitating banknotes, if you imitated canal aesthetics it could look quite nice.

 

[swt_passenger]

The main point surely, is that this is mainly just grasping at straws to discredit HS2.

There are still going to be quite insignificant numbers of concrete HS rail overbridges - if compared to the existing quite ordinary looking concrete motorway bridges. For example boaters heading north on the Oxford Canal will pass under 3 bog standard M40 crossings before they get to the single HS2 crossing. Heading further north they meet the M45, the M6 a couple of times.

It'll just be more of the same, and probably in a more modern design. Panic over...

 

[eps200]

Still if the canal folk are willing to pay for a barrel of dye or whatever would be neat.