How would you refurbish a Pendolino?

[tom1649]

I seem to remember this conversation taking place before... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83149&page=7

 

[gordonthemoron]

quite a lot of people, myself included, like Pendolinos. Voyagers (esp XC ones) on the other hand.............

 

[GatwickDepress]

The only issue I have with the Pendolino is the interior. It's horrid, dank, claustrophobic, the luggage capacity is unsuitable for an InterCity service, and worst of all, no window alignment!

In an 11 carriage train, I would convert a first class carriage to standard, another to be a composite carriage - frosted glass panels with a solid gold door or something to separate the plebs from the poshies, and turn the shop into a buffet with a griddle.

Maybe half the trains wouldn't have a composite, for peak time's sake.

 

[Dave1987]

quite a lot of people, myself included, like Pendolinos. Voyagers (esp XC ones) on the other hand.............

If they weren't so dank and claustrophobic inside they would be fine.

If more were built as long as they rectified the lack of luggage space and the window issue then Im sure they would be liked by everyone

 

[aylesbury]

An interesting range of replies some daft some sensible, they do need a refurb to make the interior brighter. Windows are of importance to an enthusiast but watching most normal passengers they are not bothered. First class is needed, the peace and quite plus at seat service makes for a pleaseant journey. Standard class has to be upgraded and the seats changed ,the interior needs warm colours. Pendolinos have revolutionised the WCML and will continue for a long time to come.

 

[D6975]

Would USB charging sockets be any use (would be easier to incorporate between the seats than standard power sockets)?

Give the man a coconut.

Excellent idea, smartphones, ipads, ipods, all only need a USB socket and at just 5 Volts it should be a doddle to implement safely.

 

[RichmondCommu]

So - FEWER seats (controversial!), greater legroom, and far, far more space for luggage. In Standard Class a far greater proportion of table seating with attendant luggage space between seat backs might be a good start.

Oh, and Pendos need windows to replace the portholes.

If you pay a small fortune for a ticket surely you should have a resonable expectation of getting a seat. The chances of that diminish if you start ripping out seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well said!! The most claustrophobic trains ever, tiny overhead storage.

Travelled one one the other day from New St to Euston and was actually surprised I managed to get a seat with a window.

Have you ever taken a flight?

 

[user15681]

Is it just me that finds the blinds rattle at the windows when going over 100mph? It's a little frustrating, but it could just be that I'm unlucky with what sets I've been on.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It does disappoint me that they didn't extend every 390 to 11 cars when they had the production line open again. Even if the extra capacity is not needed now, it would be very helpful with the large increase in passenger numbers above and beyond the HS2 projections in the time before that opens. With these increases, I can even see Virgin forced to use class 801s on London-Birmingham where there isn't as much journey time difference between tilt and non-tilt EMUs.

The idea of putting in USB charging ports is a good one, as well as some more advanced 'natural' LED lighting to make the interiors feel less claustrophobic, like what Airbus and Boeing are doing in their new planes. Better WiFi will be coming soon from all the upgrades Network Rail are making in the next five years, so maybe once there is spare capacity they could even make it free?

 

[6Gman]

We all sit there looking a iPads etc nowadays so who cares about windows. Less seats mean less profit means higher fares. Few niggles with rack sizes but as they need to tilt space has to be compromised. They're fast though so that's good for me.

No we don't.

Some of us want to trainspot!

 

[Whistler40145]

Last weekend I travelled on two Pendolinos and IMHO the outsides of the coaches are looking shabby & I don't mean the usual grime when they haven't been through the washer, but peeling paint or vinyls, especially the nose ends.

Some of the original carriages could do with an internal spruce up.

I can't see much point moving the Train Manager's Office.

 

[RichmondCommu]

No we don't.

Some of us want to trainspot!

Fair do's but I'm afraid you're in the minority in terms of the travelling public. Do a little bit of people watching next time you travel on an Intercity route and the majority won't be looking out the window.

 

[starrymarkb]

I've heard that Mr Branson told Alstom he want them to look like an aeroplane so specified small windows.

Explain Voyager Windows then - they are huge!

Lets not let facts get in the way of a good myth. The small windows are a side effect of the construction used in Fiat designed European Pendolinos from the 1990s (which the UK ones are based on).The structure has longitudal ribs running along the coaches which give the vehicles immense strength for a relatively light weight. European Pendolinos of the same era are exactly the same.

The Alstom designed New Pendolino which launched in 2010 (IIRC) is more like a Voyager in terms of bodyshell, with much bigger windows and a lot of extra weight!

 

[futureA]

The pendolino is a great train but after a decade the interior looks a little dated. Maybe an interior similar to the 395 is in order. A socket for every seat is a must. But the biggest improvement would be to implement the necessary signal upgrades so they can run at 140 mph.

 

[Chrisgr31]

We all sit there looking a iPads etc nowadays so who cares about windows.

Me partly because I like looking out the window, but much more importantly because the windows give more shoulder room.

The design of the Pendlino means that there is no shoulder room at the top on the window seats where there is no window. I like a window because I can lean my elbow on the window cill and my head on my hand and go to sleep.

If going to Birmingham I now go by Chilterns as whilst its slower the trains are more comfortable!

So yes bigger windows, or every window seat lined up with a window!

 

[Dave1987]

An interesting range of replies some daft some sensible, they do need a refurb to make the interior brighter. Windows are of importance to an enthusiast but watching most normal passengers they are not bothered. First class is needed, the peace and quite plus at seat service makes for a pleaseant journey. Standard class has to be upgraded and the seats changed ,the interior needs warm colours. Pendolinos have revolutionised the WCML and will continue for a long time to come.

Hmmm I disagree with you whole heartedly on every point. All they have done is raised the speed slightly and are more reliable than what they replaced but then they are newer so that's to be expected anyway. Hardly revolutionising! If they had eliminated all domestic flights from London to Manchester and Scotland then maybe but they haven't. And if you are happy to sit in a metal tube with no natural light engrossed in your Ipad then that is up to you but some of us like natural light and to watch the world go by. And the luggage storage of a Pendo is abysmal, which for a long distance Intercity train is kind of a big failing!

 

[455driver]

I think many of the responses to this thread take the award for the moist pathetic load of bilge I have ever read! The very same people who defend Northern Rail and their clapped out heaps of junk (yes, I know about the no growth franchise!) - they must be good because they were built by BR! - slag off some of the most modern and efficient stock on the network.

But surely the new stuff should be better than the old stuff, a Pendolino can never match up to a mark 3 on passenger comfort, luggage capacity etc. Okay the Pendo has more 'fluffy stuff' but the basics (from a passenger perspective) were just wrong.

Sorry but try asking the individuals who use the trains regularly rather than a few opinionated "enthusiasts". Opinions are like bumholes.....

You got me there I have (thankfully) only been on a few Pendos.

Your precious Mk3s (particularly with the original awful seats with the damn irritating fixed armrest) do not meet modern safety standards - fact!

Niether does your beloved Pendolino!

Mk4s do not meet modern safety standards and for a long time the aircon was rubbish, failing constantly and repeatedly sucking in brake fumes, and the seats were and still remain dire...

I have never been on a mark 4 that failed so can you link me to some evidence of their failure rates please!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Fair do's but I'm afraid you're in the minority in terms of the travelling public. Do a little bit of people watching next time you travel on an Intercity route and the majority won't be looking out the window.

Certainly not if it's a 390, as the majority won't have the choice!

 

[Geezertronic]

It's actually the minority if you look at the restricted/no view seats on the 390 seating plan. I am frequently allocated Seat 1 or 4 in Coach A which is classed as a restricted/no view and it gives me a view out of the window.

They wouldn't move the TMs office to Coach A as that would put it even further away from First Class customers

Usual moaners moaning on here... The WCML is better for the 390s if only from the number of paths point of view. I doubt you could fit as many paths down the WCML if WB64 (or 350) stock was running it all.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Certainly not if it's a 390, as the majority won't have the choice!

But in all fairness the vast majority have their heads buried in their tablets / magazines / laptops / newspapers to care

 

[DownSouth]

Usual moaners moaning on here... The WCML is better for the 390s if only from the number of paths point of view. I doubt you could fit as many paths down the WCML if WB64 (or 350) stock was running it all.

No. Lower speeds (and consistent speeds across all the trains) actually produce more paths, higher speeds are only good for the "service for me" types who are lucky enough to be using one of the major stations that gains a benefit from it.

 

[iguana]

Fair dos to anyone who actually likes travelling in a Pendolino. Tastes do differ. If anyone doesn't particularly care about windows etc, fine.

What I can't believe is this "well you don't need windows anyway" tripe. What kind of Stockholm Syndrome is this? It's like an extended version of the Edinburgh cliche "You'll have had your tea...":

You won't be wanting a window then
You won't be needing legroom or decent pitch
You won't be needing somewhere to put your luggage now
You won't be wanting a pleasant interior

This is exactly the mentality Tyler is on about in the report mentioned over on another thread; the railways are captured like a hostage in a state of denial, where things that are commonplace everywhere else in the world (and used to be in Britain) are treated as insane demands, as if we're demanding at-seat silver service dining and massages delivered by unicorns.

And no, this isn't a misty-eyed BR nostalgia-trip. Scotrail's Desiros show that a modern train can be designed with respect paid to passenger comfort.

Pendos are technically impressive - but best appreciated zipping past at 90mph as I stand on Motherwell station waiting from my train. I don't want to step inside one (and I have spent hours travelling in them).

Would I prefer a Pendo to a rake of Mk1 carriages? Of course. Or to something that broke down all the time? Of course. Or to something that crawled from Glasgow to London at 80mph? Of course. But what I'd really prefer is something far better, which is easily possible given a tiny bit of imagination. And that isn't demanding unicorns.

What's shocking is the enormous sunk cost involved. Like them or loathe them, we're going to be stuck with them until they fall apart. That doesn't mean we have to like them - someone should have thought things through more thoroughly before sinking all that money into them.

 

[zn1]

MK3's and an 87 is antiquated and was at the end - an embarassment.

the moderate increase in speed ? 15mph on the west coast was an acheivement, considering the bendy nature of the route...Mk3's cannot handle 125mph around corners such as weedon. wolverton without passenger discomfort...

the 390's provide the average punter with what they want. a nice looking train to look at, a place to read their hello or play space invaders and a reasonable seat at speed. Personally when im on a train - im dead to the world until i hear the announcement to get up.

the fleet is due for internal refit, it will be done not with the gricer in mind, but with how much it will cost, value for money, life span of refit, and length of time Out of traffic...availabilty is everything these days....the fleets are stretched to maximum time on the steel, not sitting in a warm shed having men and women play with spanners on em

 

[Dave1987]

The reasons I hate them is the tiny windows and the appalling luggage space. I am not a bleary eyed "enthusiast". The Voyagers can tilt yet still have decent sized windows, they fail in respect to a disabled loo in every coach which takes up massive amounts of room!!

As usual though on here if you are not part of the pendo fan club you are slated, called a serial moaner and called an enthusiast.

Cant believe that it has come to the point where people are so engrossed in their Ipad that they aren't bothered about natural light any more.

 

[Yew]

MK3's and an 87 is antiquated and was at the end - an embarassment.

Chiltern dont seem to think so, in fact they are very proud of their Mk3 fleet... The reason virgins MK3's where an embarasment was entirely due to virgins refusal to refurbish them, as new stock was just around the corner.

I agree a comfortable seat, a decent view out of a window, and a plesant interior are hardly outlandish demands..

 

[chris89]

Since they are used a lot more on the Wolverhampton (Well Newstreet/ Euston) to Edinburgh Waverley services, i've got a lot more experince with them.

Luggage space is a must, for a Intercity train it is pretty terrible, i only take a carry bag with me, but for lots of other people, just isn't enough space (Same thing on Voyagers as well of course) But then for overhead racks on the Pendos, In coaches C, U, H if you are under the Pantograph well, you could maybe get a newspaper in that gap :P

Plugs is a must at all seats. I don't understand why they didn't think that whilst they were orginally built. As if suffering heavy delays and with the very randomly life span of batteries on phones now, you can be left in a situation.

The USB idea for phones would be brilliant, since nearly all use a USB/3 Pin plug converter now anyway to charge from the mains.

The windows, they arn't great but ok for me. Although i can see why they are disliked and the interiors for the 390s can be pretty dim at times.

Also agree with ridding one first class coach and making them all 11 coaches, as it is badly needed.

@Dave. I have to disagree with this 'As usual though on here if you are not part of the pendo fan club you are slated, called a serial moaner and called an enthusiast.' It seems to be quite the oppersit, at least for me. You can be sure in most threads the Voyagers or Pendos will get slated, nearly as much as the 14x DMUs.

Either way, i do prefer Voyagers a bit more then Pendo's myself, two of the reasons being, nicer windows (Yes use a tablet but do watch out the window) and the fact all seats have a plug.

Chris

 

[ainsworth74]

Chiltern dont seem to think so, in fact they are very proud of their Mk3 fleet...

Though that has an awful lot to do with them being the only available rolling stock at the time...

 

[Geezertronic]

Though that has an awful lot to do with them being the only available rolling stock at the time...

And haven't they spent a few quid on them too to get them up to scratch?

 

[ainsworth74]

And haven't they spent a few quid on them too to get them up to scratch?

Indeed but I'd be stunned if it was anything like as much as a brand new fleet of DMUs! Which is surely the point, Chiltern using Mk3s has very little to do with them being good vehicles and everything to do with them being available and being able to be fixed up for much less than a new unit (and of course some of them had already been done by WSMR).

Now I'm happy to be proven wrong but...

 

[cjmillsnun]

MK3's and an 87 is antiquated and was at the end - an embarassment.

Why were they an embarrassment at the end? Condition! Mainly because of neglect by VT.

the moderate increase in speed ? 15mph on the west coast was an acheivement, considering the bendy nature of the route...Mk3's cannot handle 125mph around corners such as weedon. wolverton without passenger discomfort...

But 15MPH isn't much of an achievement when it was done back in 1976 (APT). And we would've had a better train in terms of pax comfort in the bargain. Because of wastage by Railtrack and them being dreamers about moving block technology of the time we never got the 140MPH we were promised. NB I'm not using this to beat the drum for renationalisation. BR bottled it over APT, we could and should've got to 125 back in the mid 80s at the very latest.

the 390's provide the average punter with what they want. a nice looking train to look at, a place to read their hello or play space invaders and a reasonable seat at speed. Personally when im on a train - im dead to the world until i hear the announcement to get up.

hmm, no they don't. You ASSUME the average punter doesn't look out of the window. I dispute that. It depends what they're travelling for. If travelling on business I'll probably have my nose in my laptop looking at the documents for the meeting/conference I'm travelling to, catching up with my emails and getting things done, because I'm being paid to be on that train and I want to ensure that I'm not accused of going on a jolly. When I was commuting, I had my ears in because it was same old, same old. When I'm travelling for myself, I will occasionally read a few pages, perhaps check my personal email once or twice, and talk with my wife, but will always want to look out of the window and watch the world go by. There is something very relaxing about it. I'm not saying everyone does that, but we have many people who travel off peak being of retirement age or in their middle age, and being of a generation that would also look out of the window when they were younger. Some of our railways pass through some of the most breathtaking scenery this country has to offer, and even when it's just fields interspersed by the odd town or road, it's still a pleasure to watch it all go by over a coffee. So maybe they aren't for everyone, but windows are important for many people.

Fixed armrest or not, I'd rather be in an IC70. Reasonable is not a word I'd use to describe the seats in a 390. I find them uncomfortable and the seat pitch cramped.

Had seats similar to those originally fitted in the 442s been fitted then I perhaps would be happier. They had moving armrests and a highish back but nice thick cushioning and were very comfortable.[/quote]

the fleet is due for internal refit, it will be done not with the gricer in mind, but with how much it will cost, value for money, life span of refit, and length of time Out of traffic...availabilty is everything these days....the fleets are stretched to maximum time on the steel, not sitting in a warm shed having men and women play with spanners on em

And that was also the case with Intercity during sectorisation. BR has been trying to sweat its assets since Beeching, and by the 80's had learned how to do it. Most of the time, most of the fleet was out earning its keep.