How would you reform the Railcard system?

[py_megapixel]

You obviously don't understand the reason for the July and August easement - arguably the split should be 16-23 and 24-30 but I guess there isn't the political will to change that.

What is the July/August easement?

 

[JonathanH]

What is the July/August easement?

The minimum fare does not apply in July and August consistent with school / University holidays when people may be travelling or doing a summer job or even volunteering. By the time they are 26 they are likely to be commuting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The minimum fare does not apply in July and August consistent with school / University holidays when people may be travelling or doing a summer job or even volunteering. By the time they are 26 they are likely to be commuting.

Arguably in that case it should be a Student Railcard and a separate Young Person's Railcard, with the former having the exception (perhaps always valid all day) and the latter not.

 

[JonathanH]

Arguably in that case it should be a Student Railcard and a separate Young Person's Railcard, with the former having the exception (perhaps always valid all day) and the latter not.

I think the intention of the restriction is that Students do pay full fare for what are often 'bus stop'-length journeys and have discounts for long-distance travel so complete removal of the minimum fare does not make sense. Removal of the restriction in July and August for the 'Student' group makes sense as I have already written.

 

[mmh]

I think before thinking of potential reforms to it. it'd be helpful to determine what the purpose of it should be. Then design a system that delivers it.

 

[bb21]

Discussions on the rationale for HM Forces Railcard is split into this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rationale-for-the-offering-of-hm-forces-railcard.218937/

 

[Aictos]

Is there any reason why the Deutsche Bahn Bahncard won't work here? Even the Bahn 25 would be worth a lot more personally to me then a Network Railcard or a Two Together Railcard.

 

[py_megapixel]

Is there any reason why the Deutsche Bahn Bahncard won't work here?

Because British rail companies do not accept Deutsche Bahn products

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any reason why the Deutsche Bahn Bahncard won't work here? Even the Bahn 25 would be worth a lot more personally to me then a Network Railcard or a Two Together Railcard.

There are a number of proposals upthread for a "National Railcard" which is basically that, with a similarly high price. How much is the DB card now? Over 100 quid I think?

 

[Aictos]

There are a number of proposals upthread for a "National Railcard" which is basically that, with a similarly high price. How much is the DB card now? Over 100 quid I think?

It depends on which one you get, the cheapest is 9 euros and the most expensive is 6,812 euros but if you look at what they offer with it, I think they're worth far more then the existing railcards in the UK.

Prices are as follows:

BahnCard 25

BahnCard 25, 2nd class: 55,70 Euro
BahnCard 25, 1st class: 112 Euros

You get:

25% discount on the Super Savings, Savings and Flex prices of Deutsche Bahn within Germany for 1 year
Discounted partner cards available

BahnCard 50

BahnCard 50, 2nd class: 229 Euros
BahnCard 50, 1st class: 463 Euros

50% discount on the flex prices and 25% on the super savings and savings prices of Deutsche Bahn within Germany for 1 year
Discounted partner cards available

BahnCard 100

BahnCard 100 1st class: 6,812 euros 1st class: 632 Euro (monthly)
BahnCard 100 2nd class: 4,027 euros 2nd class: 372 Euros (monthly)

1 year in Germany travel flexibly without buying tickets
Discounted partner cards available
City ticket always included
Recognition of the BahnCard in local and long-distance transport of Deutsche Bahn as well as in many private railways and bus companies

Youth Bahncard 25: costs 9 euros (1st and 2nd class) for the entire period up to and including 18 years

25% discount on the Super Savings, Savings and Flex prices of Deutsche Bahn within Germany.
The card is issued for a maximum of 5 years and is valid until 1 day before the 19th birthday

My Bahncard (19 years old to 27 years old)

My BahnCard 25, 2nd class: 34,90 Euro
My BahnCard 25, 1st class: 72,90 Euros

My BahnCard 50, 2nd class: 61,90 Euro
My BahnCard 50, 1st class: 226 Euros

Save 25% or 50% for 1 year on every ticket purchase
Discounted partner cards available

Senior Bahncard

Senior BahnCard 25, 2nd class: 36,90 Euro
Senior BahnCard 25, 1st class: 72,90 Euros

25% discount on the Super Savings, Savings and Flex prices of Deutsche Bahn within Germany.

Senior BahnCard 50, 2nd class: 114 Euro
Senior BahnCard 50, 1st class: 226 Euros

50% discount on the flex prices as well as 25% on the super savings and savings prices of the Deutsche Bahn within Germany.

Reduced Bahncard

Reduced BahnCard 25, 2nd class: 36,90 Euro
Reduced BahnCard 25, 1st class: 72,90 Euros

25% discount on the Super Savings, Savings and Flex prices of Deutsche Bahn within Germany.

Reduced BahnCard 50, 2nd class: 114 Euro
Reduced BahnCard 50, 1st class: 226 Euros

50% discount on the flex prices as well as 25% on the super savings and savings prices of the Deutsche Bahn within Germany.

 

[telstarbox]

So much hate for the Network Railcard (from those unable to use it). On this basis I would be demanding products like the WYPTE MCard (£46 a week bus and rail zones 1-5) and similar PTE schemes were scrapped, because I don't have need to use them

The basis of the Network Railcard hasn't changed since its inception:

- The South East has a very large and very long fleet of trains to cope with its uniquely large peak demand
- The South East has disproportionately high peak and off-peak fares (compared to the north west, say)
- The off peak period needs to be monetised given the high overheads of its fleet and infrastructure, and the "NSE" discount is a way to stimulate off-peak travel
- The commuting and business demand needs to be managed - i.e. encourage travellers onto less busy trains
- COVID aside, the South East operators in general receive less government net support in real terms and per passenger mile (page 9 of https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf relates). Northern already cost the taxpayer £800m a year before COVID happened,

Yes the validity area isn't perfect but it's a few historical anomalies at the extremes rather than systematic.

If anything they need to promote it more and provide similar products in other cities (or just use the current subsidy and "10p ticket" schemes).

I would say even now though, it is not a product that well known outside of regular travellers (dare I say enthusiasts) and Money Saving Expert types. I encourage my colleagues to get one (and claim the cost back from the company) as it pays back quite quickly for business trips to London, Heathrow or Gatwick. One would say that business travel isn't what it's aimed at, and that's probably true, but for airport runs, if I was paying full fare it would make more sense for the company to hire me a car at its corporate rate one way and I'd drive to Heathrow.

I think in some years my personal Railcards would have paid for themselves just on my travel for work stuff, which saved my employer a few quid

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think in some years my personal Railcards would have paid for themselves just on my travel for work stuff, which saved my employer a few quid

I save them a few quid splitting tickets and taking slower routes too (typically not via London)!

The truth is I like seeking out both of those things but they win too!

 

[Grimsby town]

I suppose its quite a difficult balancing act. I can see why there is a two together railcard because obviously group travel is quite expensive by rail compared to taking the car were there is no additional cost for an additional person (upto 5 people). However, it does seem a bit perverse that lone travellers aren't encouraged on to the railway when single car occupancy is massively inefficient and environmentally damaging. I think something will have to give in the next decade or so and hopefully either rail fares can be made cheaper or a rail card can be developed for all users.

 

[JonathanH]

However, it does seem a bit perverse that lone travellers aren't encouraged on to the railway when single car occupancy is massively inefficient and environmentally damaging.

The train fare for one person is going to be closer to the cost of a car journey than the train fare for two people even with the two together railcard. Doesn't seem perverse at all.

I think something will have to give in the next decade or so and hopefully either rail fares can be made cheaper or a rail card can be developed for all users.

Yes, the cost of motoring needs to increase.

 

[Dai Corner]

If the object is to get people to use trains instead of cars perhaps there should be a car owners Railcard? Those without a car have to use public transport and are a captive market.

 

[yorksrob]

If the object is to get people to use trains instead of cars perhaps there should be a car owners Railcard? Those without a car have to use public transport and are a captive market.

Or like the song, we could just take the National Express instead (I'd think again on that one).

 

[Ianno87]

Those without a car have to use public transport and are a captive market.

Only for essential journeys. Other journeys are discretional.

 

[Dai Corner]

Or like the song, we could just take the National Express instead (I'd think again on that one).

That's why I said public transport rather than train.

Only for essential journeys. Other journeys are discretional.

So the question becomes "are railcards there to help poorer people afford to travel by train more often or are they to maximise revenue?" Do they succeed in either or both?

 

[Vespa]

I think to simplify things is one single Railcard product with the same terms and conditions except Disabled railcard which has a different T&C due to disabilty.

There is the initial upfront cost of buying it, to recoup it you would travel more, the more you travel the more you save, to make more money from it is to sell add on product such as lounge access, discounted food and drinks, discounted rail parking.....

It's a thought, rail companies can sell related products on top of the fares from the potentially increased footfall.

 

[AM9]

That's why I said public transport rather than train.

So the question becomes "are railcards there to help poorer people afford to travel by train more often or are they to maximise revenue?" Do they succeed in either or both?

It is a marketing tool to sell capacity that would otherwise be empty, pure and simple. By tailoring a number of cards to specific groups of passengers with different validity restrictions, the demand can be directed to very specific services. As far as the railway is concerned it isn't broken so it doesn't need fixing, only a few tweaks maybe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

I think to simplify things is one single Railcard product with the same terms and conditions except Disabled railcard which has a different T&C due to disabilty.

That illustrates precisesly why there is no need to try and fix all of the different cards with a single offering. Each type addresses a specific market which means that relatively little revenue is lost by opportunistic use. By keeping most card holders off oversubscribed expensive-to-provide peak services, there isn't the loss of the premium that is required to pay for them. If regular travellers start paying 34% less for their fares, then everybody else will have to pay more for their off-peak travel, which means that those trains will run empty. The season ticket subsidy already makes the peaks worse anyway.

There is the initial upfront cost of buying it, to recoup it you would travel more, the more you travel the more you save, to make more money from it is to sell add on product such as lounge access, discounted food and drinks, discounted rail parking.....

It's a thought, rail companies can sell related products on top of the fares from the potentially increased footfall.

Now that would be a sensible thing to do although lounge access might be a problem.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is a marketing tool to sell capacity that would otherwise be empty, pure and simple. By tailoring a number of cards to specific groups of passengers with different validity restrictions, the demand can be directed to very specific services. As far as the railway is concerned it isn't broken so it doesn't need fixing, only a few tweaks maybe.

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That illustrates precisesly why there is no need to try and fix all of the different cards with a single offering.

I think I'd answer that "but simplicity is a strong benefit in and of itself".

On a Swiss ticket machine, there are two levels of fare. Full price and half-price. You pick full price if you are not eligible for any discount. You pick half price if you are eligible for any discount - they are all exactly the same - child or the various demographic or full-price Halbtax cards.

Genuinely simple.

I do get that we might want to go for 3 levels - child at 50% but 34% for Railcards - but that's where it should end. The 16-17 Saver is a particularly irritating product - just extend child fares to the 18th birthday. I suppose there's even an argument, like the BIJ* EuroYouth product that used to exist on international routes, just to allow 34% discount for age 24 and under without any sort of card, though how to prove it might be an issue unless we get a national ID card at some point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

Many so called peak journeys aren't. Most Avanti morning peak services are half empty because they are priced for maximum income, not maximum bums-on-seats.

* I don't know what this stands for, sorry. I suspect the second two letters are "internationale Jugend" (international youth) or somesuch.

 

[Dai Corner]

Many so called peak journeys aren't. Most Avanti morning peak services are half empty because they are priced for maximum income, not maximum bums-on-seats.

I wonder if any work has been done to determine whether peak time business travellers using their disabled or senior railcards is revenue-positive, neutral or negative?

 

[SynthD]

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

Someone who would pay full price was put off because you made it a bit fuller.
What use do Seniors make of their peak time discount that isn’t the same work commute they did before the premature qualification for the railcard?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

Wholly in the network card area you wouldn’t be able to use your Senior Railcard on a morning peak service. Maybe that’s a “be careful what you ask for” case…

 

[Dai Corner]

Someone who would pay full price was put off because you made it a bit fuller.
What use do Seniors make of their peak time discount that isn’t the same work commute they did before the premature qualification for the railcard?

Personally, I am actually retired from work and try to avoid crowded trains but I might occasionally start a long journey at peak time to maximise my time at my destination or avoid antisocial behaviour on late night services.

 

[AM9]

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

Most peak demand is in the south-east where the Senior Railcard cannot be used before the end of morning peak* services. Outside the south-east the few Senior Railcard morning peak users presumably aren't seen as a major problem.
* actual times can vary but generally it is around 09:30 M-F.

I think I'd answer that "but simplicity is a strong benefit in and of itself".

On a Swiss ticket machine, there are two levels of fare. Full price and half-price. You pick full price if you are not eligible for any discount. You pick half price if you are eligible for any discount - they are all exactly the same - child or the various demographic or full-price Halbtax cards.

Genuinely simple.

I do get that we might want to go for 3 levels - child at 50% but 34% for Railcards - but that's where it should end. The 16-17 Saver is a particularly irritating product - just extend child fares to the 18th birthday. I suppose there's even an argument, like the BIJ EuroYouth product that used to exist on international routes, just to allow 34% discount for age 24 and under without any sort of card, though how to prove it might be an issue unless we get a national ID card at some point.

The problem there is keeping it revenue neutral, - probably much more difficult than with targeted cards.

Someone who would pay full price was put off because you made it a bit fuller.
What use do Seniors make of their peak time discount that isn’t the same work commute they did before the premature qualification for the railcard?

I think across GB the use of Senior Cards for regular commuting is probably less than some here imagine. Anecdotes don't really count as confirmation. If it was damaging to revenue, the south-east restriction would have been extended at least around major commuter cities.

 

[Qwerty133]

The current railcard system is very much aimed at the country in the 1980s rather than at present. For a start I would extent child fares in line with the school leaving age so that they are payable until the 1st September following the 18th birthday in line with the compulsory education age, however I would require those over the age of 13 to carry a form of ID (which would ideally be issued through schools for the majority but also be available at ticket offices with proof of age) in order to prevent the currently widespread abuse of child fares amongst those just above the upper limit. I would also change the 16-25 card into a 18-23 card offering a 34% discount on season tickets as well as all other tickets with no time restrictions given the lower minimum wage for younger workers.

Other than young people railcards would be combined into one product available to the following groups on their own right; 24-19 year olds, those aged 66 or older, people with disabilities and their carers (carers on carers allowance would be allowed to purchase a card in their own name and disabled people could opt to either have a card that allowed individual travel or a joint card with the second name left blank (although a second person would be required to travel at all times on such cards as it is for essential carers not companions)). Additionally a card would be available in joint names to 2 adults or an adult and child (regardless of age, however 2 discounted adult tickets would have to be purchased for each journey). This card would offer the traveller and up to 4 accompanying children 34% off single and return fares in standard class after 09:30 with the accompanying children's fare being capped at £5. I would also consider offering a 6 week railcard during the summer holidays each year costing around £5-10 in joint names to 2 13-17 year olds offering a 33% discount on child's fares when travelling together.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure how me using my Senior Railcard to get a discount on a peak time journey which is full and standing is selling capacity that would otherwise be empty?

Indeed, it is inexplicable why the restriction that applies in the South East from the early 1990s on use of the Senior Railcard wasn't extended more widely. It is hardly complicated - it simply says that the railcard isn't valid until off-peak fares are available - perhaps as AM9 says, it isn't seen as a problem if a few people over 60 get a cheaper commute.

Aligning the eligibility for the Senior Railcard with State Pension Age would have the same effect.

 

[bspahh]

I do get that we might want to go for 3 levels - child at 50% but 34% for Railcards - but that's where it should end. The 16-17 Saver is a particularly irritating product - just extend child fares to the 18th birthday. I suppose there's even an argument, like the BIJ* EuroYouth product that used to exist on international routes, just to allow 34% discount for age 24 and under without any sort of card, though how to prove it might be an issue unless we get a national ID card at some point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==



* I don't know what this stands for, sorry. I suspect the second two letters are "internationale Jugend" (international youth) or somesuch.

I think its probably Bureau International Jeunesse https://www.lebij.be/