HS1 supplements question

[Fly-Catchers]

Hi
Are the supplements shown on the SE web site http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/cms/pages/view/325 only for season ticket holders?
The way it is worded " If you have a ticket to London Terminals, a Travelcard ticket or you hold a Season ticket, you can upgrade to high speed services by paying a supplement in addition to your current ticket." makes it sound as if it should apply to all tickets to London.

But the cheapest I could get through their site was £21 for an Off Peak return using a South East rail card. Using my rail card and buying an mainline off peak return to Charing Cross costs £12.30 from Walmer. So was hoping I could add a £4.40 supplement to it to convert it to HS1. Is that possible?

cheers

bill

 

[clagmonster]

I've just had a look at this, and the £12.30 super cheap day return appears to be specifically to Charing Cross, and not London Terminals as would normally be the case. Therefore the ticket is not valid to St Pancras, with or without the supplement. Had it have been a ticket to London Terminals, then yes you would have been able to upgrade.
The cheapest fare via the High Speed line to St Pancras would be a cheap day return at £18.10.

 

[A60K]

I've just had a look at this, and the £12.30 super cheap day return appears to be specifically to Charing Cross, and not London Terminals as would normally be the case. Therefore the ticket is not valid to St Pancras, with or without the supplement. Had it have been a ticket to London Terminals, then yes you would have been able to upgrade.
The cheapest fare via the High Speed line to St Pancras would be a cheap day return at £18.10.

Although, depending on your origin, it's worth checking fares *beyond* London (even if you're only going to London) - sometimes these can be Any Permitted route, but priced at non-HS1 rates!

 

[Fly-Catchers]

I've just had a look at this, and the £12.30 super cheap day return appears to be specifically to Charing Cross, and not London Terminals as would normally be the case. Therefore the ticket is not valid to St Pancras, with or without the supplement. Had it have been a ticket to London Terminals, then yes you would have been able to upgrade.
The cheapest fare via the High Speed line to St Pancras would be a cheap day return at £18.10.

Thanks for your reply.
Where did you find the cheap day return at £18.10? As using both SE trains timetable & National Rail still give me £21 as the cheapest option from Walmer & indeed Dover where the service starts from.

bill

 

[Broken Viking]

Although, depending on your origin, it's worth checking fares *beyond* London (even if you're only going to London) - sometimes these can be Any Permitted route, but priced at non-HS1 rates!

I dunno if that'd work though, I see this on the South Eastern page linked above:

Tickets to or from London which display the 'Any Permitted' route do not entitle you to travel on high speed services.

Although whether that's meaning Any Permitted does not include HS1 in any way or just Any Permitted does not include HS1, but suppliments may be purchased I can't immediateley tell as I'm in a rush.

Incidentally; As there's a suppliment for high-speed, what would be my consumer rights with regard to the suppliment if I took a South Eastern "HST" and found that it wasn't fast enough for my liking?

 

[yorkie]

'Although whether that's meaning Any Permitted does not include HS1 in any way or just Any Permitted does not include HS1, but suppliments may be purchased I can't immediateley tell as I'm in a rush.'

It's irrelevant. If it says Any permitted then it is permitted if HS1 is on the maps. It is just that for fares to London they are routed HS1 or Not HS1. So you can ignore that statements.

 

[Broken Viking]

It's irrelevant. If it says Any permitted then it is permitted if HS1 is on the maps. It is just that for fares to London they are routed HS1 or Not HS1. So you can ignore that statements.

So - Assuming that I understand ye correctly - Ticket validity on South Eastern "high-speed" (SEHS) services is determined entirely by the rules in the NRRG?
That said though; Seeing that SEHS services are now fully available, I tried some NFM lookups for various HS runs last night (STP --> BSR, mainly) and every ticket I got back was routed Not valid on HS1...Which isn't much use to me, given that HS1 is what I want to travel on! hock:

Anyhow...Going back to SEHS suppliments, here's a query that I just submitted via South Eastern's online contact form:

Dear SouthEastern,
I observed on your website yesterday that travel on your high-speed services (HSS) is subject to a supplimentary fare being payable on top of the cost of a normal NR ticket.
As someone who has a strong interest in high-speed rail, I am hoping to try out your HSS at some point in the near future.

However, I would like to know what would happen in the event that I purchase an HSS suppliment, and then my subsequent HSS journey(s) prove unsatisfactory - I.E. If delays should cause my HSS workings to take as long as a normal mainline service.
In such an event, would a refund of the supplimentary fare (Or suppliments for a future service) be made available?

Also, I would like to take this opportunity to enquire about how the suppliments affect travel on an All-Line Rover ticket? I am hoping to use an ALR at some later point, and would like to know what suppliments (If any) would be payable for journeys on such a ticket?

I'll post the response to those questions here if South Eastern respond to my enquiry.

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[Edvid]

In place of STP, try London Terminals (code 1072) instead, you'll get both routeings.

I've attached screenshots of the relevant prices, revealing that prices to/from STP/1072 differ for the same non-HS1 tickets. This is a result of the definition of London Terminals as far as the core Thameslink stations are concerned - STP is a LT from the north, City Thameslink/London Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle are LTs from the south, and Farringdon is not a LT at all.

In the ticketing context, STP also exists as a standalone station to allow passengers to get there via Farringdon, hence why there is only a HS1 routeing for 1072 and not STP. (For some stations the entire core is covered by the station group London Thameslink, but that's another story...)

 

[yorkie]

So - Assuming that I understand ye correctly - Ticket validity on South Eastern "high-speed" (SEHS) services is determined entirely by the rules in the NRRG?

Well, no. Ticket validity is determined by the NCoC. This line isn't exempt from NCoC. NCoC says that the RG is used to determine permitted routes, and the times you can travel are determined by the restriction code associated with the ticket held.

That said though; Seeing that SEHS services are now fully available, I tried some NFM lookups for various HS runs last night (STP --> BSR, mainly) and every ticket I got back was routed Not valid on HS1...Which isn't much use to me, given that HS1 is what I want to travel on! hock:

If you look up fares specifically from STP it will show fares that are specifically routed into STP, which are for use on the Thameslink core section between London Bridge at St Pancras. It's confusing. But use London Terminals and it will show the fares you want.

Anyhow...Going back to SEHS suppliments, here's a query that I just submitted via South Eastern's online contact form: I'll post the response to those questions here if South Eastern respond to my enquiry.

Farewell...
>> Death <<

I observed on your website yesterday that travel on your high-speed services (HSS) is subject to a supplimentary fare being payable on top of the cost of a normal NR ticket.

This is not true at all. If a normal NR ticket is valid on HS1 then they cannot charge a supplement.

Also, I would like to take this opportunity to enquire about how the suppliments affect travel on an All-Line Rover ticket? I am hoping to use an ALR at some later point, and would like to know what suppliments (If any) would be payable for journeys on such a ticket?

All line rover is "valid on all lines".

 

[jon0844]

Except Heathrow Express - and this was the argument from the member of on-train staff when I went on a 395 in the preview phase. She said (correctly or not, but it's what she said) that the HS1 train was not part of the normal agreement 'just like Heathrow Express'. That's apparently why my Travelcard with extension (and supplement) was not valid.

I was given an excess ticket from Z6 back to St Pancras (with Gold Card discount), while the supplement would appear to be a fixed cost whether you go one stop, say St Pancras Int to Stratford, or all the way to Ashford International.

I keep saying it - I can't see how they can charge this supplement forever. It causes so many problems. Nice trains, a teeny weeny bit faster than some other lines, but to most commuters it's a nondescript plastic train that costs them an extra £80 a month - albeit with a VERY good chance of getting a seat because hardly anyone uses it yet.

Another problem: A colleague at work sometimes decides to go home on HS1 because he wants to get home faster than normal.

Off he goes to St Pancras and his train leaves in a few minutes. He can't get the train because he hasn't paid the supplement though! The gateline staff say you cannot board without the supplement, as your normal SET season ticket won't operate the gate. The same doesn't apply the other way around.

You therefore need to go back and buy a supplement from a machine or queue up, and possibly wait another 30 minutes, even though you could pay for the supplement on the train! The gateline staff won't sell the supplements either.

Is it really that difficult to let people on with an otherwise valid ticket, once the supplement is paid?

 

[Failed Unit]

I know this has been covered many times, but if you are going a Journey such as London

London St Pancras - Faversham (1h06)
London Cannon Street - Faverhsam (1h10) on 1646 train
London Victoria - Faversham (1h07) - Typical journey time in May 2009 timetable
London Victoria - Faversham (1h17) - Typical journey time in Dec 2009 timetable

So if I lived in Faversham I would be pretty miffed to have to pay a supplement to save 1 minute on the previous journey time. If my ultimate destination was say Oxford Circus you would be paying more for the pleasure of train that doesn't even have the ability to buy a drink onboard! I would be fuming!

Isn't the SET part of St Pancras awful compared to the rest of the station, bit of an afterthough.

As for saying money, always look up fares like Ashford - Finsbury Park, it is valid without a supplement as it is the most direct route. May save you enough to buy your travel card separately.

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks for your reply.
Where did you find the cheap day return at £18.10? As using both SE trains timetable & National Rail still give me £21 as the cheapest option from Walmer & indeed Dover where the service starts from.

bill

Appologies, I seem to have got muddled up reading Avantix. The cheap day return is indeed £21.

 

[jon0844]

It's bad enough that they've added on a supplement, but the reduction in previous services (and the slowing down of such services) to try and force people to pay for HS1 is out of order.

Yes, some people will really benefit from St Pancras over Victoria, just as I'm sure people using the ECML/MML might love it if a new line was built that took them into Victoria - but surely you give people the freedom to choose?

Until SET switches the HS1 service over to something more like an InterCity service, with first class, Wi-Fi, onboard catering, a restaurant coach or something, it will always be a regular suburban railway service like any other.

It may use the HS1 line, but it doesn't do 190mph. The only proper high-speed service is Eurostar. Otherwise, why can't we call the ECML and WCML high speed lines? They're almost as fast as the SET service using lines that are significantly older.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's bad enough that they've added on a supplement, but the reduction in previous services (and the slowing down of such services) to try and force people to pay for HS1 is out of order.

Yes, some people will really benefit from St Pancras over Victoria, just as I'm sure people using the ECML/MML might love it if a new line was built that took them into Victoria - but surely you give people the freedom to choose?

Until SET switches the HS1 service over to something more like an InterCity service, with first class, Wi-Fi, onboard catering, a restaurant coach or something, it will always be a regular suburban railway service like any other.

It may use the HS1 line, but it doesn't do 190mph. The only proper high-speed service is Eurostar. Otherwise, why can't we call the ECML and WCML high speed lines? They're almost as fast as the SET service using lines that are significantly older.

I must admit, as we have discussed before the difference between a 395 and a 375 isn't as great as the difference between a 365 and a mk4. The 395 is just a commutor train simple as, a fast one maybe. The classic route retains the trolley service. Apart from a slightly faster journey (a whole minute on the classic route) your are not getting much for your premium even if you are a winner (like me that lives North of London). Saying that I often travel to Canterbury and where I say is in walking distance to the East station, so what I gain in getting to Canterbury West is lost by a long walk to East. But hey can't have my cake and eat it. Shame the service to East has been slowed down to make it less attractive.

 

[yorkie]

Shame the service to East has been slowed down to make it less attractive.

Exactly, but they raised the price of the non-HS1 fares. That sort of nonsense would not happen in any other country I bet! We really shouldn't stand for it.

 

[jon0844]

Not even just this year when it officially opened either. SET season ticket holders were paying a surcharge for their 'Not HS1' seasons for a year or maybe even two!

While almost all fares remained the same, or went down, this year - SET users still had a well above inflation increase.

 

[Fly-Catchers]

Well I gave the HS1 service a go (at £21) and quite impressed by it on the whole. Though you still need to use the ordinary train service from Walmer to Ashford Int before you board the HS1
And of course even the HS1 to Dover (which does not connect with the Walmer service) can only travel at 90 rather than 140 mph once it leaves Ashford to Dover. So not quite so high speed!! What is the typical speed of a normal train? And I wonder why the HS1 stops at Folkestone West as well as Folkestone Central? Its hardly an international station!!

bill

 

[jon0844]

The train itself is very nice. Simple, comfortable, clean and bright. The staff seem happy to be there.

When SET had problems on the 'old' route and let people on HS1 for free, my work colleague said it was packed and suddenly not quite so nice. But, when he chooses to pay the supplement he can sit anywhere.

I wonder if they're trying to keep the service exclusive so the trains aren't battered come 2012?

 

[Mojo]

I've just discovered that if you're travelling at peak times it's cheaper to buy to Strood if travelling London to Ebbsfleet. Any other ways of getting St Pancras to Ebbsfleet down?

 

[Mintona]

Well I gave the HS1 service a go (at £21) and quite impressed by it on the whole. Though you still need to use the ordinary train service from Walmer to Ashford Int before you board the HS1
And of course even the HS1 to Dover (which does not connect with the Walmer service) can only travel at 90 rather than 140 mph once it leaves Ashford to Dover. So not quite so high speed!! What is the typical speed of a normal train? And I wonder why the HS1 stops at Folkestone West as well as Folkestone Central? Its hardly an international station!!

bill

Mainline trains travel at the same speed as high speed trains between Dover/Ramsgate and Ashford.

Calls at Folkestone West because there is more car parking there for people driving to the station. I believe that there is minimal parking at Folkestone Central.

 

[barrykas]

I travelled on Highspeed to Ashford recently, returning to Stratford, and I wasn't overly impressed.

The ride quality, particularly through the London Tunnels, is atrocious for new trains and a relatively new line, with a lot of evidence of lateral hunting over the bogies, and for what you're paying, the train interior isn't all that different from any other recent EMU...albeit one that does 140mph.

The worst part of my HS1 "experience", however, was Stratford International, where the shuttle bus to Stratford Regional departed just as the passengers from my train were passing through the booking hall, leaving us waiting 15 minutes for the next one!

The bus dumps you adjacent to Platform 11 at Stratford Regional, which presently only has stairs to the central subway, as the Eastern subway hasn't reopened yet. In addition, there's a distinct lack of Oyster validators on Platforms 9 to 12, so if you're travelling onwards to Liverpool Street on Oyster PAYG and the next train is leaving from Platform 9 (which it was when I went, though I have a Travelcard on my Oyster), you have to head to Platforms 7 and 8 to touch in, then back to Platform 9, hoping you don't miss your train in the intervening period.

Hopefully the situation will be resolved with the opening of the DLR extension to Stratford International, but we'll have to wait and see.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[mallard]

As I understand it, there are three distinct periods of time with which different ticketing rules apply/applied to HS1 services, these are:

Prior the Dec 13th 2009:
All passengers required supplements, HS1 was not in the RG so it was a special route "like Heathrow Express".

Dec 13th 2009 - 1st Jan 2010:
The full HS1 timetable was running, but the new NFM was not in effect, so HS1 was still not in the RG. "Plus High Speed" tickets or supplements were required. "Any Permitted" tickets to London were not accepted, but they were for destinations beyond London. This was the reason for the statement on the website.

After 2nd Jan 2010 (NOW):
"Any Permitted", "TOC &Connections", etc. are all valid on HS1. Tickets to London from the south east are routed either "Not HS1" or "Plus High Speed" to avoid confusion. Basically, only "Not HS1" tickets are invalid on HS1.

I have used HS1 several times, most recently on Sat 9th Jan with a "VWC &Connections" advance ticket. This was passed by both the ticket inspector on board and the gates at St. Pancras. SET were running a near-normal service that day, despite the snow and there were no special easements in effect.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail all!
At present, I havn't had any response from South Eastern in response to my enquiry the other day, but in my experience it can take customer service centres a while to respond to online enquiries. If they get back to me though, I'll echo it in a later post. 8)

In place of STP, try London Terminals (code 1072) instead, you'll get both routeings.

Ahh...Cheers for that Edvid! I'll give that a go as soon as I've got NFM05 installed on the machine that I'm currently using!
(And cheers also to others for pointing out that - In using "STP" for my queries - I was unwittingly telling Avantix that I wanted to travel from the Thameslink platforms! )

And of course even the HS1 to Dover (which does not connect with the Walmer service) can only travel at 90 rather than 140 mph once it leaves Ashford to Dover. So not quite so high speed!!

Mainline trains travel at the same speed as high speed trains between Dover/Ramsgate and Ashford.

As I'm hoping to take a bash on a few SEHS services primarily to experience HS1 as best as possible - Without having to take a Eurostar trip - Can I ask which route I'd most likely be able to enjoy full "high" speed running on?

Looking at SETs interactive route map, there appears to be an SEHS service to Broadstairs which looks to show the whole route as a high-speed service - Despite it going off HS1 at Ashford and passing up through Canterbury. Do the SEHS services still manage higher speeds from mainline stock whilst away from HS1, or do they have to follow the same set of speed limits?

The main purpose of this outing would be to achieve as much high-speed running as possible, so I'm thinking that Folkestone/Dover might be a better destination to look to as it'd give me full HS1 coverage right up to the Chunnel. 8)

Incidentally, do the SEHS services hit the same speed as Eurostar whilst using HS1...Or do they have SWT's annoying habit of leaving the parking brake on throughout the journey?
What I mean by that is; The line between Clapham and Basingstoke is pretty straight for an SR line, and by my reckoning even non-tilting stock could safely manage 300mph over that stretch. Yet SWT make the silly decision to keep everything limited to a pitiful 90mph, which is a real waste of the BSML's potential in my book... ad:

Finally - And it's a bit of a crazy question, I admit - But given my yearning for fast running, is there any kind of Day Rover or Travelcard that would be valid for a whole day of HS1 use between St. Pancras and Folkestone, possibly with the necessary suppliment? If I could get a whole day's free reign over the length of HS1 and the service is everything that SET's website makes it out to be, I could see it being a most enjoyable and mileage-heavy day out if I could make the first train out of London!

 

[Fly-Catchers]

I agree with Barry that the train was not as smooth as expected. And apart from the cleaner newer feel inside, the only real difference was the addition of a cup holder to the drop down tray! But after so many years of slam door service I it endured in the not so distant past, still felt like luxury!

I have read that even on the HS1 line it still mainly travels at 125mph- but is permitted to go to 140mph if running behind. Not sure if that is true or not. But while there were several occasions where you could feel the acceleration, it did tend to slow down a bit later. And as the stated journey time from Dover to Ashford is only slightly faster than the "classic" service, would imagine it does travel at a very similar speed. Particulary as the ordinary service stops at two other stations. So would think that travelling from Ashford to Broadstairs would be no different.

Ironically on my journey home the HS1 developed a "small fault" where it was not able to continue its service beyond Ashford! So while I continued my journey by the mainline service once at Ashford as expected, all the remaining passengers were left on the platform waiting for a replacement HS1 train!

For me the main bonus of this service is the ability to have a last train home at 22.42 rather the 22.10 (or 22.00 as it used to be) from London.

bill

 

[Broken Viking]

I have read that even on the HS1 line it still mainly travels at 125mph- but is permitted to go to 140mph if running behind...

To be honest, I would've expected it to run at the full 140mph throughout...Especially as it's called a "high-speed" service. As a "normal" IC-225 is also rated for 140mph, I'd argue that the use of the phrase "high-speed" for anything not capable of at least 175mph might constitute a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act. hock:

.oO(And that's a point...Isn't the speed limit for HS1 supposed to be somewhere around the 230mph mark? )

Not sure if that is true or not. But while there were several occasions where you could feel the acceleration, it did tend to slow down a bit later. And as the stated journey time from Dover to Ashford is only slightly faster than the "classic" service, would imagine it does travel at a very similar speed.

Sounds to me like yet another chronic waste of new rolling stock, then...If those things are capable of 140+mph, then 140+mph is what they ought to be doing, IMO!

Actually, I've had an idea for how to time and plot-out HS1 (And probabally other rail routes) accurateley and I may well do this when I do my HS1 run...But to help me a little, I'll need to know if a GPS unit will work on-board an SEHS service.

A brief request to any regular HS1 users:
If ye have any kind of GPS device available (Preferably a proper Garmin job, but a satnav with GPS display or an iPhone 3G should be adequete for the test) could ye possibly use it to find thy location a few times during an HS1 journey and post the outcome here?
I'm mainly interested to see if a device can still receive and locate signals from GPS satellites from inside the train, even with that bit of 25kV wire overhead.
Many thanks in advance to anyone who does! 8)

 

[jon0844]

HS1 doesn't stand for high-speed though, it means Hefty Surcharge.

 

[Broken Viking]

HS1 doesn't stand for high-speed though, it means Hefty Surcharge.

 

[Mintona]

Southeastern High Speed trains run at "only" 140mph between London and Ashford only. After Ashford, heading towards Dover or Ramsgate/Margate they are limited to the same speed as Mainline trains as they are using the same tracks.

It was decided during planning that the speed limit would be 140mph. This is due to the fact a lower top speed means higher gearing and better acceleration. In a race between a 373 and a 395 from London to Ashford stopping at Stratford and Ebbsfleet (as most high speed trains do) a 373 would win by 1 minute. It was therefore deemed worthless to have a higher top speed as the saving would be lost on slow acceleration.

As I said before, you won't get a domestic train on HS1 beyond Ashford. They don't rejoin the high speed line to continue on down to Folkestone and Dover. And as far as I am aware there is no daily rover ticket which will allow you unlimited travel on high speed for the day.

Finally, the surchage isn't that hefty. The media have made it out to be much more expensive than it is. And thousands of people a day think it is worth it for the extra time in bed/with family.

 

[jon0844]

It's £4.60 (or £4.90) for a return isn't it?

Whether the media has made it out to be more than that or not, that's what I paid - and I think that's quite a lot for a couple of extra minutes in bed or with the family!!!

Q: How much has the media made it out to be?

 

[Mintona]

It's £4.60 (or £4.90) for a return isn't it?

Whether the media has made it out to be more than that or not, that's what I paid - and I think that's quite a lot for a couple of extra minutes in bed or with the family!!!

Q: How much has the media made it out to be?

I can't say for sure. I find a lot of people dread me telling them they need to be pay an upgrade to travel on high speed and then are very surprised and happy that it is so inexpensive.

I believe that it is £4.40 for a return (off-peak), £4.50 for a single (anytime) and £8.20 for a return (anytime) on the Ashford lines.

I hope that one day there will be no upgrade to use high speed...