How would you run a bus company??

[AaronR]

Jus thought I would see what suggestions and comments you lovely people have, I was in a conversation with my mum and sister last night about my local operator Ipswich Buses, and how they are putting fares up again, while the service seems to get worse, and the buses on some routes run round empty or with just OAP's on. We all agreed that most bus operators seem to forget that they are selling a service, much like a shop sells goods or a car dealer sells cars, and that they seem to just think that if they run a bus on a route, then the "customers" will turn up in their droves. Here in Suffolk it is especially bad, there are operators running routes but offer no advertising at all bar the Suffolk county council website, yet they then reduce the service and raise fares due to low usage. It's like a clothes shop suffering from low sales yet they don't actually advertise they exist and their response is to just raise all their prices! Same logic in the car dealer idea. This just wouldn't happen would it? So why do bus operators seem to think this way? Of course, this isn't across the country. The likes of Transdev Blazefield, Trentbarton, reading buses etc all realising that what they are trying to sell is a product. It really annoys me when another operator tries to compete, only for the original operator to then up their game, like its "their patch" playing bus wars but still not actually trying to sell their service by making them "better".

Surely, as highlighted by the discount retailers, lowering prices and offering a simple way of giving people what they want seems to work!

What do you think?

 

[GusB]

I'm speaking as someone who has no experience in the operating side of the industry; only that of transport enthusiast and very occasional passenger.

The last time I travelled by bus was on Christmas Eve. My local bus service is Stagecoach Bluebird's 32 from Elgin and on the day it did what it says on the tin. It turned up and arrived on time in both directions, the vehicle was a presentable E200 and the driver was polite and friendly. I already knew the times, but both bus stops displayed up-to-date timetable information. They got the basics right as far as I'm concerned, but in this day and age is that enough?

Information about fares and seasonal times was readily available on their website. I anticipated there may be some delays caused by traffic congestion, so I switched on mobile alerts from their Twitter feed. While there were no issues on my route, there appeared to be a few problems in the larger population centres of Aberdeen and Inverness, and their Twitter team seemed to be doing a good job of keeping people informed.

How would I run a bus company? I'd certainly try to follow the example above, but I think we all know it's not quite that simple. A company the size of Stagecoach certainly has the resources to deliver a great service. They ticked all the boxes during my own recent experience, but hearing from others who use the service more regularly, this is not always the case; my mum has certainly complained about buses running
so late that she eventually decided to abandon her journey completely.

I'm fairly lucky in that I have a fairly reasonable hourly daytime service. Evening and Sunday services had been subsidised since the mid 80s, and switched to minibus operation just before privatisation. A few years ago they were cut completely due to lack of local authority funding, re-instated, then cut again. There used to be demand from the "Bingo Wifies" returning home in the evenings, but that dropped off fairly sharply. There were also people who relied on the service to get home from work in the evenings, but had to move home because they didn't know what the next round of council cuts would bring.

There's also the issue of evening services being run by an operator which doesn't run the daytime services. What about those with weekly/season tickets? I had personal experience of this a few years back when Highland Scottish successfully tendered for our evening journeys (running double-deckers light from Nairn to Elgin...)

It's the whole chicken-and-egg thing. People won't use a service if they can't rely on it, and the operators won't provide a service that people don't use. Even if it is a service that's packed out with pensioners, the operator makes much less than if they were full-fare paying passengers.

The OP's question raises many others, and I feel there is no simple answer. The introduction of competition seems to have worked in areas where there's a pie that allows more than one operator to gain a reasonably-sized slice. There you can use features like free wi-fi and "leather" seats to differentiate your business from that of your rivals, but in small-pie areas, the challenge is to get enough bums on seats to make it viable for one company. This, to my mind, is where the whole de-regulation and privatisation thing has fallen flat on its face.

 

[daikilo]

I think it very much depends on the type of company e.g. a large group, a regional operator or an independent and also the type of traffic e.g. a TfL (or other) competitive franchise, an unprotected competitive service operator or say schools contracts.

However you are set up, and whatever your product is, meeting rules and regulations must be a prime concern and that means keeping the TCs happy with the right processes, the right skills and the appropriate financial standing.

And whilst you're doing all that, if you are unprotected, you also need to worry about finding and retaining your revenue stream.

 

[AaronR]

I just think that there needs to be more forward and creative thinking to bus operations, more needs to be done to attract new users and the next generation of users. This may be through branding of routes, the way social media is used as well as the buses themselves. Many operators still don't seem to grasp that most people these days, especially the younger gen, are glued to Facebook/Twitter/snapchat etc so why not use them to their advantage? Ipswich buses for instance has not updated their Facebook page since October!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just think that there needs to be more forward and creative thinking to bus operations, more needs to be done to attract new users and the next generation of users. This may be through branding of routes, the way social media is used as well as the buses themselves. Many operators still don't seem to grasp that most people these days, especially the younger gen, are glued to Facebook/Twitter/snapchat etc so why not use them to their advantage? Ipswich buses for instance has not updated their Facebook page since October!!!

I agree. Many bus companies seem to spend their time competing over the minority of passengers they can poach from another bus company - they need to seriously look at what they need to do to attract the huge number of people from their cars.

 

[SWTH]

I agree. Many bus companies seem to spend their time competing over the minority of passengers they can poach from another bus company - they need to seriously look at what they need to do to attract the huge number of people from their cars.

In rural areas, chances are that nothing can be done, which is why they don't bother. Outside of cities and towns buses just aren't a practical answer to personal transport.

Take Cornwall for instance. If I had wanted to get to where I worked 3 years ago from the house I had (a distance of 8 miles), it would take around 2.5-3 hours on a bus. Many people are in similar positions, but because their circumstances are all slightly different there's no way a service could be provided that would answer their needs.

The problem is this: you could make a rural peak time service free, with leather reclining armchairs, wifi, and a hostess serving you complimentary hot food and drink. But if it takes forever to get anywhere (and it will, because the intended customers are all in small numbers in a fair number of villages), your target of car drivers who drive because of time constraints will stay in their cars.

A bus simply takes too much time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In rural areas, chances are that nothing can be done, which is why they don't bother. Outside of cities and towns buses just aren't a practical answer to personal transport.

Mostly not, though there will be some cases (primarily rural locations on through routes between cities) where they are. But I was referring more to city buses and regional buses, where despite the huge potential market often no effort is made at all to do anything other than cut fares by 10p to be cheaper than the other bus company.

Trent Barton and the likes take the right line here in my view - make the product good, and consistently so, and more people will switch. Attention to detail is everything.

I notice this every time I travel NatEx, near enough. The coaches are pretty high quality these days (give or take that the seats are too narrow - I do wish they would offer the opportunity to book and guarantee two adjacent seats[1] for comfort at a higher price) but often attention to detail suffers, often with staff appearance (e.g. ill-fitting uniforms) and/or attitude.

[1] I recognise why they don't do seat selection because it would cause issues when they substitute coaches, but they *could* subject to availability allow booking of pairs of seats, either with a seat free or sitting next to a companion, as all coaches they are likely to use have seats in pairs.

 

[TC60054]

but often attention to detail suffers, often with staff appearance (e.g. ill-fitting uniforms) and/or attitude.

This is only through the tendering system that National Express uses for their routes, there are large amounts of different operators, all with different uniforms, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is only through the tendering system that National Express uses for their routes, there are large amounts of different operators, all with different uniforms, etc.

No excuse for attitude, appearance etc.


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[Mr Manager]

MMMMMM You have picked my favourite subject in Ipswich Buses.All i will say is it is council owned and council ruined. Jeremy Cooper was not the right choice to succeed Malcolm Robson. as now proved by him resigning.

Ipswich is a town where bus users are plentiful. take the route 8/13 9 min headways ?? and a good passenger count on all Buses. the problem lays in when Malcolm Asked for money for new buses in 2013 and was turned down and had to make do with 2nd hand purchases which have cost a fortune in repairs and maintenance to which Malcolm strongly objected to and presented a case for new Buses.(The Versas prove this point) IBL suffered with the reduction in the Encts revenue which he was promised by the council would not be reduced. Malcolm set his budgets accordingly only to have the Encts reduced greatly and by far more than expected. Also all md's of Ibl become a director so as to have a seat on the board to help with matters from the council. And this council has vowed whilst labour are at the helm never to sell Ibl also ?. yet continue to ignore the people who know how to run buses. hence although Ill heath did not help Malcolm Robson certainly did.

 

[SWTH]

No excuse for attitude, appearance etc.


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I beg to differ. When you've worked for a company where the owner openly runs his own staff down, refuses to provide uniform (or tries re-issuing 2nd hand uniform), whilst you drive buses that have a 50/50 chance of making it to their destination if they've made it out of the yard that morning, any driver can be forgiven for not being a happy, shining beacon of sartorial elegance, laughter and good public service.

And please, don't say "well you could have left and worked elsewhere", because the scope for moving jobs in a county as rural as Cornwall was virtually nil.

 

[Robertj21a]

I beg to differ. When you've worked for a company where the owner openly runs his own staff down, refuses to provide uniform (or tries re-issuing 2nd hand uniform), whilst you drive buses that have a 50/50 chance of making it to their destination if they've made it out of the yard that morning, any driver can be forgiven for not being a happy, shining beacon of sartorial elegance, laughter and good public service.

And please, don't say "well you could have left and worked elsewhere", because the scope for moving jobs in a county as rural as Cornwall was virtually nil.

In that case I would have moved out of Cornwall.

 

[Blindtraveler]

@SWTH, I think you make a valid point about staff attitude. The stuff you guys had to deal with was certainly not how to run a bus company.

The answer to how I'd run a bus company would be to try bass myself on successfull independents such as the multi award winning Prentice of Haddington, where communitty engagement is it would seam as important as anything else. Consentrate on the basics and once theyr right do the trimmings e.g WiFi, higher spec interior etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I beg to differ. When you've worked for a company where the owner openly runs his own staff down, refuses to provide uniform (or tries re-issuing 2nd hand uniform), whilst you drive buses that have a 50/50 chance of making it to their destination if they've made it out of the yard that morning, any driver can be forgiven for not being a happy, shining beacon of sartorial elegance, laughter and good public service.

And please, don't say "well you could have left and worked elsewhere", because the scope for moving jobs in a county as rural as Cornwall was virtually nil.

That wasn't so much what I meant. I meant that there was no excuse for National Express to present themselves in this way. Contracts should contain stipulations on appearance and customer services standards, and should be terminated if operators do not provide the required level of quality.

There is no point in spending a fortune on posh coaches if the staff aren't up to scratch - which far too often they aren't. Whether that is because of their personal standards or because their management is appalling (my observation suggests it'll be far more of the latter than the former) is really not my concern as a customer.

Difficulties in controlling this may, I guess, be why some Nat Ex work is now operated in-house.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The answer to how I'd run a bus company would be to try bass myself on successfull independents such as the multi award winning Prentice of Haddington, where communitty engagement is it would seam as important as anything else. Consentrate on the basics and once theyr right do the trimmings e.g WiFi, higher spec interior etc

And do the basics absolutely 100% correct, absolutely 100% of the time.

That means clean buses properly inside and out, fix rattly panels, repair or replace damaged seat covers, repair or replace damaged panels and immediately re-livery etc.

As I've said many times before I have no issues with a basic product/service if that is what the market calls for, but there is no excuse whatsoever for sloppiness, dirty vehicles, loose panels, non-matching liveries, scruffy uniforms[1] etc. I've stopped using Travelodge except where unavoidable because I'm sick of dirty rooms, loose tiles in bathrooms etc. I'd far rather use the far more basic Ibis Budget, because I know it'll just work.

I'll leave O'Leary's lot out as they are changing things to mixed success, but compare say Jet2 with Wizzair. They are both low-cost airlines - but the former give a far better impression than the latter.

[1] You can look very presentable in a polo shirt, cheap black work trousers and well-polished shoes. You can look like a scruffy oik in an ill-fitting suit. So if you can't afford to do "posh", do "non-posh" absolutely 100% spot-on. If you can afford to and want to do "posh", do it properly.

 

[Robertj21a]

That wasn't so much what I meant. I meant that there was no excuse for National Express to present themselves in this way. Contracts should contain stipulations on appearance and customer services standards, and should be terminated if operators do not provide the required level of quality.

There is no point in spending a fortune on posh coaches if the staff aren't up to scratch - which far too often they aren't. Whether that is because of their personal standards or because their management is appalling (my observation suggests it'll be far more of the latter than the former) is really not my concern as a customer.

Difficulties in controlling this may, I guess, be why some Nat Ex work is now operated in-house.

I think National Express can get tough with their contractors as and when necessary (e.g Yourbus kicked off, at short notice) and they do change contractors quite often on some routes. However, they don't always pick up on some other issues - driver appearance, and the general standard of driving, being cases in point. I'm not sure, but it may also be a little worse on those routes that don't go through Victoria or Digbeth.

 

[SWTH]

In that case I would have moved out of Cornwall.

Not easy to do when you have a wife and two children to worry about.

I would be the first to say a member of staff should never take their frustrations out on the public. However, by human nature, we're not perfect and are susceptible to acting in accordance with the situations, worries and frustrations we are dealt. These situations are very rarely a black and white, yes and no, do or don't do fix.

When you feel like your job is driving you down to deep, black depression, your situation means you can't do anything about it, and you see no solutions, life can be very lonely, and extraordinarily frustrating.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not easy to do when you have a wife and two children to worry about.

I would be the first to say a member of staff should never take their frustrations out on the public. However, by human nature, we're not perfect and are susceptible to acting in accordance with the situations, worries and frustrations we are dealt. These situations are very rarely a black and white, yes and no, do or don't do fix.

When you feel like your job is driving you down to deep, black depression, your situation means you can't do anything about it, and you see no solutions, life can be very lonely, and extraordinarily frustrating.

Totally agree that life can be difficult enough without having to also consider a wife and 2 children. However, if there's little work available, and that work is frustrating/depressing/poorly paid etc etc then it's also time to seriously consider what you can do to better the situation. How will things change in, say, 10 years time if you do little/nothing ?

 

[SWTH]

Totally agree that life can be difficult enough without having to also consider a wife and 2 children. However, if there's little work available, and that work is frustrating/depressing/poorly paid etc etc then it's also time to seriously consider what you can do to better the situation. How will things change in, say, 10 years time if you do little/nothing ?

If you genuinely think it's that simple, then you've never been in that situation.

I have no intention of putting any more of my past personal circumstances online, however bear this in mind: It wasn't for the lack of trying to better my situation. Please don't try telling me that I could have done this that or the other, if you've never been in that sort of situation you won't understand the difficulties.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you genuinely think it's that simple, then you've never been in that situation.

I have no intention of putting any more of my past personal circumstances online, however bear this in mind: It wasn't for the lack of trying to better my situation. Please don't try telling me that I could have done this that or the other, if you've never been in that sort of situation you won't understand the difficulties.

The difference is that I have been in what sounds likely to have been a very similar situation. I really know how difficult life can be at times. You have my genuine sympathy.

 

[AaronR]

MMMMMM You have picked my favourite subject in Ipswich Buses.All i will say is it is council owned and council ruined. Jeremy Cooper was not the right choice to succeed Malcolm Robson. as now proved by him resigning.

Ipswich is a town where bus users are plentiful. take the route 8/13 9 min headways ?? and a good passenger count on all Buses. the problem lays in when Malcolm Asked for money for new buses in 2013 and was turned down and had to make do with 2nd hand purchases which have cost a fortune in repairs and maintenance to which Malcolm strongly objected to and presented a case for new Buses.(The Versas prove this point) IBL suffered with the reduction in the Encts revenue which he was promised by the council would not be reduced. Malcolm set his budgets accordingly only to have the Encts reduced greatly and by far more than expected. Also all md's of Ibl become a director so as to have a seat on the board to help with matters from the council. And this council has vowed whilst labour are at the helm never to sell Ibl also ?. yet continue to ignore the people who know how to run buses. hence although Ill heath did not help Malcolm Robson certainly did.

Thanks for that! I guess you are local to Ipswich? I honestly think it is time for the council to sell Ipswich Buses. Being council owned is now stopping the company developing further, with newer and better buses, and more creative services/marketing etc. I have heard from a close source that Jeremy Cooper was a very hated man at Ipswich Buses and the strike which was planned had very little to do with pay, more working conditions, how the staff are treated and the changed that were made to duties. I've heard he made changes like cancelling all the shopping excursions which IB have run successfully for years too.

We have to stop thinking nostalgically about the fact they are one of the last municipals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have to stop thinking nostalgically about the fact they are one of the last municipals.

And yet Lothian are excellent and Blackpool pretty good.

Can't they just appoint a decent management team?

 

[nottinghamcity]

And yet Lothian are excellent and Blackpool pretty good.

Can't they just appoint a decent management team?

I would add Nottingham City Transport and Reading buses to the list of good municipal operators too. I believe that Newport transport are well thought of too.

I think National Express can get tough with their contractors as and when necessary (e.g Yourbus kicked off, at short notice) and they do change contractors quite often on some routes.

I still don't understand why NatEx still insist on contracting out their operations. By moving them in house they would gain much more control, probably be more cost effective and remove the risk of ending up with a disaster such as this, which must have done lasting damage to the brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still don't understand why NatEx still insist on contracting out their operations. By moving them in house they would gain much more control, probably be more cost effective and remove the risk of ending up with a disaster such as this, which must have done lasting damage to the brand.

It would be a big job to move them all in house - but should they perhaps consider trying something like a "National Express Gold" concept in which they use new vehicles, directly-employed drivers selected for quality of customer service as well as smoothness and quality of driving, and perhaps offer some premium features like seat selection, 2+1/pull-out seats/pay to book a pair of seats, extra legroom etc at a fee? That could be started in house on the busier routes for a small premium. Those features might well make it more attractive to people who find trains a bit expensive but coaches a bit low quality. (You can't improve the speed, but you can improve the product).

 

[Robertj21a]

I would add Nottingham City Transport and Reading buses to the list of good municipal operators too. I believe that Newport transport are well thought of too.



I still don't understand why NatEx still insist on contracting out their operations. By moving them in house they would gain much more control, probably be more cost effective and remove the risk of ending up with a disaster such as this, which must have done lasting damage to the brand.

Presumably, Nat Exp contract out because it's cheaper overall. They can run most of the express coach routes with only a fairly small admin workforce, no problems of depot accommodation, vehicle purchase, servicing, driver employment etc etc - all a lot of 'hassle' that will be handled by the contractor.
I doubt that there's any significant damage to the brand as most people forget issues in a few weeks.

 

[PeterC]

I never looked into the details at the time but, to a layman, it seemed a bit odd that NatEx was privatised as a unit. Every service that I saw in NBC days was operated by one of the constituent companies who had previously run them under their own brands and could have done so again.

 

[Mr Manager]

Thanks for that! I guess you are local to Ipswich? I honestly think it is time for the council to sell Ipswich Buses. Being council owned is now stopping the company developing further, with newer and better buses, and more creative services/marketing etc. I have heard from a close source that Jeremy Cooper was a very hated man at Ipswich Buses and the strike which was planned had very little to do with pay, more working conditions, how the staff are treated and the changed that were made to duties. I've heard he made changes like cancelling all the shopping excursions which IB have run successfully for years too.

We have to stop thinking nostalgically about the fact they are one of the last municipals.

Yes i am local JC was not hated. more despised. He was given a choice of resign or finished. He has undone 20+ years good work by Malcolm also. I believe that he has also cancelled the real ale run about. The loss pf the p+r was down to JC alone refusing to accept the 13 doing a circuit eg in via chantry and then a direct x13 via London road back. instead of his proposed 6 min headway. you can see the flaws in that plan a mile away.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Presumably, Nat Exp contract out because it's cheaper overall. They can run most of the express coach routes with only a fairly small admin workforce, no problems of depot accommodation, vehicle purchase, servicing, driver employment etc etc - all a lot of 'hassle' that will be handled by the contractor.
I doubt that there's any significant damage to the brand as most people forget issues in a few weeks.

Correct - NatEx take very seriously the idea of compliance and quality. They have stringent requirements for service car operators and duplicate providers. The Yourbus episode shows that they are happy to remove operators if needs be; the general public are probably unaware of the issue there though.

You're also right about why they sub-contract out so much. They can be much more responsive, don't need to have small depots dotted all over, don't need to have so much capital tied up, etc

As for other comments.....

National Express Gold - well, we've seen how Megabus Gold and Greyhound weren't exactly success stories. Frankly, the issue is that you have a very price sensitive client base. Therefore, you aren't going to be able to charge a premium price.

Also, the question on why express services weren't "returned" to their native operator rather than being sold off at NatEx. Simply, a lot of the benefit of the network is through long distance travel and through ticketing, reflecting more the rail industry than the bus industry. Also, many of the bus operators were already looking to exit National Express work and did so in pretty quick order - see Devon General or Ribble. They realised that they had enough on their plate/better opportunities from focussing on bus operation. Lastly, it was also a means of obtaining more proceeds from the privatisation.

 

[AaronR]

Yes i am local JC was not hated. more despised. He was given a choice of resign or finished. He has undone 20+ years good work by Malcolm also. I believe that he has also cancelled the real ale run about. The loss pf the p+r was down to JC alone refusing to accept the 13 doing a circuit eg in via chantry and then a direct x13 via London road back. instead of his proposed 6 min headway. you can see the flaws in that plan a mile away.

Wow! Despised? That's crazy. Such a shame he has undone all the good work that Malcolm put in, it was a company with a great reputation but seems like it's all been lost. I agree regarding the park and ride that it would have made perfect sense to tie the 13 in with an x13. The park and ride has moved away from its original point now I think, focussing too much on Suffolk one, and the council. I have heard also that his changes to routes and duties have not been popular which is why buses are swapped and used all over the place now with some strange allocations.

What do you think will happen now then? What's in store for Ipswich Buses?

 

[Mr Manager]

Good question. Council wont sell thats for sure. In my opinion one man who was approached when Malcolm announced his retirement should be approached again. Chris Speed. Dont know if it appeals to him now or not. All i know is we need someone in Malcolm mode to swing things around and bloody quick.