How Welsh is Wales?

[anti-pacer]

Odd question you may think, but Wales doesn't feel very Welsh in parts, to me anyway. Possibly this is down to the geography of Wales and the north having close links to North West England.

North Wales for example is a good case in point. In the north west they are Welsh to the core with a very high percentage of Welsh speakers. It looks "Welsh" in a way that places like Flintshire don't. The accent in the north east sounds a softer version of Scouse and it looks very English. By that I mean street names, shop names, pubs, and the general feel of the place. Connah's Quay looks very different to say Caernarfon (castle aside).

In the south, Cardiff doesn't feel that Welsh whereas Swansea definitely does. Penarth wouldn't look out of place on the south coast of England, but Pontypridd feels extremely Welsh.

Scotland all looks and feels Scottish to me. I see very little Englishness up there, whereas Berwick, despite being in England looks and feels Scottish. I think Scotland has more of a widespread identity. Wales doesn't.

Do you agree with this? If not what are your views?

 

[backontrack]

Odd question you may think, but Wales doesn't feel very Welsh in parts, to me anyway. Possibly this is down to the geography of Wales and the north having close links to North West England.

North Wales for example is a good case in point. In the north west they are Welsh to the core with a very high percentage of Welsh speakers. It looks "Welsh" in a way that places like Flintshire don't. The accent in the north east sounds a softer version of Scouse and it looks very English. By that I mean street names, shop names, pubs, and the general feel of the place. Connah's Quay looks very different to say Caernarfon (castle aside).

In the south, Cardiff doesn't feel that Welsh whereas Swansea definitely does. Penarth wouldn't look out of place on the south coast of England, but Pontypridd feels extremely Welsh.

Scotland all looks and feels Scottish to me. I see very little Englishness up there, whereas Berwick, despite being in England looks and feels Scottish. I think Scotland has more of a widespread identity. Wales doesn't.

Do you agree with this? If not what are your views?

People in Connah's Quay, Shotton and Wrexham often look to English cities (like Manchester and Liverpool) for employment, although there are obviously other things, like Glyndŵr and Airbus. In Scotland, things are concentrated to a large extent around the central belt (Aberdeen being the exception), which actually covers a large area (I'd say a kind of weird decagon between Perth, Dundee, North Berwick, Gorebridge, Carstairs, Lanark, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Helensburgh and Stirling). Edinburgh is probably the most English place in Scotland, and even then that's only really because of students.

There's always some fiercely-strong Welsh feeling anywhere in Wales though. It's just that it's less obvious in some places. I know you mentioned Caernarfon excluding the castle, but it's an extremely historic place and the castle has imbued the town with a strong national feeling. The castle was built by the English. It's a symbol of English dominance but also of Welsh defiance. The tales of the Princes are there, apparently Owain Glyndŵr's in a cave playing chess with King Arthur or something, and that is palpable in Caernarfon. It's a Plaid Cymru stronghold, isn't it? And there's other significance there, too. David Lloyd George, for example.

The Deeside towns and Wrexham area are traditional Labour areas, with a much different feel. But they're still Welsh, just in a different way.

 

[TheEdge]

In my experience Welshness tends to increase with distance from the border, but even then its not absolute. The Welshest place I've ever been is probably Blaenau Ffestiniog where I remember being in a Co-Op and being the only English speakers I could hear, a friend at school who used to live in one of the South Wales valleys claimed not being able to speak fluent Welsh was an open invitation to mass bullying. When I went to university in Aberystwyth Welsh was widely spoken and it felt very distinctly Welsh, but again, that far on the other side of the Cambrian Mountains.

On the other hand there are bits of rural Oxfordshire that feel less English than some of Monmouthshire!

 

[najaB]

Scotland all looks and feels Scottish to me. I see very little Englishness up there, whereas Berwick, despite being in England looks and feels Scottish. I think Scotland has more of a widespread identity. Wales doesn't.

A large part of the Scottish 'feel' is down to the built environment: there is very little red-brick up here. Between red sandstone in Glasgow, granite in Aberdeen or gold sandstones in Tayside there's a common Scottish architecture that is very different to much of 'down south'.

You know you're in England when you start seeing rows of brick houses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A large part of the Scottish 'feel' is down to the built environment: there is very little red-brick up here. Between red sandstone in Glasgow, granite in Aberdeen or gold sandstones in Tayside there's a common Scottish architecture that is very different to much of 'down south'.



You know you're in England when you start seeing rows of brick houses.

That and most modern Scottish houses tend to be rendered, English ones much less so.

 

[StarCrossing]

North Wales for example is a good case in point. In the north west they are Welsh to the core with a very high percentage of Welsh speakers. It looks "Welsh" in a way that places like Flintshire don't. The accent in the north east sounds a softer version of Scouse and it looks very English. By that I mean street names, shop names, pubs, and the general feel of the place. Connah's Quay looks very different to say Caernarfon (castle aside).

Don't get me wrong, I can see where you're coming from, but that is a rather simplified view.

I can see why people from outside Wales might think Welsh speakers are more Welsh than non Welsh speakers, but that's really not the case. Look at Scotland - hardly anyone in Glasgow speaks Gaelic for example, but most locals are fiercely proud of being Scottish.

Things are also different within quite small areas. I come from Flintshire, and where I come from, most road names and house names are Welsh, and a lot of people speak Welsh. There are also sheep everywhere, which a lot of people associate with Wales! Connah's Quay is closer to Chester and can feel a bit different, like you say.

Accents are a funny thing. Most Welsh people that are well known in the wider UK (e.g. rugby players or TV presenters) are from the M4 corridor so a lot of people assume we all speak the same way as them. I don't think a North East Wales accent is any less Welsh than a South East Wales accent. On a related theme, I seem to remember watching the Liverpudlian John Bishop on a chat show once, and one of the American guests asked him if he could do an English accent!

 

[me123]

I recently (actually, over 9 months now! hock: ) moved from Scotland to NE Wales.

I would agree with anti-pacer to an extent. Wales is not as strongly Welsh as Scotland is Scottish. Certainly around here, you could quite easily think you're in England a lot of the time.

There are plenty of reminders that you're in Wales of course - Welsh road names, bilingual signage, I hear Welsh spoken at least a few times a week (often daily). But the predominant accent is NW England (in all its forms) and there are lots of people (certainly near where I live) who have moved out to Wales from Liverpool/Manchester. This perhaps "dilutes" the Welshness to a degree. I think being remote from Cardiff also makes North Wales a bit less distinct. Our nearest major towns and cities are Liverpool, Chester and Manchester. Cardiff, although politically very important, is as far away as Glasgow in practical terms and there's no practical way to get there from the North East without entering England at least once. It's only natural that North Wales would take on a distinct identity flavoured in no small part by the North West of England. I'd very much agree that you gradually get more Welsh as you go West.

But the difference with Scotland is that it's gradual in Wales. When I drive up and down the M74, when I'm going up and down on the train there's a noticeable difference when you hit Scotland. A lot of it is the architecture as najaB has pointed out. That's not the same when you go down the A494 into North Wales - I don't think there's even a sign welcoming you to England as you travel Eastbound.

With probably more day-to-day movement over the border and a strong allegiance with the cities of the North West, I think it's only natural that North Wales does tend to blend more with England. But I don't think that the Welsh identity is lost at all.

I can see why people from outside Wales might think Welsh speakers are more Welsh than non Welsh speakers, but that's really not the case. Look at Scotland - hardly anyone in Glasgow speaks Gaelic for example, but most locals are fiercely proud of being Scottish.

Probably the reason no-one in Glasgow speaks Gaelic is because Glasgow has never been a Gaelic speaking city. There are pockets of Gaelic speakers (Partick is particularly notable) who are descended from Highlanders who moved in the clearances, though.

I don't think it's quite the same to compare Gaelic and Cymraeg. Gaelic has always been relatively localised to the Highlands and Islands, with Scots/Scots English being more common elsewhere. With Cymraeg, I get the impression that it is quite widely spoken throughout most of Wales.

I do find it weird when people claim that Welsh is a dead language that is only in existence because of fierce Welsh nationalism - it's the exact opposite. It's a language that's very much widely used alongside English, lots of people speak Welsh in their homes and lots of people have been and are being educated in the Welsh medium, and in nine months in Wales I've yet to encounter anyone who is hostile to English.

 

[Stuwhu]

I'm just waiting for someone to tell a tale of going into a shop/pub in Wales and everyone speaking English before they arrive and then switching to Welsh when they get through the door... (some sort of variant of this tale/myth seems to told whenever Welsh is mentioned!!)

 

[Dai Corner]

I've never heard Welsh spoken in a public place in this little corner of England currently occupied by the Welsh. The nearest I've got to Stuhuws scenario is when I worked in a school and the teachers of Welsh sometimes switched to that language.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I'm just waiting for someone to tell a tale of going into a shop/pub in Wales and everyone speaking English before they arrive and then switching to Welsh when they get through the door... (some sort of variant of this tale/myth seems to told whenever Welsh is mentioned!!)

My own variant is being in a queue for the till and overhearing Welsh, but with the numbers in English "welsh words welsh words welsh words seven pounds thirty welsh words welsh words welsh words". More than once.
As if the speaker had trouble with Welsh numbers.

 

[StarCrossing]

Probably the reason no-one in Glasgow speaks Gaelic is because Glasgow has never been a Gaelic speaking city. There are pockets of Gaelic speakers (Partick is particularly notable) who are descended from Highlanders who moved in the clearances, though.

I don't think it's quite the same to compare Gaelic and Cymraeg. Gaelic has always been relatively localised to the Highlands and Islands, with Scots/Scots English being more common elsewhere. With Cymraeg, I get the impression that it is quite widely spoken throughout most of Wales.

That's all true. The point I was rather clumsily trying to make is that a village or town in Wales with few Welsh speakers is no "less Welsh" than one with many. However, I can understand that to an outsider, it could feel that way.

 

[me123]

That's all true. The point I was rather clumsily trying to make is that a village or town in Wales with few Welsh speakers is no "less Welsh" than one with many. However, I can understand that to an outsider, it could feel that way.

Oh absolutely, Welsh nationality and Welsh language proficiency are not correlated.

 

[PHILIPE]

I live in Caerphilly and virtually the only opportunity I have to speak Welsh in this area is when I go to Welsh speaker's events and activities such as a coffee mornings. Occasionally I do meet a few people I have got to know at other times and are Welsh speakers, so I get an opportunity there. On the other hand, I use to go on an organised walk which included a lady who had "emigrated" from the traditional heartlands and was a first language Welsh person, but she preferred to converse in Saesneg (English).
Another story, there use to be a local Welsh Gift shop and cafe and one day a couple from the heartlands of the Gogledd came in and walked out again on discovering the two ladies serving were unable to speak Welsh although they just as much Welsh.

 

[Howardh]

There are parts of Argentina that are more Welsh than Wales! Think I'm being serious there, aren't there established welsh communities who may have introduced rugby to them? Anyone know to save me going to Wikimail?

I often wish we had an exclave of another country in the UK, if only for somewhere to easily get to for a change. Wonder if we can keep Gibraltar but in return give the Portland Bill to Spain? Similar area and geography, and I'm sure the locals wouldn't mind. Too much. Think of the tourists banging in the duty frees....£££'s!!
Or euroseuroseuros....

 

[anti-pacer]

There are parts of Argentina that are more Welsh than Wales! Think I'm being serious there, aren't there established welsh communities who may have introduced rugby to them? Anyone know to save me going to Wikimail?

I often wish we had an exclave of another country in the UK, if only for somewhere to easily get to for a change. Wonder if we can keep Gibraltar but in return give the Portland Bill to Spain? Similar area and geography, and I'm sure the locals wouldn't mind. Too much. Think of the tourists banging in the duty frees....£££'s!!
Or euroseuroseuros....

I've heard the Argentina thing. It's been on TV.

 

[PHILIPE]

There are parts of Argentina that are more Welsh than Wales! Think I'm being serious there, aren't there established welsh communities who may have introduced rugby to them? Anyone know to save me going to Wikimail?

I often wish we had an exclave of another country in the UK, if only for somewhere to easily get to for a change. Wonder if we can keep Gibraltar but in return give the Portland Bill to Spain? Similar area and geography, and I'm sure the locals wouldn't mind. Too much. Think of the tourists banging in the duty frees....£££'s!!
Or euroseuroseuros....

That is Patagonia to where a group of Welsh speakers emigrated in 1865 and set up a "Welsh colony" and promoted the language and culture and which, of course, expanded.

 

[Howardh]

That is Patagonia to where a group of Welsh speakers emigrated in 1865 and set up a "Welsh colony" and promoted the language and culture and which, of course, expanded.

Thank you. Did they take the weather with them?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are parts of Argentina that are more Welsh than Wales! Think I'm being serious there, aren't there established welsh communities who may have introduced rugby to them? Anyone know to save me going to Wikimail?

I often wish we had an exclave of another country in the UK, if only for somewhere to easily get to for a change. Wonder if we can keep Gibraltar but in return give the Portland Bill to Spain? Similar area and geography, and I'm sure the locals wouldn't mind. Too much. Think of the tourists banging in the duty frees....£££'s!!
Or euroseuroseuros....

Patagonia - massively diluted now apparently - an intriguing mix of Spanish and Welsh ( the latter being heritage one understands) - most of the initial batch of Welsh settlers came from a few parishes in Montgomeryshire , seeking tolerance and an escape from English Lords and landowners. As the place was annexed by Argentina around 1916 , the "welshness" faded out. Fascinating story.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Pembrokeshire was known as "little England beyond Wales" - and in my neck of the woods (or origin) - North Gower facing Llanelli was much "Welsher" than the South - the latter having been nicely taken over the Norman hierarchy.

Swansea City is certainly more Welsh than Cardiff (and less prosperous) - but to get a real feel for a Welsh speaking community you need to go to somewhere like Ammanford or Brynamman ....

 

[PeterY]

Just out of pure interest and I know Cornish people have their own language and nothing to do with the thread title but I did find it interesting at Saltash Station and the station sign saying Welcome to Cornwall in both English and Cornish.

Of course there's also Southall which as some writing underneath, which I'm guessing is Indian

 

[AlterEgo]

Just out of pure interest and I know Cornish people have their own language and nothing to do with the thread title but I did find it interesting at Saltash Station and the station sign saying Welcome to Cornwall in both English and Cornish.

Of course there's also Southall which as some writing underneath, which I'm guessing is Indian

Southall station has Punjabi signs. There's no such language as "Indian", as India has many languages.

 

[Class172]

Just out of pure interest and I know Cornish people have their own language and nothing to do with the thread title but I did find it interesting at Saltash Station and the station sign saying Welcome to Cornwall in both English and Cornish.

Of course there's also Southall which as some writing underneath, which I'm guessing is Indian

The sign is written in Punjabi if I remember correctly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southall station has Punjabi signs. There's no such language as "Indian", as India has many languages.

Indeed, that very reason is why English is so widely spoken over there - it is used (like it often is in Switzerland) as a "bridge" language.

 

[PeterC]

My own variant is being in a queue for the till and overhearing Welsh, but with the numbers in English "welsh words welsh words welsh words seven pounds thirty welsh words welsh words welsh words". More than once.
As if the speaker had trouble with Welsh numbers.

That isn't uncommon. I also recall overhearing a conversation between a couple of lads in a pub in Lampeter where about every third word was distinctly "Anglo-Saxon".

These days I find that eastern Monmouthshire feels more "Welsh" than it did 30 years ago as people from Newport and the Valleys move out to new housing. But Wales is no more homogeneous than England with, say, Dolgellau and Abergavenny being as different as London and Leeds.

 

[Greenback]

Oh absolutely, Welsh nationality and Welsh language proficiency are not correlated.

Spot on, mate

Many people born in Wales would not identify themselves as Welsh speakers, being far from fluent in the language, but almost all of us will speak a bit of the language. Whether we only know a couple of words, or can understand a fair bit of what's said on S4C without the subtitles, we do conisder ourselves Welsh!

Interestingly, I believe there are a lot more people now than there used to be who don't describe themselves as British in conversation.

That is Patagonia to where a group of Welsh speakers emigrated in 1865 and set up a "Welsh colony" and promoted the language and culture and which, of course, expanded.

Patagonia - massively diluted now apparently - an intriguing mix of Spanish and Welsh ( the latter being heritage one understands) - most of the initial batch of Welsh settlers came from a few parishes in Montgomeryshire , seeking tolerance and an escape from English Lords and landowners. As the place was annexed by Argentina around 1916 , the "welshness" faded out. Fascinating story.

I went to college with someone from Patagonia. Her Welsh was very good, although wiht a quite promounced Spanish accent. Naturally, over time the Welsh heritage is going to dwindle and will probably eventually die out completely.

 

[Greenback]

Pembrokeshire was known as "little England beyond Wales" - and in my neck of the woods (or origin) - North Gower facing Llanelli was much "Welsher" than the South - the latter having been nicely taken over the Norman hierarchy.

Swansea City is certainly more Welsh than Cardiff (and less prosperous) - but to get a real feel for a Welsh speaking community you need to go to somewhere like Ammanford or Brynamman ....

Llanelli certainly has a Welsh feel. It's still common to hear Welsh being spoken in shops and on the streets, and there are a few customers where I work who speak to me in Cymraeg. I do my best to answer with the words and phrases that I know, but that usually only makes them smile!

 

[Essan]

Thank you. Did they take the weather with them?

Yes ....

"Parts of Welsh Patagonia have been left devastated by the worst rain in four decades. Homes have been washed away and cars left floating down the streets in terrible scenes"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/parts-welsh-patagonia-been-left-12959593

 

[Bookd]

The contrast with Scotland was mentioned earlier. I have been to Monmouth and Chepstow, for example, and not noticed much difference other than the road signs; on the other hand if you walk over the bridge at Coldstream there is an immediate change from a Northumbrian to Scottish accent and the whole nature of the shops, pubs and architecture gives a feel of a different country.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes ....

"Parts of Welsh Patagonia have been left devastated by the worst rain in four decades. Homes have been washed away and cars left floating down the streets in terrible scenes"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/parts-welsh-patagonia-been-left-12959593

Sorry to hear that , the railway there just about hangs on I think ......

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Can't have a thread about Wales on a rail forum without mention of drên Ivor now can we ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZMNyscPcg