HS1 supplements question

[jon0844]

It's £4.90 (see here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=380070&postcount=33)

If people think £4.90 is so inexpensive then good for them (considering this is a SURCHARGE ON TOP of the normal ticket - not the actual price, which would be great!). I wonder, then, why the trains are so empty and only well used when there's an easement due to problems on the 'old' line.

Or are they packed now people have realised that an extra £80 a month is a bargain. We are out of the recession now, so I guess £900 or so (I presume there'd be a bigger discount for an annual season) is nothing.

I certainly hope that there will be no upgrade payable soon. If they recognise Stratford International as a station within the zones - I might not need the nonsense combination of tickets are shown in the image either.

 

[jobbers]

I use it every day from Folkestone West to Stratford International. For the extra £900 a year it saves me 11 hours a week on the "Classic" timetable when taking into account the extra time I get at home.
The trains have ample leg room and are bright. They are not too crowded at the moment, and all this makes for a far more pleasant experience compared to the majority of "Classic" services on 375/9 or networker units.
A lot has been made of the train arriving to the wrong part of London for city workers, but it takes me half an hour to hook up with the service (either from StP or Strtford, with the difference being no extra tube fare at the latter) when I would have allowed 20 minutes to get to Cannon Street ( a 5 minute walk) in order to ensure I got a seat.
I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it - I appreciate not everyone can - and would never go back to the "Classic" routes. I think what is wrong, is that SER have made every Folkestone train to London all station stoppers - presumably to force people onto HS1.......

 

[Mintona]

It's £4.90 (see here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=380070&postcount=33)

That was before the fare changes in January. I am almost certain the prices I posted on the previous page are the correct fares, although I will double check it on Avantix tomorrow.

Edit: Southeastern Website:
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/cms/pages/view/325

 

[shinkansen1966]

Does anyone know how many people are actually using the new high speed south eastern train service into St Pancras?

Some of the services are better than their 'classic' counterparts. Some other services have questionable time savings. Either way, the cost of introducing the new high speed trains are being paid by passengers who use the lines through Kent. Witness the fare supplements, inflation busting fare rises and replacement of classic trains from Ashford with a high speed service instead.

It did cost billions to build high speed one. And someone has to pay for it. But some of the benefits are not financial measurable. There's the Kings Cross redevelopment which will bring increased property prices, economic regeneration at certain points along the line and additional capacity/seperation of classic and high speed service. And of course, it kicked started the Olympics and Stratford redevelopment.

 

[jon0844]

HS1 was surely built primarily for Eurostar and would surely have been built anyway?

The tunnel opened in 1994 and there's no way we could have continued with the UK side crawling along into Waterloo forever?

I can't understand why there is any need for a supplement on a new bit of railway line, which should have been funded by the Government/DfT as part of infrastructure that will presumably be owned by the Government or Network Rail, not SET.

Will passengers arriving at the new platform 1 (currently down as platform X) at King's Cross have to pay extra to alight there when it is built? Okay, silly example - the new track isn't very long - but you get my point?

What worries is me is the precedent set for future rail expansion. In effect, new railway lines will be like toll-roads. I get the InterCity example, where you pay for a different service to a regular commuter train, but HS1 isn't an Intercity service in that way.

 

[shinkansen1966]

"HS1 was surely built primarily for Eurostar and would surely have been built anyway?"
You may have to check this, but when Channel Tunnel was built, I think British law forbid public finances for a Eurostar high speed line. To get around this, domestic services where included in HS1 to allow some public involvement.

"I can't understand why there is any need for a supplement on a new bit of railway line"
Neither can I. Suspect, it's just a pure and simple revenue raiser, which DfT thought that the public would accept. And generally, more public money is being used to support our privatised railways. Which is why the goverment has pressed for inflation busting fare increases.

The patterns of service and fares on the South Eastern lines including HS1 are largely as a result of DfT guidance. Which is why I am wondering how many people are using HS1...

 

[jon0844]

I don't use it myself so can only go by a colleague who lives in Kent and will sometimes upgrade if he wakes up a bit late, or needs to get home early.

He is probably doing this about once a week now! The trains are almost empty, with the only exception being when trains were delayed on the old route in the snow - and the supplement was waived.

It's crazy if true that we potentially would have never got a high-speed line here for Eurostar. It was ridiculous enough that it took around 13 years to build/open the line after Eurostar started running. We can build a tunnel linking two countries, but not a bit of railway line (albeit with another couple of tunnels) to connect the tunnel to the destination/terminus.

People of Kent (and Essex) are still paying to cross the QE2 bridge/Dartford Tunnel after the Government totally copped out and allowed the continuance of the toll booths to extract money long after the bridge was 'paid for'. The Highways Agency should now have full control of the bridge and maintain it out of the money raised by the VED and so on. But no, it was extended supposedly to pay for local transport funding and other things (but my guess is most goes into central Government as a nice little earner).

I do wonder if HS2 will allow another hefty supplement to be imposed by the operator that will run faster trains to the north? TOCs will be desperate to see if they could ever impose supplements for using congested services in the peaks (a sort of super-peak fare). Where does it end?

 

[shinkansen1966]

Interesting comment from you about trains being almost empty. Wonder how long the press will start commenting about "High speed service to Kent a flop, trains running near empty."

If that's the case, perhaps it will only be a question when the supplement will be dropped.

As for HS2, well I can only guess that's years off. And when it ever does open, expect a 'premium' fare for a 'premium' product.

The railways are run with the TOCs and DfT always looking at ways to raise revenue. Public service... forget it.

 

[jon0844]

I expect that, given the service has officially run for only a couple of months, SET would simply say that most people are not yet fully aware of the service.

I'd go one stage further and say that their PR people will actually spin it to 'prove' that people aren't being forced to use it now there's the new timetable in place that has reduced or slowed the traditional services. They'll say that this gives more flexibility, choice and so on.. well, at least that's what I'd say if I was a PR!

I would say that ultimately the surcharge will be dropped as it's a nightmare (but possibly not until after the Olympics where that 7 minute journey to Stratford will be a massive money spinner because you'll pay both the supplement AND a single/return journey even if you have a Travelcard), especially when you can board one way and pay on the train, but at St Pancras you'll be refused access through the gates until you get the supplement - which can take time and make you miss the train, leaving you a 30 minute wait (which cancels out any saving you might have made).

I'd say those people paying the extra £900 a year are rather wealthy (first class season ticket holders pay no surcharge either) or work nearer to St Pancras and believe it's worth the extra money. Some may also pay for getting a guaranteed seat.

 

[OwlMan]

I would say that ultimately the surcharge will be dropped as it's a nightmare (but possibly not until after the Olympics where that 7 minute journey to Stratford will be a massive money spinner because you'll pay both the supplement AND a single/return journey even if you have a Travelcard),

If you buy a ticket from London Terminals to Stratford International it includes travel on HS1 so no supplement is payable.

The supplement is only a short term solution and now mainly apply to old season tickets within the South East* and from the South East* to London routed any permitted.
All tickets from South East* are now either routed "Route HS1" or "Route not HS1" so these supplements no longer apply to new tickets. (You should be able to excess a "Route not HS1" ticket as per normal excess rules when the supplements end)
All other tickets (To or from other destinations not in the South East*) are valid on HS1 if the route is a permitted route in the Routeing guide and the ticket is not marked "Not HS1"

Trvaelcards are not allowed on HS1 as they are specifically excluded in their validity.

*South East refers to Staions run by the TOC South East Trains not the geographical area.

Peter

 

[jon0844]

On that basis, hopefully the supplement will be dropped before the Olympics.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not justifying the disgusting fares, but surely the supplement is just a simple way of doing an excess?

The biggest scandal is the way that the non-HS1 fares were increased in price in order to pay for the HS1 services and then shortly after that the service was made slower. Someone should be locked up for that.

3 years ago the season ticket price from Folkestone to London Terminals was £3180. In a period of low inflation, this has increased to £3860 for a worse service, or £4628 for a decent service via HS1. The price should have decreased to around £2700 to be fair! Increasing the price would only happen in a country like the UK, where we are anti-rail and pro-car. It wouldn't happen in mainland Europe I'm sure.

 

[shinkansen1966]

the HS1 services...after that the service was made slower.

What happened ? At the moment, HS1 trains take 38 mins from St Pancras to Ashford?

When the DfT let out the Kent franchise to South Eastern Trains, they were allowed to increase regulated fares by (I think), RPI+3%. And they appeared to have taken full advantage of this inflation busting fare rise. After 2010, South Eastern are allowed to increase regulated fares by RPI+1%.

In 2005-2006, the DfT gave Southern Eastern trains £135 million to top the money which the TOC collects in ticket sales. Each year, that amount goes down, until the final year of the 8 year franchise, Southern Eastern actually have to hand over £11m to the DfT. So the financial thumbs screws are on.

Now what will happen during the Olympics in summer 2012? Where will the rolling stock come from to run the Javelin shuttle service to Stratford? Will this Javelin service be in addition to the regular HS1 domestic train service between St Pancras and Kent ?

 

[yorkie]

What happened ? At the moment, HS1 trains take 38 mins from St Pancras to Ashford?

Yes but you have to pay even more extra for that. I was making the point that the non-HS1 fares are higher to pay for HS1 and yet they are slower than the old trains. Yes the HS1 trains are faster, but that's an even higher premium.

In 1987 it took 1 hour to do Charing Cross - Ashford and vice-versa (xx55 from CHX and xx40 from AFK). Now it takes 1 hour 20. So it's 22 minutes quicker to a less attractive part of London at a vastly inflated price (plus you have to pay even more to use the tube) or 20 minutes slower at a still inflated price!

That is scandalous and the people responsible should be dealt with appropriately, but sadly the general public in this country just allow the fat cats to walk all over them and treat them like dirt.

You will struggle to get the journey from AFK to CHX down to 1 hour today as to manage that you have only 22 minutes to get down the escalators at STP, wait for a Victoria train, walk across the platform at Oxford Circus and wait for a Bakerloo train, and then escalators again. Doable on a good day, but not comfortable, and at additional cost of the tube journey on top of the "supplement"/inflated HS1 fare which in itself is on top of the inflated non-HS1 fare.

In 2005-2006, the DfT gave Southern Eastern trains £135 million to top the money which the TOC collects in ticket sales. Each year, that amount goes down, until the final year of the 8 year franchise, Southern Eastern actually have to hand over £11m to the DfT. So the financial thumbs screws are on.

That won't happen. In the same way it didn't happen with Virgin, GNER, NXEC, FGW..... it only happens in the dreams of overpaid DfT fat cats. Not in reality. The DfT have a bizarre view of reality.

 

[Broken Viking]

What happened ? At the moment, HS1 trains take 38 mins from St Pancras to Ashford?

Thirty-eight minutes to get from St. Pancras to Ashford on a "High-speed" train? I'm sorry...But even adopting a perfectly reasonable viewpoint for once, there is no way that sixty miles in 40 mins - Working out to a pitiful rough average of 94.73mph - Can be considered a "high-speed" service. SWT's Dessies go at least 5.50mph faster than that, and there isn't a suppliment to use those!

If SET's "High-Speed" services are as pants as that, I may well neglect my planned HS1 away-day after all. A return to Glasgow on a VT Pendo is 1.45x as fast, and much more enjoyable IMO!

Yes but you have to pay even more extra for that. I was making the point that the non-HS1 fares are higher to pay for HS1 and yet they are slower than the old trains. Yes the HS1 trains are faster, but that's an even higher premium.

I wasn't aware that SouthEastern had done this...And if it can be proven that SouthEastern are ripping customers off in that manner (As several have already done with prior timetable comparisons) isn't there any way in consumer law that they can be bought to account for such unfair trading?

As it is: If I was one of the bods who delt with breaches of the Trade descriptions Act, I would've had an injunction served against SET to prevent them using the expression "high speed" in their SEHS services as soon as Id've figured out the average speed of such a "high speed" train as stated above.

As a final observation: I note with interest that SouthEastern have neglected to respond to the website enquiry that I sent them a while back. Make of that what ye will, but I would suspect that they may not be nearly as helpful in customer service terms as they try and make out on their website and promotional material... :roll:

 

[shinkansen1966]

IMO, construction of HS1 was a political contrivance. When the Channel Tunnel was built, Thatcher objected to any public money to support the scheme including what turned out to be HS1. To make HS1 political possible, a domestic service and East London/North Kent regeneration was included to make it attractive to HM Treasury.

So now you have an expensive railway, requiring new suitable high speed domestic rolling stock. To 'encourage' passengers onto the domestic SET high service, the classic Ashford train service has partly replaced with high speed one. And a supplement/higher fares were allowed to bring more revenue.

As Yorkie pointed out, they used to be a perfectly good Charing Cross to Ashford service taking under an hour. Over time, stops were added and the timetable padded out. And just to make the new SET high speed service more appealing, in the DfT press releases, time savings were compared the slowest regular London-Ashford classis service. Now we appear to have an underused high speed service with some pretty steep fares.

Neverthless, the service should succeed. There's never been a faster connection between London and Ashford, though the benefit is somewhat watered down, when you thrown in cross London tube connections. To stand a chance of making the service work for the public, the 'high speed' and higher fares aspect of the services needs to be dropped. For passengers at Ashford, that would mean a straight of choice of travelling to Charing Cross or St Pancras. You are offered the same brand and the same fare. The only difference being rolling stock and travel times.

And more should be made of connections between Kent trains arriving into St Pancras and onward connections to the East Midlands. In my uni days, I travelled between Canterbury and Sheffield, a journey of approx 5 hrs with the trip across central London. The same trip now takes 3.5 hrs.

It's another instance of a distance DfT with beaucratic civil servants attempting to best guess what's good for the public. For all it faults, British Rail gaves us two indentifiable products: InterCity and Network South East.

Whoever wins the next election, the politicans will muddle through with the railways. They'll spend as little as possible on the network. There'll be an ever changing set of transport ministers. And we will limp on with a fragmented network using private transport companies operating franchises where there's constant pressure to squeeze every last drop of money out of the fare paying public.

 

[Mintona]

I think that when the high speed services were brought in, the price to use them should have been the old normal ticket price, and a new lower fare introduced for the Mainline and Metro services. Since then there has been a price increase of course. Obviously not the way it was done, as I suspect the company would lose too much revenue that way.

 

[jon0844]

There should be no premium at all. Yes, it's a nice fancy 'new' track and a shiny new train - but FCC isn't charging people more to go on the new 377/5s or for people to alight at St Pancras instead of the old King's Cross Thameslink station.

People should have the choice of where they want to go. Not everyone would automatically use HS1 because it's 'faster' (arguable given the average speed of around 95mph!) because St Pancras isn't necessarily going to be better for them. For others, St Pancras will be perfect for their onward connection.

Instead, SET seems to be trying to force people to go into St Pancras by slowing and reducing the frequency of the other trains. The surcharge is just a further insult.

 

[Mintona]

FWIW, I mostly agree with you. I am only really stating the facts.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail again!
Just found the following response from South Eastern in my inbox. On the face of things, it looks like HS1 services are not classed as "special" ones (Unlike HEX services) for the purposes of ticketing...At least not at the moment! hock:

Thank you for your website comment dated 24 January.

In answer to your questions:
If you purchased a supplement ticket and experienced delays, our Passenger Charter will apply. Our Passenger’s Charter states how we will compensate ticket holders for delays. Passengers who hold daily and weekly tickets that are delayed by 30 minutes will receive a refund of 50% of the fare, for the portion of the journey affected.
Such compensation is issued in the form of National Rail Travel Vouchers, which are valid for 12 months and can be used towards any UK rail purchase. Passengers who hold daily and weekly tickets that are delayed by one hour or more will receive a refund of 100% of the fare, for the portion of the journey affected.

As far as I'm aware you can use an All-Line Rover ticket on the high speed with no supplement required, however this is due to be reviewed in March.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Yours sincerely
Kelly Werren
. . Customer Services
. . Southeastern

* - Punctuation and line spacing edited for readability.

 

[jon0844]

Do they really think that this line is made of gold or something? I'm sure that this supplement will increase each year in line with RPI+1% just to add insult to injury.

God, when HS2 is built, everyone is going to have to step down and kiss the ballast before boarding.