HS1 - The total rip off line

[Failed Unit]

It is a while since I have picked on HS1,

London - Canterbury and London - Peterborough are about the same distance.

Look at the difference in fares.

London - Canterbury (Peterborough via East Coast)
Off peak Single £30.10 (£27.90)
Advance Single not avialable (start from £7.10)
Anytime Single £31.20 (£47.00)
Off Peak day return £30.20 (£28.00)
Off Peak return £30.50 (£66.70 Super off-peak £39.40)
Anytime Day £32.90 (not avialable?)
Anytime Return £57.70 (£94.00)
1st Return £78.60 (£124.00)

How South Eastern can get away with selling the 1st Return between St Pancras and any HS1 destination is beyond me, I hope they tell people that the trains don't have 1st class so they can avoid another rip off!

One thing that does strike me that even now the HS1 fares are reasonable in the peak but off-peak the HS1 seems to be a total rip off, no advanced purchase tickets on offer. Worse rolling stock as an mk3 and mk4 are much better than 395s. When you consider that FCC offer tickets cheaper still it does make me wonder if South Eastern will offer some offer some sort of incentive to passengers to use the very empty off-peak service. If anyone has ever travelled out of St Pancras before the off-peak kicks in towards Ashford will tell you the trains are very empty.

Does anyone feel that HS1 is value for money, when all you are getting is a 125mph, which on ECML and WCML cost you less to travel on off-peak anyway. Also is a 365 much worse inside than a 395 when you consider the fare FCC offer?

/rant

 

[atomicdanny]

The HS1 Fares are a joke for the most part (except for all the fares where you can still use it and go up north). Personally i think that they should either cut the Faversham Services back to 1 Train an hour or scrap the higher fares completely for that route (if not altogether!) Since most of them are almost empty anyway!

For example the Faversham route in my opinion should stop at say (the ashford ones are perfect for where they stop though)

Faversham - Sittingbourne - Chatham - Strood - Gravesend - Ebbsfleet - Stratford - St Pancras

 

[LexyBoy]

Have I missed something? - in most of your examples the Peterborough fare is very similar to, or significantly more than, the Canterbury fare. Sure the trains aren't as nice, but that's the case on lots of routes - London to Oxford could be HST or 165, but the ticket's the same regardless.

Having 1st tickets is a bit cheeky however!

Off Peak return £30.50 (£66.70 Super off-peak £39.40)

Is this right? £66.70 is more than twice the equivalent single quoted!

 

[Failed Unit]

Have I missed something? - in most of your examples the Peterborough fare is very similar to, or significantly more than, the Canterbury fare. Sure the trains aren't as nice, but that's the case on lots of routes - London to Oxford could be HST or 165, but the ticket's the same regardless.

Having 1st tickets is a bit cheeky however!



Is this right? £66.70 is more than twice the equivalent single quoted!

Yes this is correct, so I don't think they will sell many of them when you are cheaper with 2 singles.

The FCC are significantly cheaper so in this case you are paying a premium on this line for IC. For example the anytime return is £48 with FCC only.

My point was that on the off peak fares which on the East Coast trains are cheaper, coupled with the fact east coast offer advance purchase discounts to fill up empty seats. The HS1 service from my experience is luckly to be 1/2 full, South Eastern say loading are disappointing. So why don't they offer some cheaper fares to fill up these empty seats. I am sure with the above inflation rises HS1 is premitted to have this gap will be closer soon as well.

 

[Flying Snail]

Sorry but I don't get it. You are saying HS1 is a rip-off but you give a string of examples where the only HS1 fares that are higher are around 6-7% above the EC fares. The EC anytime fares are much higher than the SE ones, by 50-100% so surely if anything is a rip-off it is those.

BTW, why is every instance of something being slightly more expensive than the purchaser wants to pay now a "rip-off"? There are plenty of things that are rip-offs such as the types featured on the likes of Rogue Traders who charge unsuspecting people £500 to change a £5 light switch. Rail fares that are a bit more than other rail fares are not rip-offs.

 

[Geezertronic]

So it is the fault of HS1 (a high speed railway line) that prices are high? Not the TOCs fault? What do Eurostar passengers who use the line to go from London to Europe think?

 

[Failed Unit]

I just find the line extremely expensive to use but the service is no better than any other inter-city route, but you don't have the option of advance purchase tickets should you want to plan ahead. I can't see why South Eastern charge so much off peak for a service where the majority of people don't want to go on trains that are normally empty.

I often find that when I am travelling from Scotland and plan ahead the bit between on HS1 is often the same price as the bit between London & Scotland!

I guess if I was a fair person I would have at simular distances in the South East,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So it is the fault of HS1 (a high speed railway line) that prices are high? Not the TOCs fault? What do Eurostar passengers who use the line to go from London to Europe think?

I think most people on this line are annoyed that their journeys on the "classic" services are slower. So they are paying more (as the classic routes have also gone up above inflation) to use a worse service, or they bit the bullet and use HS1 to go somewhere they don't want to go.

London - Europe passengers are happy as they are competing with the airlines

 

[Geezertronic]

I think most people on this line are annoyed that their journeys on the "classic" services are slower. So they are paying more (as the classic routes have also gone up above inflation) to use a worse service, or they bit the bullet and use HS1 to go somewhere they don't want to go.

London - Europe passengers are happy as they are competing with the airlines

Being pedantic, that's hardly the fault of HS1 though?

 

[cuccir]

The HS1 Fares are a joke for the most part (except for all the fares where you can still use it and go up north)

Where you do travel further north it does, however, become very good value - particularly if you are travelling into/from Euston, St P or Kings X as it means no need to use the tube!

 

[Failed Unit]

Being pedantic, that's hardly the fault of HS1 though?

True, I should save my ranting for Southeastern / DFT - rather than a bit of track Running on HS1 doesn't prevent SouthEastern from offering fares that will get passengers onto say the 0842 St Pancras - Ramsgate service rather than running it nearly empty like they do now but with full peak fares! I wonder if DFT do.

 

[yorkie]

It is a while since I have picked on HS1,

London - Canterbury and London - Peterborough are about the same distance.

Nowhere in the South East is as far from London as Peterborough.

A direct comparison with Ashford (approx 50 miles) is possible with St Neots, however, and I will do this later in this post.

BTW, why is every instance of something being slightly more expensive than the purchaser wants to pay now a "rip-off"?

Because that's what a "rip-off" is! It's subective. I think they are a rip-off, you don't. I have the right to think they are a rip-off and I will do so whatever you think. Of course you have the right to disagee and think they are not!

There are plenty of things that are rip-offs such as the types featured on the likes of Rogue Traders who charge unsuspecting people £500 to change a £5 light switch. Rail fares that are a bit more than other rail fares are not rip-offs.

On the contrary; they are frauds not rip-offs, by definition.

So it is the fault of HS1 (a high speed railway line) that prices are high? Not the TOCs fault? What do Eurostar passengers who use the line to go from London to Europe think?

I don't think anyone is blaming the infrastructure. It is the existence of the service using it, and the policy decisions by the DfT that are to blame.

I will now do a more sensible comparison.

St Neots (SNO) - London vs Ashford Intl (AFK) - London

St Neots.
Distance from King's Cross/St Pancras: 48.7 miles
Annual season £4080
Super Off Peak Day Rtn £16.00
Off Peak Day Rtn £21.00
Off Peak Rtn £29.00
Anytime Rtn £33.50

Ashford Intl
Distance from King's Cross/St Pancras: 50.8 miles
Annual season £5192
Super Off Peak Day Rtn £Not available
Off Peak Day Rtn £28.90
Off Peak Rtn £30.40
Anytime Rtn £55.80

Ashford could be considered aa rip-off compared to St Neots, that is opinion and it can be justified by the figures above. Feel feel to disagree but the figures speak for themselves IMO.

So, what's the best commute?

Ashford commuters have a quicker journey, don't they? That's what they pay £1112 extra per year for. Err, nope! The extra £1112 per year is to save about 4 minutes, on a journey that is only 2 miles longer. That's negligible, the huge additional cost is totally unjustifiable.

Arrivals into London between 0745 and 0905

St Neots 0717  0740   0748  0820
London   0800  0823   0831  0903

Ashford  0713  0743   0813  
London   0748  0819   0848

Departures from London between 1710 and 1810

London   1710  1740  1810
St Neots 1749  1820  1849

London   1710  1740  1810
Ashford  1746  1816  1846

Note that journey times are 3-4 minutes difference going from London, but to London, FCC has additional padding as seen above. In reality, passengers leaving St Neots at 0740 today arrived into London before passengers on the equivalent train from Ashford Intl, despite the latter being on time at Stratford, presumably it had to wait for a platform. And the 0717 from St Neots arrived into London significantly earlier than the 0713 from Ashford. Of course, on other days this may vary.

My conclusion? HS1 is a total rip-off.

I am opposed to any proposals to do a similar ticketing disaster with HS2. If they are going to make the same mistakes we'd be much better off without it!

 

[WatcherZero]

Passenger use is massivley up on the line however despite the increased fares, therefore in the general publics eyes the service must outweight the cost and be better than it was before. And before you say 'well their storing cars' they ordered the capacity to work the Olympics services, over and above normal operation.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am not sure what you mean watcher zero? Passenger numbers up on hs1? in isolation of course this is true it is only open 1 year and changes to the classic line have forced people onto HS1. People going north of London will use it anyway but the don't get penalised with the high speed tax anyway. If you are saying however the total flow between Ashford and London has increased then you could argue success. Is this what you are saying the total flow between towns served by HS1 has increased more that other towns a similar distance away? I can tell you now the trains still run very empty in the contra peak! They are not exactly bursting in the peak either!

 

[Greenback]

My conclusion? HS1 is a total rip-off.

I am opposed to any proposals to do a similar ticketing disaster with HS2. If they are going to make the same mistakes we'd be much better off without it!

Excellent post, I couldn't agree more with the conclusions!

 

[Mintona]

Sorry to be a pain, but can I see all these figures stating that high speed services are empty and not well used?

You say the 08.42 departure to Margate is empty, can you please compare that with the loading on a similar 08.40ish COMMUTER train from Kings Cross?

Remember high speed services aren't intercity trains, they are commuter trains getting people to and from work. Comparing them with HSTs and MkIVs isn't comparing them like for like, comparing them with 365s and 317s is the accurate comparison, and I think you'll find a 395 is superior in almost every single way.

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure there are other distances of fifty-ish miles around the UK where fares differ - for various reasons. As we don't have a national "pence per mile" ticketing, these things will always happen.

My own view is that HS1 services will sort themselves out after the Olympics. I can understand the "soft launch" they have started with though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Mmm South Eastern HS1 usage is 7.2m a year, and yes as a communter service off peak services will be a lot emptier.
Im seeing a lot of 'HS1 usage figures are 50% below predictions' being parroted by anti HS2 groups but they never identify an original source for the claim.

 

[Failed Unit]

My question is how many of those passenger are new to rail rather than bullied off their other services. Yes new routes such as Alloa may have use the train from Stirling anyway but if they now no longer drive to stirling that is a success. Moving existing passengers is not how many of those passengers use travel Ashford - Oxford street and only use HS1 because the journey on the classic route is so much slower? The are rightly annoyed they are paying more for this. The improvements in the journey time for eurostar and journeys like Milton keynes - Ashford are of course welcome, but you don't pay HS1 tax for that!

 

[Oliver]

I used SE HS1 services for the fist time today. 09:55 from StP had about 20 passengers when we left, but more from Gravesend when it picked up a few local passengers. 13:43 from Ashford to StP had 98 passengers on arrival in London - I counted. Rear coach was empty, I was in the next one with 3 other people, even front coach was less than half full.

Overall impression; trains are OK but a bit barren, not even a trolley. Off-peak service to Faversham doesn't seem to make sense; scarcely any quicker than non-HS1 trains which it connects into. Ashford service offers more benefits and if I was a regular user I might be willing to pay the extra cost.

 

[Failed Unit]

16% of journeys on the line are from passengers new to rail. Not sure if that is the ebbsfleet mob. But I still think South Eastern need to make more use of the spare capacity by reducing fares off-peak. I still cant see someone from Whitstable enjoying paying more for a slower journey to fund a line they dont want to use!

 

[atomicdanny]

Overall impression; trains are OK but a bit barren, not even a trolley. Off-peak service to Faversham doesn't seem to make sense; scarcely any quicker than non-HS1 trains which it connects into. Ashford service offers more benefits and if I was a regular user I might be willing to pay the extra cost.

The faversham services do make a lot of difference if say you are going up north (e.g. to any station via Kings Cross or St Pancras) since you would not have to use the underground! For anyone wanting south london however its not very good for that being all of a couple of minutes faster. (my normal service used to be 1 hour 40, now its 1 hour 47 to victoria or 1 hour 46 with a change at faversham to st pancras). Personally I think that they should stop this service altogether from Faversham since its a scam...or stop charging the stupid fares that they do for it

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't think anyone is blaming the infrastructure. It is the existence of the service using it, and the policy decisions by the DfT that are to blame.

....

My conclusion? HS1 is a total rip-off.

I know, I was just being pedantic because if anything, it should be stated that the high speed commuter services on HS1 are a rip-off rather than HS1 itself if that is the opinion

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

S E T have priced me of HS1. It was going to cost me £558 a month (including travelcard) It costs me £417 on the old line and I dont need a travelcard. No brainer. Nice while it lasted though, I do like the 395s.

 

[GodAtum]

i used the 0755 st pancras - Gravesend today and found it to be a pleasant and quick journey, a lot better then taking the slow train!

 

[deltic]

S E T have priced me of HS1. It was going to cost me £558 a month (including travelcard) It costs me £417 on the old line and I dont need a travelcard. No brainer. Nice while it lasted though, I do like the 395s.

SET have not priced you off HS1, but DfT might have.

Going back to the OP a rip-off is surely a case where the provider of the service charges you far more than the cost of providing it - or allows the cost of providing it to be excessive compared to what it should be. Given the rail network is heavily subsidised and even McNulty sees costs being capable of only being reduced by a relatively small percentage unless huge reductions are made in staff costs then rail fares can not be regarded as being a rip-off except to those people who dont travel by train and have to pay the subsidy.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

SET have not priced you off HS1, but DfT might have.

S'funny I'm sure the gentleman in the booking office works for S E T....

 

[deltic]

S'funny I'm sure the gentleman in the booking office works for S E T....

Sadly the booking office staff dont set the fares - it would be interesting if they did!

 

[Deerfold]

SET set the fares - the DfT have allowed them to charge more on HS1 (and more on the old lines just not quite as much more). I don't remember them forcing them to charge that much more...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SET have not priced you off HS1, but DfT might have.

<...> rail fares can not be regarded as being a rip-off except to those people who dont travel by train and have to pay the subsidy.

And even then you could argue that a subsidy to rail users results in quieter roads for those that use the roads...

 

[cav1975]

Living in the Medway towns I have used the HS1 service occasionally. (I don't have to commute by rail).

The extra fare for HS1 is simply not worth it for a leisure user. You pay extra and end up 2 or 3 minutes quicker into St P than into Vic. Result - the trains off peak are almost empty and we have to put up with the reduced and slowed down Victoria service. On top of that the 375s are more comfortable (except the 375/9s) and have a trolley buffet.

I can see the point of charging extra from Ashford and points East, but on the Faversham branch there is no benefit.

However recently I have taken to driving to Ebbsfleet, using the £5 car park and HS1 from there.That is not a bad choice - cheaper and quicker overall than park & rail from Rainham and 4 trains an hour.

I think that South Eastern marketing and fares people should get together and work on improving the attractiveness of the Faversham branch before DfT tell them to stop running it.

 

[Cletus]

Dover Priory - Charing Cross "fast" used to be 1hr 30-35mins.

The St Pancras service started at 1hr 7mins.

The Dover Priory - Charing Cross then became a 1hr 58mins journey.

South Eastern then began the spin that the St Pancras service was 51mins (45mins to Victoria) quicker not just the 23mins quicker than before.

For this service the charge was £31.80 over the £18.60 on the classic services (2010 prices).

This to me is the rip-off of HS1.

Because of the length of time the classic services now take, I feel obliged to use the St Pancras service. (Presumably what South Eastern want!)

Even so, I have used the St Pancras service a number of times with advance tickets (if only South Eastern did advance tickets!) to go further afield in the country and been impressed otherwise.