How would you electrify Scotland?

[GRALISTAIR]

Inspired by my own post and this thread in general https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotland-review-of-the-2010s.204915/#post-4600236 and also this extant thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-services-to-inter7city.204574/#post-4593303


I decided to start this thread. How would you electrify Scotland?

Assumptions:
1. Scotland really does spell decarbonize as E-L-E-C-T-R-I-F-Y
2. England and Wales electrify also so some bi-modes are available to cascade
3. Politics intervenes and not everything can happen in the Central Belt

I assume EK and Kilmarnock go ahead and get electrified.
I assume it is logical (Moncrief tunnel and Perth remodeling happen) but then Stirling-Perth - Dundee - so then that would be 5 of the 7 cities with electrification.
Fife Circle but leave Forth Bridge and Tay Bridge to last - or batterify
Then it surely would depend where the grid feeders are likely to be located.
I always thought it should be possible (again key assumption bimodes are available) to electrify 30 kilometres either side of Inverness and Aberdeen stations -introduce bimodes and then carry on South and South-West respectively. Withdraw or cascade the INter-7-Cities to Kilmarnock- Carlisle and elsewhere or scrap.
Then fill in the gaps progressively until all 7 cities are done.

It is what I think anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is, AIUI, an electrification strategy. There’s not actually that much left to do; in passenger numbers terms it’s already over 80% I think. Perhaps the biggest jobs are the Highland line and GSW, and there’s probably some big doubts about both. W Highland, far North, Stranraer Etc have no chance.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

W Highland, far North, Stranraer Etc have no chance.

I agree.

 

[clc]

What’s the likely solution for the Maryhill line?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes that has to be high up and is Central Belt

 

[Clansman]

Can't remember what the plans were in terms of ordering, but roughly it'd go in the order of something like;

1. East Kilbride/Barrhead (duelling throughout, possible relocation of one or two stations, and platform extensions)
2. Kilmarnock (duelling throughout, and platform extensions)
4. Borders/Fife/Leven/Markinch (Unknown solution for the Forth Bridge problem, lowering of tunnel floors between Dalgety Bay and Kirkcaldy, potential platform extensions)
5. Markinch/Perth/Dundee/Arbroath (Major infrastructure works re Moncrieffe Tunnel track lowering, Dunblane-Hilton resignalling for 100mph+ running, Perth approach rebuilt & station remodelled, Invergowrie platform extension & step free mods or relocation to new location at Dundee West, Dundee station platforms refurbishment, potential Tay Bridge enhancements, and step free mods at rest of stations).

...in the next 15 or so years.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I think that the lines worth electrifying are:

Glasgow-Perth-Dundee
Dundee-Edinburgh
Edinburgh-Perth
Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness (upgrade this line).

With some upgrades, it may be more competitive to run Inverness trains via Aberdeen.

As an aside, it may be worth waiting for hydrogen trains (already in Germany now) to upgrade the network as it isn't viable to electrify some lines like Fort William, not to mention possible safety and conservation concerns.

 

[43096]

I think that the lines worth electrifying are:

Glasgow-Perth-Dundee
Dundee-Edinburgh
Edinburgh-Perth
Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness (upgrade this line).

With some upgrades, it may be more competitive to run Inverness trains via Aberdeen.

As an aside, it may be worth waiting for hydrogen trains (already in Germany now) to upgrade the network as it isn't viable to electrify some lines like Fort William, not to mention possible safety and conservation concerns.

For the likes of West Highland, Kyle, Far North and Stranraer you might just as well retain diesels. The emissions impact of them is the square root of very little.

 

[S&CLER]

There is, AIUI, an electrification strategy. There’s not actually that much left to do; in passenger numbers terms it’s already over 80% I think. Perhaps the biggest jobs are the Highland line and GSW, and there’s probably some big doubts about both. W Highland, far North, Stranraer Etc have no chance.

I can see why the case for the Highland may be marginal, but if electrification reaches Kilmarnock from Glasgow, I would have thought extension to Gretna might just make the cut. Besides the obvious diversionary value (not enough on its own to make a business case), Kilmarnock and Dumfries are fairly sizeable places that might justify one or two through trains a day to the WCML, and there are a few other smaller towns, whereas the Caledonian main line is a traffic desert between Carstairs and Carlisle, apart from Lockerbie.

 

[route:oxford]

First of all, best to accept the premise that you don't need full electrification, or continuous electrification in order to secure a win from electrification.

Then allow Scotrail to purchase a fleet of 6 car 80X series bimodes to operate on the premier Glasgow to Aberdeen route. Today, simply by running on electric as far as Stirling, it will help with improving the air quality and ambiance of Glasgow Queen Street and surrounding streets.

By taking full advantage of the bi-mode option, straightforward infill improvements can be made to the network.

Let's start with a small one If the Moncrieffe tunnel is an issue, wire up Dunblane to Gleneagles. The freight terminal at Blackford would benefit from the decarbonisation. Maybe it's time to get rid of the level crossing at Blackford too?

Then look for the next win. Find the next stretch between Perth and Aberdeen where there is a relatively straightforward opportunity for electrification. Montrose to Aberdeen?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Bimodes have to be part of the future. They allow intermittent electrification.

 

[Scotrail12]

What’s the likely solution for the Maryhill line?

I imagine it will get done at some point but I don't think it is an immediate priority as I just don't feel that line is used a whole lot compared to many of the others in the area.

I would personally get EK done ASAP and in addition, add a 2nd track between Busby & Hairmyres which would allow at least 3tph or even 4tph. After that, maybe Maryhill and Barrhead but would also look at the Fife Circle and routes to Aberdeen etc.

 

[43096]

Bimodes have to be part of the future. They allow intermittent electrification.

No. They should be confined to the dustbin of history as far as possible. The aim should be full electrification of routes. Electro-diesels give government an excuse not to the job properly - the wires running out somewhere between Swindon and Bath tells you all you need to know.

 

[gingertom]

No. They should be confined to the dustbin of history as far as possible. The aim should be full electrification of routes. Electro-diesels give government an excuse not to the job properly - the wires running out somewhere between Swindon and Bath tells you all you need to know.

not to forget Selby-Hull: "You have ordered bi-modes, therefore don't need OLE".

I've asked this before, has an electrification survey ever been done on the Forth bridge to establish if there is indeed an issue with clearance and how it is going to be addressed?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No. They should be confined to the dustbin of history as far as possible. The aim should be full electrification of routes. Electro-diesels give government an excuse not to the job properly - the wires running out somewhere between Swindon and Bath tells you all you need to know.

Please trust me on this. I totally agree with you and am a glass is half full person but I was trying to be realistic. Hell if it were me I would electrify the far north line! I think though if they are cascaded from MML because that is done (Hopefully and commonsense prevailing) in full it is a stop gap to full electrification on all key routes especially the 7 Cities in Scotland. Politicians like to save face and this helps them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

not to forget Selby-Hull: "You have ordered bi-modes, therefore don't need OLE".

I've asked this before, has an electrification survey ever been done on the Forth bridge to establish if there is indeed an issue with clearance and how it is going to be addressed?

I asked on Twitter 3 experts - they ain’t on here as far as I know but I am sure you know them as they have appeared on the Telly etc. They said the Forth Bridge is doable. I trust them.

 

[route:oxford]

No. They should be confined to the dustbin of history as far as possible. The aim should be full electrification of routes. Electro-diesels give government an excuse not to the job properly - the wires running out somewhere between Swindon and Bath tells you all you need to know.

You're not comparing like with like.

Whilst this is UK rail forums, it is not the UK government that is in charge of electrification here in Scotland. Electrification of Scotland's railway is controlled from Holyrood by our own Government.

By no means do they get everything right, but my goodness they are doing a pretty good job of it.

Under no circumstances should we be saying:-

"It went wrong in England, we won't be able to do any better".

We must say:-

"It went wrong in England, but we are Scots, we can learn from their failures and we can and will do better".

I don't think that electrification will happen between Pitlochry and Inverness, so Bimode units are likely to be needed on our network in the long term. Electrification between Perth and Pitlochry may allow for additional "local" services and the development of new stations at Inveralmond, Luncarty and Stanley that would otherwise be unsustainable on the Inter7City services.

I do think that the wires will reach Inverness via Aberdeen and Forres though.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You're not comparing like with like.

Whilst this is UK rail forums, it is not the UK government that is in charge of electrification here in Scotland. Electrification of Scotland's railway is controlled from Holyrood by our own Government.

By no means do they get everything right, but my goodness they are doing a pretty good job of it.

Under no circumstances should we be saying:-

"It went wrong in England, we won't be able to do any better".

We must say:-

"It went wrong in England, but we are Scots, we can learn from their failures and we can and will do better".

Fantastic response. Exactly my thoughts but you expressed perfectly.

 

[adrock1976]

My suggestion is that I would do

1) East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, and Troon, with Gretna Junction - Dumfries (Carlisle - Dumfries is broadly every 60 minutes Monday to Saturday). The Kilmarnock - Dumfries section could be completed later on, as the frequency on Mondays to Saturdays is broadly every 2 hours.

2) Maryhill Park line to both Anniesland and Westerton, plus Craigendoran Junction - Helensburgh Upper (this can be simple tram wire style electrification, as this would allow bimodes to be dedicated to the West Highland with the traction changeover being at Helensburgh Upper being as the signalling systems also change over there).

3) Convert the Cathcart/Newton/Neilston lines to tram operation, with on street running to Queen Street. Being as these routes were first electrified in 1960 with the equipment being designed for a 60 year operational lifespan, and would be due for replacement in the near future, this would be the time for Glasgow to bring back trams. This could be done as Phase II after a Queen Street - Central - Clyde Arc Bridge - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Glasgow International Airport - Abbotsinch - Love Street - Paisley Gilmour Street - Paisley Cross tramline is built as Phase I.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Bimodes have to be part of the future. They allow intermittent electrification.

It leads to non-electrification, where a tiny part of the railway is electrified, with the intent of doing the rest but it never does.

 

[Peter Kelford]

3) Convert the Cathcart/Newton/Neilston lines to tram operation, with on street running to Queen Street. Being as these routes were first electrified in 1960 with the equipment being designed for a 60 year operational lifespan, and would be due for replacement in the near future, this would be the time for Glasgow to bring back trams. This could be done as Phase II after a Queen Street - Central - Clyde Arc Bridge - Pacific Quay - Govan Cross - New Southern General Hospital - Braehead Centre - Renfrew Cross - Glasgow International Airport - Abbotsinch - Love Street - Paisley Gilmour Street - Paisley Cross tramline is built as Phase I.

Tram-Trains? I somehow read somewhere that they are often more expensive and less effective than both heavy rail and trams.

 

[37424]

No. They should be confined to the dustbin of history as far as possible. The aim should be full electrification of routes. Electro-diesels give government an excuse not to the job properly - the wires running out somewhere between Swindon and Bath tells you all you need to know.

I would disagree with that Bi-modes have their place full electrification is fine if you have a bottomless money and you don't have Network Fail going 3 times over budget admittedly the latter not so much of an issue in Scotland.

I think Bi-mode's can strengthen the case on core routes and possibly weaken the case off the main core section, but it does also allow to electrification to be considered in more affordable chunks rather than massive end to end scheme's.

Back to point I believe Alex Haynes commented that he was keen to see East Kilbride and extension to Perth with I would agree with.

I would then look at a scheme to extend from Perth to Dundee and Edinburgh to Dundee in conjunction with a Bi-mode Intercity Train for the Aberdeen route, then possibly Dundee to Aberdeen with the Bi-modes cascaded to the Inverness route.

 

[route101]

East Kilbride , long time coming. Not been offcially announced yet.
Maryhill.
Barrhead intially.

 

[geordieblue]

Tram-Trains? I somehow read somewhere that they are often more expensive and less effective than both heavy rail and trams.

The idea suggested was for plain trams being used to convert railway lines, not tram-trains; it's the same tactic Manchester used to start its tram system, by converting commuter railway lines.

 

[clc]

The idea suggested was for plain trams being used to convert railway lines, not tram-trains; it's the same tactic Manchester used to start its tram system, by converting commuter railway lines.

The idea of tram trains on the Cathcart Circle has been floating around for decades. I think because it’s a diversionary route for the WCML plain trams were never considered.

 

[Bald Rick]

We must say:-

"It went wrong in England, but we are Scots, we can learn from their failures and we can and will do better".

From what I’ve seen, it’s fair to say it went almost as wrong in Scotland as in England.

I don’t think the Scottish Government will buy diesel bi-modes though. Battery bi-modes are a distinct possibility, however.

 

[route:oxford]

From what I’ve seen, it’s fair to say it went almost as wrong in Scotland as in England.

I don’t think the Scottish Government will buy diesel bi-modes though. Battery bi-modes are a distinct possibility, however.

With the modular approach to the 80X series, I suspect that after a decade or so, and with ongoing improvements to battery technology an initial diesel pack could be swapped for a battery pack.

 

[gg1]

W Highland, far North, Stranraer Etc have no chance.

Agree with the first two but I wouldn't rule out Stranraer.

If we were to reach a point where the entire Scottish network is electrified except these 3 routes (not entirely beyond the realms of possibility in 30-40 years time), you have:

• Far North/Kyle - totally self contained route covering approx 220 route miles, terminating at Inverness, the primary destination for the majority of local residents
• West Highland - approximately 200 miles, largely self contained aside from 20 miles or so at the southern end. As with the Far North, services along the line directly serve the primary destination in Glasgow so electrification would make no real difference to the level of services offered.
• Stranraer - approximately 40 miles (or around 25 if Girvan is electrified) and an extension of a busy electrified route.

Add to this the fact that Stranraer would really benefit from a direct, relatively fast (ie not via Kilmarnock) service to Glasgow, the case for electrification becomes far stronger (bearing in mind in this scenario the vast majority of the Scottish network is already electrified). The most logical service provision would be an extension of the Ayr fasts, necessitating either electrification or a micro fleet of bi-modes.

 

[Bald Rick]

With the modular approach to the 80X series, I suspect that after a decade or so, and with ongoing improvements to battery technology an initial diesel pack could be swapped for a battery pack.

It could be a battery pack now. An electric 5 car weighs 38 tonnes less than a bimode 5 car, if you believe Wikipedia. Personally, I don’t in this case, but the engines alone are over 2 tonnes each dry weight and there will be well over a tonne of fuel, plus cooler group, exhaust after treatment, alternator, etc - each power pack will certainly be over 8 tonnes. So let’s say that the three power packs are actually collectively 25 tonnes, and collectively they supply 2.1 MW when derestricted.

25 tonnes of battery pack will get you somewhere in the region of 4-5MWh. Let’s be really conservative, and say it’s less than half that, and 2.1MWh. On all these conservative assumptions, a Class 80x with batteries weighing the same as a diesel power pack would therefore have enough energy to be able to operate at full power for an hour.

 

[Clansman]

East Kilbride , long time coming. Not been offcially announced yet.
Maryhill.
Barrhead intially.

Maryhill is an awkward one because there's not really any need to electrify so long as it absorbs the last of the DMUs around Queen Street, so I imagine it would only really need to be wired by the time Perth or Dundee is. It's a bit like the idea of electrifying Perth but not Dundee; enough trains pass through the line but only a fraction would realistically be able use the wires with the current stock ScotRail has.