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How dare people travelling to/from an airport take luggage with them. Do we want people to use the railway or not?
As others have already pointed out, Thameslink provides a really useful way to get to stations the north side of London without having to struggle through the mostly-inaccessible tube network.
Completely honestly, the passengers with very large quantities of hold luggage are the very ones who would be better off shunted into cars. On trains they are often taking up the same space as 2-3 passengers but only paying for a single ticket, so yes I think it's reasonable to push them into paying a supplement or making them take a particular train which is better suited to their needs.
The vast majority of potential train passengers at Gatwick are staff or passengers with nothing larger than a hand luggage case. You need to let the commuter trains take the volume, which is what they are good at.
I know that this is creating a fake destination (a bete noir for some on this forum) but it will help spread the load and stop coastway services getting rammed at Gatwick.
If I remember correctly FCC did it on the GN side of things to prevent people going to Cambridge from taking slow trains (advertising stoppers as terminating at Foxton or something), so it's definitely doable.
I also fully agree with the suggestions that if anything it should actually be cheaper than other SN services.
Completely honestly, the passengers with very large quantities of hold luggage are the very ones who would be better off shunted into cars. On trains they are often taking up the same space as 2-3 passengers but only paying for a single ticket, so yes I think it's reasonable to push them into paying a supplement or making them take a particular train which is better suited to their needs.
The vast majority of potential train passengers at Gatwick are staff or passengers with nothing larger than a hand luggage case. You need to let the commuter trains take the volume, which is what they are good at.
But how many people are actually taking "very large quantities" of hold luggage? Most will have one large hold case and a hand luggage case, which is hardly unreasonable. It feels on these forums like anyone who dares bring more than a handbag with them is deemed to be causing a massive inconvenience. Perhaps the trains serving airports and similar should actually have decent luggage provision?
Some years ago, Kent County Council was touting the idea of a Gatwick service from say Gillingham, calling at Maidstone and Tonbridge. At the time Network Rail thought there wasn't a significant demand. There are certainly a lot of people who drive or get taxis from mid Kent to Gatwick, which tends to involve the M25, notoriously prone to hold-ups.
Some years ago, Kent County Council was touting the idea of a Gatwick service from say Gillingham, calling at Maidstone and Tonbridge. At the time Network Rail thought there wasn't a significant demand. There are certainly a lot of people who drive or get taxis from mid Kent to Gatwick, which tends to involve the M25, notoriously prone to hold-ups.
Now that I think about it, it’s wild that not a single station in Kent has a direct service to Gatwick. If the airport wants to increase its public transport usage quota that’s the glaring blind spot that needs to be filled.
Not massively more so than Stansted lacking direct services to nine of Essex's ten most populous towns, or Southend Airport to seven, which doesn't make it better; largely consequences of where lines are (has a south-facing curve on the Redhill – Tonbridge line been considered, if there's capacity for more trains between Redhill and Gatwick?).
Some years ago, Kent County Council was touting the idea of a Gatwick service from say Gillingham, calling at Maidstone and Tonbridge. At the time Network Rail thought there wasn't a significant demand. There are certainly a lot of people who drive or get taxis from mid Kent to Gatwick, which tends to involve the M25, notoriously prone to hold-ups.
Now that I think about it, it’s wild that not a single station in Kent has a direct service to Gatwick. If the airport wants to increase its public transport usage quota that’s the glaring blind spot that needs to be filled.
I guess the historic junction facing Redhill, rather than Earlswood is part of the problem. So nothing can run direct.
The line via Reigate has a very tight curve, and a spur would require some houses and pass through a couple of small industrial units. If built would be similar in scale to new Camp Hill spur in Birmingham.
A direct spur line from Tonbridge direction would be much longer and need to go south of Earlswood (nearer old Asylum area, which now appears to be known as Royal Earlswood Park).
Realistically if added these routes at decent frequency, then might need a 5th reversible track alongside the existing 4 tracks, or perhaps just shorter 5 track section through 2 stations allowing stopping trains to be overtaken.
I have no idea if reopening the old route from East Grinstead to Three Bridges would be cheaper alternative from Kent, sort of linking up bits of lines, but avoiding the very busy section via Salfords
The Thameslink trains might be cattle trucks, but they are perfectly suited to airport duty, as they are massive and have lots of open space inside for luggage and circulation. And the Thameslink route is way more useful for most people getting to the airport.
Not massively more so than Stansted lacking direct services to nine of Essex's ten most populous towns, or Southend Airport to seven, which doesn't make it better; largely consequences of where lines are (has a south-facing curve on the Redhill – Tonbridge line been considered, if there's capacity for more trains between Redhill and Gatwick?).
Stansted is on a terminating branch line, whereas Gatwick is a massive through station, so much easier to expand. If Gatwick airport is to expand without just increasing road traffic further, then better public transport needs to be provided, and Kent should be a priority, seeing that Gatwick is its nearest airport.
A lot of cruises that seem to appeal to Americans start and end in Southampton. So they fly into Gatwick and then want to get to and from Southampton. That may explain some of the number for Southampton.
I have no idea if reopening the old route from East Grinstead to Three Bridges would be cheaper alternative from Kent, sort of linking up bits of lines, but avoiding the very busy section via Salfords
Reinstating East Grinstead - Three Bridges would not be easy or cheap; the trackbed has been built on at Crawley Down and this would need either a lot of compulsory purchase or a bypass, perhaps in tunnel. Once you did reach East Grinstead the junction to the low level station faced the wrong way so that's more expensive redevelopment - even if it was reinstated as-was I don't know if there'd be space for a 12-car reversing siding between the junction and where the town's one-way system has taken over the trackbed.
There have been previous discussions on this forum and elsewhere about the use of public transport between Kent and Gatwick. Initiatives involving oaches have failed, as have those involving trains, not least indicated by the removal of a 377/3 for use elsewhere in the peak. Getting past the current challenges surrounding the Redhill to Tonbridge link would require a significant change of demand.
Even if the service was free, I don't think demand between Kent and Gatwick would shift markedly from road transport, as it is.
I always end up with my tickets splitting at East Croydon if that helps.
That would mean I would need to use services that stop at East Croydon.
You also need to allow for the fact that the Elizabeth Line interchanges with Thameslink at Farringdon and therefore the route for a large number of people becomes Thameslink.
Gatwick having such a good service means it mostly needs reliablity improvments for when the Brighton Mainline is stopped, as it doesn't have a second rail route into Central London, unlike Heathrow. How about a Box Hill Curve from the Mole Valley line near Dorking to the Redhill-bound North Downs line, with 1tph of extended South Western railway terminators through Reigate to Redhill, then reversal to Gatwick. Waterloo to Dorking is already 50 mins, and Dorking (Deepdene) to Gatwick looks like an extra 25, so it would take 1hr 15, but it might be useful in disruption.
There have been previous discussions on this forum and elsewhere about the use of public transport between Kent and Gatwick. Initiatives involving oaches have failed, as have those involving trains, not least indicated by the removal of a 377/3 for use elsewhere in the peak. Getting past the current challenges surrounding the Redhill to Tonbridge link would require a significant change of demand.
Even if the service was free, I don't think demand between Kent and Gatwick would shift markedly from road transport, as it is.
the issue with Kent is that it is very decentralized, and there is no one real economic centre.
The money (Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells) - is ostensibly London money and requires fast London services (and many LHR flights!) - but is not as heavily populated.
The population bases (Medway, Maidstone, Ashford) - are less wealthy, less frequent travellers and probably less likely to fill whichever train would run to Gatwick.
The easiest thing would probably be threading together the shuttles and extending to Gatwick/TB: Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Maidstone - Strood (or veer to Medway proper) - more as a convenience thing with the added benefit of more access to LGW. As well as many more rail connections too of course, notably Brighton every few mins.
the issue with Kent is that it is very decentralized, and there is no one real economic centre.
The money (Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells) - is ostensibly London money and requires fast London services (and many LHR flights!) - but is not as heavily populated.
The population bases (Medway, Maidstone, Ashford) - are less wealthy, less frequent travellers and probably less likely to fill whichever train would run to Gatwick.
The easiest thing would probably be threading together the shuttles and extending to Gatwick/TB: Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Maidstone - Strood (or veer to Medway proper) - more as a convenience thing with the added benefit of more access to LGW. As well as many more rail connections too of course, notably Brighton every few mins.
In Connex days there used to be a service at the start / end of day and on Sundays between Maidstone West and Three Bridges. I remember going on it to the airport from Maidstone West and the conductor struggled to sell me a through ticket as it wasn’t on his ticket machine database. After that there was a South Central service between Tunbridge Wells and Horsham. Most people just used it as a shuttle to Tonbridge to access more services to London
Victoria is not a particularly convenient place in London to travel to from Gatwick, the range of points Thameslink serve are better. London Bridge for anywhere south-east. Farringdon for the Elizabeth Line. Kings Cross and St Pancras directly. Etc. The belief that any old point called London will do is misplaced, the whole idea of Thameslink was to distribute passengers to various useful points, which it does.
Prior to the pandemic and the Elizabethan Line. Victoria still had 4/5ths of the London (and beyond) traffic despite Thameslink.
If I'm coming in to London from the south Id still use Victoria in preference to Thameslink the following locations: Euston, Anywhere on the Northern Line except KX STP, Anywhere on the Victoria Line, Paddington (unless the final destination has a direct train from Farringdon), Marylebone, Any where in the West End or South Kensington Areas.
Its a quicker journeytime, the tube frequency is better
Thats history now though, as post #10 shows, London Bridge and Thameslink stations are about 2.3m journeys, compared to Victoria 2.7m
If include the 0.55m journeys to/from Clapham Junction then Victoria is now under half the direct London destinations.
Victoria is much less popular route than when Gatwick Express launched 42 years ago in 1984, because Thameslink and Elizabeth line have changed travel patterns
The easiest thing would probably be threading together the shuttles and extending to Gatwick/TB: Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Maidstone - Strood (or veer to Medway proper) - more as a convenience thing with the added benefit of more access to LGW. As well as many more rail connections too of course, notably Brighton every few mins.
The shortest rail route from Strood or Maidstone to Gatwick is via Bromley South by about 5 miles. By Car from the Medway towns via the M26/5/3 i ts generally just under an hour for the 44 miles.
An all stations shuffle via rural byways with a reversal at Redhill was/is never going to attract end to end traffic.
Brighton is the regional centre for Sussex and the corridor south of London. From Romney Marsh (just over the Kent Border) its about the same distance as Central London.
Brighton doesn't really have the attraction that you might think for Kent, we have better seaside without being ripped off with London Prices and London has better city attractions.
For stag nights we go to Canterbury/ Brugge/ Amsters/ Ryan air via Stansted.
That's why there's not really any transport links either rail or road.
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Thats history now though, as post #10 shows, London Bridge and Thameslink stations are about 2.3m journeys, compared to Victoria 2.7m
If include the 0.55m journeys to/from Clapham Junction then Victoria is now under half the direct London destinations.
Victoria is much less popular route than when Gatwick Express launched 42 years ago in 1984, because Thameslink and Elizabeth line have changed travel patterns
The figures in post 10 are flawed because nearly all Gatwick Expresses start back at Brighton. They only include Victoria as a destination not as an interchange.
Gatwick Express arrivals alone at Victoria are approaching 5 million pa.
My experience of Victoria station is that its not an amazing interchange, and its arguably the second more peripheral of the "major" London stations - its almost as far out as Paddington.
And if Oxford is important, why not combine Gatwick-Reading and Reading-Oxford services. To serve expansion, need to cater for the masses, not stay stuck continuing a service pattern from decades ago because do nothing change-wise is easy option.
Why not then extend to Milton Keynes on East West rail? Meaning northern towns and cities can access the service, and don't have to go through London, easing overcrowding on the London services
My experience of Victoria station is that its not an amazing interchange, and its arguably the second more peripheral of the "major" London stations - its almost as far out as Paddington.
Its a question of peripheral to what though, Victoria to Trafalgar Square is 1.2 miles about half the distance from Kings Cross St Pancras/Euston.
Its the 6th busiest station in the UK, growing by about 6% last year.
Victoria is much less popular route than when Gatwick Express launched 42 years ago in 1984, because Thameslink and Elizabeth line have changed travel patterns
Where Victoria is very important is foreign travellers coming in to stay in London. Many of the big hotels used by foreigners, both business people and tourists, are not far from Victoria.
My experience of Victoria station is that its not an amazing interchange, and its arguably the second more peripheral of the "major" London stations - its almost as far out as Paddington.
Victoria is much less popular route than when Gatwick Express launched 42 years ago in 1984, because Thameslink and Elizabeth line have changed travel patterns
Somewhat also because the passenger mix at Gatwick has substantially changed. There used to be a substantial number of flights to the USA, delivering large numbers of USA-based passengers, who mainly focused on London Zone 1, and the Gatwick Express suited them, including unthinkingly paying for First Class. Those flights have completely gone to Heathrow, their place taken by low fare operators within Europe, whose UK passengers generally go to/from home, and even incoming Europeans are less likely to be paying central London prices.
Some may remember having to show USA travellers how to open the doors on the Mk2 stock on the Express! They're not on the train any more.
Somewhat also because the passenger mix at Gatwick has substantially changed. There used to be a substantial number of flights to the USA, delivering large numbers of USA-based passengers, who mainly focused on London Zone 1, and the Gatwick Express suited them, including unthinkingly paying for First Class. Those flights have completely gone to Heathrow, their place taken by low fare operators within Europe, whose UK passengers generally go to/from home, and even incoming Europeans are less likely to be paying central London prices.
Some may remember having to show USA travellers how to open the doors on the Mk2 stock on the Express! They're not on the train any more.
Yes. Takes me back to slam door days explaining to puzzled foreigners how to exit at LGW.
1.First we bang the bar at the top.
2.Next we pull down the window.
3.Then we extend arm through window, grasp door handle, turn and open.
Foreigner then offers grateful thanks and flees to Terminal.
Somewhat also because the passenger mix at Gatwick has substantially changed. There used to be a substantial number of flights to the USA, delivering large numbers of USA-based passengers, who mainly focused on London Zone 1, and the Gatwick Express suited them, including unthinkingly paying for First Class. Those flights have completely gone to Heathrow, their place taken by low fare operators within Europe, whose UK passengers generally go to/from home, and even incoming Europeans are less likely to be paying central London prices.
You have to remember that when the Gatwick Express started in 1984 the airport had around 10 million passengers pa. In 2025 it was 43 million. Gatwick currently serves 214 destinations direct many of them outside Europe.
The rail station currently has 21 million exits/ entries.
My experience of Victoria station is that its not an amazing interchange, and its arguably the second more peripheral of the "major" London stations - its almost as far out as Paddington.
Depends on your frame of reference. Victoria is undoubtedly the place to be for anyone heading to the West End from a southerly direction. Sure, Thameslink is the obvious way of getting into the City, but that has less to offer for tourists. Victoria is also a stones throw away from Buckingham Palace and Westminster, so its definitely worth much more than you give it credit for, and certainly not the same level as Paddington.
Where Victoria is very important is foreign travellers coming in to stay in London. Many of the big hotels used by foreigners, both business people and tourists, are not far from Victoria.
Victoria might be great for tourists arriving in London, but an awful lot of Gatwick traffic is British people in London and the Southeast flying out, and the Thameslink is a lot more convenient for a lot of people, as it interchanges to so many lines serving the home counties to the north, west and east of London, with the Farringdon interchange to the Liz Line.
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