HS2, a constantly changing story.

[NSEFAN]

Apart from at maybe heathrow, why would you want to have an M25 station? The whole point of HS2 is to relieve the WCML of long-distance intercity trains. Trying to compete with the existing infrastructure by providing a commuter station is counter productive. The current mainline a should see more stopping trains, with expresses moved onto the new railway.

 

[Muzer]

Apart from at maybe heathrow, why would you want to have an M25 station? The whole point of HS2 is to relieve the WCML of long-distance intercity trains. Trying to compete with the existing infrastructure by providing a commuter station is counter productive. The current mainline a should see more stopping trains, with expresses moved onto the new railway.

I think the point is for people from around the area wanting to go to the North having the option to drive to a station - rather than it being for people wanting to go into London. Bear in mind that not everyone has a station near them, it might be faster or easier for many to get to a station on the M25 by road.

 

[edwin_m]

The M25 goes over the south portal of the HS2 Chiltern tunnel, with the space immediately south of this reserved from any future Heathrow spur junction. Beyond that it's on a long viaduct over the Colne reservoirs. So in engineering terms it would be very difficult to build a M25 Parkway without changing the alignment rather drastically.

Big mappy file here: http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/C222-ATK-CV-DPP-020-000001.pdf

Not sure why it never seems to have been considered, but perhaps public transport in the south-east is considered good enough to access HS2 via Euston, Old Oak or possibly in future Heathrow?

 

[HSTEd]

The Heathrow spur is almost certain never to happen.

 

[WatcherZero]

I actually think its highly likely to happen with services through it to Bristol and Cardiff. Theyve got to do something with the classic compatible stock after phase 2.

 

[HSTEd]

The cost of the Heathrow Spur with its basically-all-in-tunnel-to-get-built requirement would mean it would cost so much as to be a significant fraction of simply building a Birmingham-Bristol HSL which would be far more use.

 

[WatcherZero]

On the contrary, thats a pretty empty route mostly through countryside with local traffic between a few towns propping up cross country services, if it was built you still have to reach into Birmingham and connect to the existing line meaning the only feasible would likely be to link up with existing HS2 line and then enter Birmingham from the east meaning you are going all the way round and entering from the opposite side to your approach.

At the same time there seems to be little appetite for a new HS line to the west country with progressive upgrading of the GWML seen as feasible, you also have a spur to the airport from the GWML in the works. You then basically have a choice, totally new line Birmingham-Bristol or £1bn for a tiny but expensive bit of track linking Heathrow to HS2 which offers fast links to Manchester and Leeds for Bristol/Cardiff.

 

[HSTEd]

Or even a smaller, cheaper section of track south of Birmingham connecting the line to any of the convenient lines in the Birmingham area.

That way you can cut the corner off and you don't save any time going via London.

 

[The Planner]

Which has already been talked about behind the scenes, some sort of connection in the Brum area to allow classic compatbles.

 

[HSTEd]

At which point you would likely be better using that Heathrow money to push electrification as far as possible into the South West.

You might even be able to make Plymouth/Paignton before the money runs out, allowing for some NE-SW XC trains to go HS and electric.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Heathrow spur is almost certain never to happen.

I actually think its highly likely to happen with services through it to Bristol and Cardiff. Theyve got to do something with the classic compatible stock after phase 2.

Personally, if HS2 serves Heathrow I think it would be better to make it a spur from Old Oak to Reading, for services coming from London. That way, it could be used to replace Heathrow Express and act as the western rail access to the airport.

The cost of the Heathrow Spur with its basically-all-in-tunnel-to-get-built requirement would mean it would cost so much as to be a significant fraction of simply building a Birmingham-Bristol HSL which would be far more use.

On the contrary, thats a pretty empty route mostly through countryside with local traffic between a few towns propping up cross country services, if it was built you still have to reach into Birmingham and connect to the existing line meaning the only feasible would likely be to link up with existing HS2 line and then enter Birmingham from the east meaning you are going all the way round and entering from the opposite side to your approach.

Personally, I don't think the Leeds spur of HS2 makes much sense as things stand. IF you could get a Bristol-Birmingham line into Birmingham without having to go round, then you could have a Leeds - Birmingham - Bristol service and the Leeds spur would make sense. As it stands though, the only sensible aspect of the HS2 plans seems to be the main Manchester - London line, though it would be even better if it could call at Birmingham on the way. A tunnel out from the north/west end of Curzon Street to the M6, which it would then follow with a short low-speed spur for classic-compatible trains to join the classic network to reach Wolverhampton and onto Stafford (and potentially Shrewsbury in future). The main HS2 line would then continue onto Crewe and regain the proposed route to Manchester. This allows classic-compatible HS2 trains to provide through services from places like Chester (assuming electrification) and Liverpool to both London and Birmingham, rather than two seperate trains (one for London and one for Birmingham) on the current classic network or with the proposed HS2 with Curzon Street as a terminous. Map of my proposed route out of Birmingham here.

Or even a smaller, cheaper section of track south of Birmingham connecting the line to any of the convenient lines in the Birmingham area.

That way you can cut the corner off and you don't save any time going via London.

Which has already been talked about behind the scenes, some sort of connection in the Brum area to allow classic compatbles.

But would that still require a reversal at Birmingham Curzon Street? If HS2 Leeds trains can get into Curzon Street and leave, without reversal, onto the classic lines bound for Bristol/Plymouth the Leeds spur starts to look much more useful.

 

[Altnabreac]

Or even a smaller, cheaper section of track south of Birmingham connecting the line to any of the convenient lines in the Birmingham area.

That way you can cut the corner off and you don't save any time going via London.

Which has already been talked about behind the scenes, some sort of connection in the Brum area to allow classic compatbles.

But would that still require a reversal at Birmingham Curzon Street? If HS2 Leeds trains can get into Curzon Street and leave, without reversal, onto the classic lines bound for Bristol/Plymouth the Leeds spur starts to look much more useful.

As I understand it this is likely to consist of a junction in the Washwood Heath area linking HS2 with the WCML to Birmingham allowing trains from HS2's northern branches to access Birmingham New Street via existing lines.

They could then run on to Worcester, Bristol and the south west via the existing cross country routes.

This would require the Birmingham - Bristol cross country routes to be electrified but almost everyone thinks this is certain to happen within the HS2 build timescale.

HS2 Ltd however are very reluctant to suggest any links to infrastructure which does not yet exist for fear of those schemes being added to the HS2 bill in the way the IEA tried to add Crossrail 2 to the HS2 cost to create their £80Bn number.

A Washwood Heath junction would also allow a classic compatible Shrewsbury - Telford - Wolverhampton - Sandwell & Dudley - Birmingham New Street service to access HS2 towards London. Again however this would require more electrification.

Doesn't mean initial planning isn't happening behind the scenes and once future electrification plans are announced we may see more of this scheme.

In the longer term you could see the first phase of High Speed Rail for the south west being a new line diverging south of Birmingham Interchange station, shadowing the M42 and rejoining the Cross Country route somewhere south of Bromsgrove.

That would speed up journeys, increase capacity and provide new connections for a relatively modest cost being only around 30-40km of new track.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Personally, I don't think the Leeds spur of HS2 makes much sense as things stand. IF you could get a Bristol-Birmingham line into Birmingham without having to go round, then you could have a Leeds - Birmingham - Bristol service and the Leeds spur would make sense. As it stands though, the only sensible aspect of the HS2 plans seems to be the main Manchester - London line, though it would be even better if it could call at Birmingham on the way
But would that still require a reversal at Birmingham Curzon Street? If HS2 Leeds trains can get into Curzon Street and leave, without reversal, onto the classic lines bound for Bristol/Plymouth the Leeds spur starts to look much more useful.

As I understand it this is likely to consist of a junction in the Washwood Heath area linking HS2 with the WCML to Birmingham allowing trains from HS2's northern branches to access Birmingham New Street via existing lines.

They could then run on to Worcester, Bristol and the south west via the existing cross country routes.

This would require the Birmingham - Bristol cross country routes to be electrified but almost everyone thinks this is certain to happen within the HS2 build timescale.

It is a shame that Curzon St isn't being designed with the option of becoming a through station in the future. If it was then it would be possible to tunnel through Birmingham and come to somewhere in the south west of the city and link to the Birmingham - Bristol line (and potentially a future dedicated Birmingham - Bristol HS line). Services from the south west could then call at Curzon St and avoid the need to have some Classic compatibles services calling at New St and everything else at Curzon St. Even I acknowledge though that this would mean sinking Curzon St into the ground which would add significant costs to the scheme for something that may not happen anyway, we can but dream though.

HS2 Ltd however are very reluctant to suggest any links to infrastructure which does not yet exist for fear of those schemes being added to the HS2 bill in the way the IEA tried to add Crossrail 2 to the HS2 cost to create their £80Bn number.

A Washwood Heath junction would also allow a classic compatible Shrewsbury - Telford - Wolverhampton - Sandwell & Dudley - Birmingham New Street service to access HS2 towards London. Again however this would require more electrification.

Doesn't mean initial planning isn't happening behind the scenes and once future electrification plans are announced we may see more of this scheme.

Interesting suggestion, hopefully we may have hear something in Higgins report on October 27th.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is a shame that Curzon St isn't being designed with the option of becoming a through station in the future. If it was then it would be possible to tunnel through Birmingham and come to somewhere in the south west of the city and link to the Birmingham - Bristol line (and potentially a future dedicated Birmingham - Bristol HS line). Services from the south west could then call at Curzon St and avoid the need to have some Classic compatibles services calling at New St and everything else at Curzon St. Even I acknowledge though that this would mean sinking Curzon St into the ground which would add significant costs to the scheme for something that may not happen anyway, we can but dream though.

Well, I think it should be sunk into the ground (but the station itself probably needn't be actually in tunnel, it could be open-top) and have a through route to Manchester from the outset. The bypass line round the east of Birmingham would then not be needed, which would offset the additional cost slightly.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well, I think it should be sunk into the ground (but the station itself probably needn't be actually in tunnel, it could be open-top) and have a through route to Manchester from the outset. The bypass line round the east of Birmingham would then not be needed, which would offset the additional cost slightly.

The reason this won't happen is linked to the whole way HS2 Limited are thinking about the future operation of the High Speed Line as a series of separate routes connecting dedicated city pairs.

This is very different to traditional UK railway operation so it creates a bit of "cognitive dissonance" for those of us who are used to the traditional way of doing things.

They essentially see 2 types of services operating on HS2.

The first is what we are used to - mainly classic compatible services linking a number of different towns and cities in the north to London and Birmingham and providing intermediate journey opportunities as well. These are:
2tph Liverpool - London
1tph Preston - London
1tph Newcastle - Birmingham
1tph Edinburgh / Glasgow - Birmingham
2tph Leeds - Birmingham

The second is high speed non stop 400m European gauge services linking a single high demand city pair to each other. These are:
3tph London - Birmingham
3tph London - Manchester
2tph Birmingham - Manchester

The 8tph Edinburgh / Glasgow / Newcastle / York / Leeds - London services are somewhere in between the 2 concepts.

The advantage of these high frequency non stop city pairs is to allow demand based pricing specific to the flow and therefore increase passenger occupancy significantly. Think of them as more like airline services where the aim is to have each train priced to run at around 80% occupancy for the whole journey.

Effectively you save money because you aren't carrying an empty seat from Glasgow - Birmingham that is only used for the final stretch from Birmingham - London.

If there is sufficient demand to run at least a 2tph service between each city pair (which HS2 believe there is) then no one suffers from lack of connections as each city pair has direct trains to where people want to go.

So the question is what additional services would use a through Birmingham station in either direction? Why slow down London - Manchester passengers by calling at Curzon Street when we can justify running 2-3tph dedicated non stop services between each pair of Birmingham, London, and Manchester?

 

[edwin_m]

Extending from Curzon Street towards Manchester wouldn't just be a question of tunnelling under Birmingham (probably under New Street station which is virtually underground already!). The route would also have to find its way through the built-up areas Black Country which would be much more expensive, intrusive and probably slower than staying in open country as currently planned.

 

[fowler9]

I have long been a hater of the proposed high speed network for reasons I won't bore people with again now. After actually using it in Europe I say we go for it. I'm no nimby either. The line from Liverpool to London passes the bottom of my garden. If the route can be justified now or in the near future then build it. I doubt the money will ever be made available but if a route could be built to Liverpool I would be made up. All it needs is the will to do it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, I think it should be sunk into the ground (but the station itself probably needn't be actually in tunnel, it could be open-top) and have a through route to Manchester from the outset. The bypass line round the east of Birmingham would then not be needed, which would offset the additional cost slightly.

The reasons why they didn't do this is plain from the original report, there would have been completely unacceptable demolition requirements in Birmingham.

But I expect you already knew that.

 

[adrock1976]

Extending from Curzon Street towards Manchester wouldn't just be a question of tunnelling under Birmingham (probably under New Street station which is virtually underground already!). The route would also have to find its way through the built-up areas Black Country which would be much more expensive, intrusive and probably slower than staying in open country as currently planned.

Not forgetting that you also have the Birmingham Canals Navigation main line to Wolverhampton in the way too at the northern tunnel portal heading out of New Street.

In peace

Adam