HS2 - A vanity project?

[HSTEd]

You assumed so much stuff there I cannot be arsed arguing with you. You are clearly very clever however don't live in the real world. It is all numbers in your head.

Yes, I know I assumed many things.
But we have to assume many things when considering scenarios that don't actually exist.

But even with thirty million houses in super London would not cover a significant fraction of the UK.
It is considerably more realistic than trying to arrest the growth of London - which is simply not going to happen.

Give them time. Ha ha. In a finite world with finite resorces we need to decrease movement.

Why?
There is no shortage of energy and never will be.
We have access to enough energy to support humanity at first world per capita production for many many millenia.

 

[Harbornite]

Mate if an mp stood up tomorrow and said they are going to propose spending a bloody fortune on trains between northern cities I would back it to the hilt. As it is we have a load of willy waiving that in the next 20 years or so we may or may not get trains slightly better than the ones we currently have between northern cities. Who cares? By the time anyone agrees people in Seoul will be able to fly.

Quite a few assumptions there.

As for this

By the time anyone agrees people in Seoul will be able to fly

What's on earth are you on about? People from Seoul are already served by airports, as are many, many other people.

 

[najaB]

We have access to enough energy to support humanity at first world per capita production for many many millenia.

At least the next billion years or so. After that it gets a bit dodgy.

 

[fowler9]

Yes, I know I assumed many things.
But we have to assume many things when considering scenarios that don't actually exist.

But even with thirty million houses in super London would not cover a significant fraction of the UK.
It is considerably more realistic than trying to arrest the growth of London - which is simply not going to happen.


Why?
There is no shortage of energy and never will be.
We have access to enough energy to support humanity at first world per capita production for many many millenia.

Apologies mate. Daft Sunday night post.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite a few assumptions there.

As for this



What's on earth are you on about? People from Seoul are already served by airports, as are many, many other people.

And to you.

Apologies also. What can I say. Difficult week in work.

 

[Harbornite]

And to you.

Apologies also. What can I say. Difficult week in work.

No worries.

 

[fowler9]

No worries.

You know when occasionally you say stuff then read it later and think "I just farted out of my mouth". That was one of those moments, or perhaps even a series of them. Maybe you don't know what I mean. Ha ha. Anyway, it was a poorly thought out argument that was incorrect.

 

[Harbornite]

You know when occasionally you say stuff then read it later and think "I just farted out of my mouth". That was one of those moments, or perhaps even a series of them. Maybe you don't know what I mean. Ha ha. Anyway, it was a poorly thought out argument that was incorrect.

I'll second all that!

 

[fowler9]

I'll second all that!

Blimey. Someone finally agreed with me, sadly it was that I was wrong. Ha ha.

 

[po8crg]

My description of the combination of HS2 and HS3 is that it's a triangle with Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds at the points, and then other places are connected to one of the points - London to Birmingham, Newcastle and York to Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh to Manchester.

But it's the central triangle that ensures that everywhere gets connected to everywhere else at a reasonable speed (OK, except Newcastle to Glasgow). Any of the spurs can be delayed and completed later, but we need that central triangle.

 

[Chester1]

Yeah, at some sort of cost and great controversy. But it's to be seen if the UK becomes a city state...
BTW: Isn't HS3 practically a dead project by this point?

A new 200mph+ line has been ruled out. Transport for the North has decided to focus on gaining funding for a Transpennine road tunnel so that Manchester to Sheffield by car isnt single lane at 40-50mph for half the journey. At 12-20 miles it would be the longest road tunnel in the world and cost £7-11bn. This means HS3 is looking to be at best a Liverpool to Manchester Airport HS line, a tunnel to avoid the need to reverse at Piccadilly and upgrading the existing southern line to Leeds to 125mph. Total cost about £4-6bn.

 

[HSTEd]

Why would we care about reversing at Picadilly?
Surely Liverpool trains would just run direct to Leeds.

 

[Chester1]

Why would we care about reversing at Picadilly?
Surely Liverpool trains would just run direct to Leeds.

The route would be Liverpool-Manchester Airport HS2 Station-Piccadilly-Leeds. Lord Adonis' National Infrastructure report suggested moving metrolink to underneath the planned HS2 platforms at Piccadilly and building HS3 platforms in the undercroft, with trains looping around to join the existing line to Leeds. It would avoid time delay caused by the driver changing ends and cause fewer pathing conflicts. Its only one option but I think its the one that best intergrates HS2, HS3 and the existing Manchester to Leeds southern line.

 

[HSTEd]

I would prefer the money be spent on a section of route looping around the east side of Manchester from Manchester Airport HS2 to join the Leeds line.
It avoids lots more expensive construction in Manchester and tearing the entire existing station apart to fit it all in.

 

[The Planner]

It will hardly be tearing the station up, it will just be an addition next to platform 1 I would bet.

 

[HSTEd]

It will hardly be tearing the station up, it will just be an addition next to platform 1 I would bet.

But that is where the HS2 station is supposed to be going isn't it?

 

[The Planner]

Yep, but if its the cheapest way of doing it then thats what they will do.

 

[najaB]

A new 200mph+ line has been ruled out. Transport for the North has decided to focus on gaining funding for a Transpennine road tunnel so that Manchester to Sheffield by car isnt single lane at 40-50mph for half the journey.

Percentage wise, how much more expensive is, say,a 20m diameter tunnel than a 10m one? (I'm sure you can see where I'm going here...)

 

[Haydn1971]

Percentage wise, how much more expensive is, say,a 20m diameter tunnel than a 10m one? (I'm sure you can see where I'm going here...)

Lots more, largest TBM available today can only do 15m radius, so you would need to use a different technique. I'm not even sure the New Austrian tunnelling method could go to 20m diameter.

 

[Ianno87]

Percentage wise, how much more expensive is, say,a 20m diameter tunnel than a 10m one? (I'm sure you can see where I'm going here...)

Cross section of 10m diameter tunnel = 80 m sq approx
x 2 tunnels = 160 m sq total

Cross section of single 20m diameter tunnel = 314 m sq approx

Therefore you need to remove almost double the amount of spoil during construction for the same length of tunnel.

 

[GazUk]

Hello all

Just wondering, not really knowing that much about HS2, how much of the line (and stations) will be aligned with current lines and existing infrastructures?

And will any old lines that have either been mothballed or ripped up ,be used to create this new line,or is it going to be totally a new line in between the cities and stations that will be created?

I will say this, i know they have been talking about creating HS2 for years now, how much longer will it take to talk about before they start doing anything?

 

[Harbornite]

Hello all

Just wondering, not really knowing that much about HS2, how much of the line (and stations) will be aligned with current lines and existing infrastructures?

And will any old lines that have either been mothballed or ripped up ,be used to create this new line,or is it going to be totally a new line in between the cities and stations that will be created?

I will say this, i know they have been talking about creating HS2 for years now, how much longer will it take to talk about before they start doing anything?

I can't remember the exact location but a short stretch of HS2 will be built along the formation of a disused railway route.

 

[J-2739]

I will say this, i know they have been talking about creating HS2 for years now, how much longer will it take to talk about before they start doing anything?

The proposal date for start of construction is 2017 (June?).

 

[The Planner]

Chunks of the GCR and the old link between Kenilworth and Berkswell get built on. The current lines around Calvert get moved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The proposal date for start of construction is 2017 (June?).

Depends on the Hybrid bill being signed off by the queen. Bits start to happen early 17 if that occurs.

 

[Greybeard33]

Lots more, largest TBM available today can only do 15m radius, so you would need to use a different technique. I'm not even sure the New Austrian tunnelling method could go to 20m diameter.

Indeed. The DfT's Trans-Pennine tunnel strategic study: updated interim report said:

5.10.1 Heavy rail and highway traffic would require segregation in a tunnel, either vertically
or horizontally. The resulting tunnel diameter required with vertical segregation would
not be feasible with current TBMs. The width required for horizontal segregation is
likely to result in a tunnel span that would be at the extreme end of what is feasible
even for much slower drill-and-blast construction techniques.

5.10.2 We believe that with today’s technology it would be necessary to construct additional
tunnel bores to accommodate a heavy rail route. The required cross section for a rail
tunnel is dependent on a number of factors, including line speed, operational and
safety requirements. The tunnel could be either a larger bi-directional single bore or
a twin, smaller bore arrangement. The total number of tunnel bores for a combined
road/rail corridor could affect the scale of the portal areas. However, as discussed
above, the rail portal may not be located in the same position as the road portal.

 

[HSTEd]

Cross section of 10m diameter tunnel = 80 m sq approx
x 2 tunnels = 160 m sq total

Cross section of single 20m diameter tunnel = 314 m sq approx

Therefore you need to remove almost double the amount of spoil during construction for the same length of tunnel.

If you can get a big enough TBM the cost of making the tunnel larger is marginal since all it is is a more expensive TBM and more spoil to dispose of - all other costs remain the same.

 

[snowball]

If you can get a big enough TBM the cost of making the tunnel larger is marginal since all it is is a more expensive TBM and more spoil to dispose of - all other costs remain the same.

Those two might be quite significant costs though. And the power it consumes presumably goes up, and it may get a bit slower.

 

[najaB]

Those two might be quite significant costs though. And the power it consumes presumably goes up, and it may get a bit slower.

I doubt power is a significant component of the overall costs. It would get proportionately slower though.

It really would be good if it wasn't a zero-sum game as far as road v rail tunnel.

 

[Greybeard33]

I doubt power is a significant component of the overall costs. It would get proportionately slower though.

It really would be good if it wasn't a zero-sum game as far as road v rail tunnel.

The study report I quoted above says that it would not be feasible to construct a combined road/rail tunnel using current TBM technology. Separate but parallel tunnels could have some synergies in construction, operation and maintenance costs, but set against that the alignment and portal locations of the road tunnel would be sub-optimal for a rail tunnel.

 

[Ironside]

The largest Diameter TBM is big Bertha which is 17.5 meters diameter. Allthough it has been facing reliability issues.

 

[dviner]

If you can get a big enough TBM the cost of making the tunnel larger is marginal since all it is is a more expensive TBM and more spoil to dispose of - all other costs remain the same.

Size/quantity of the tunnel wall segments would increase as well - so an increase in the amount of concrete required to construct them, plus all associated costs.