How useful would West London Orbital be?

[Dima]

Hi all,

I am wondering what are your thoughts on the usefulness of the West London Orbital route?

Personally, I am struggling to see who would be its target audience. It won’t enable that many direct journeys, as there are practically no major destinations along its route, and when it comes to journey with transfers that can be done using it, they already can be done with a change at West Hampstead.

Linking NLL to Hounslow loop looks kinda useful, but IMO it could been done with a new interchange station when the lines intersect. Even then I am not sure how much it is really needed given that you can get to the places on the Hounslow Loop using the Tube through Acton and if you need to get further away you can just change at Richmond.

I am slightly concerned by the operational challenges this line with pose, as it would share the tracks with the EMR/Thameslink (MML), NLL, SWR and the freight services. An issue on one of those lines could cascade to others as well. Besides, is there enough on the MML to accommodate those services without disrupting EMR and TL? As I understand it, they would use the fast lines used by the EMR services that don’t stop on any of those stations? Also the Dudding Hill line is now freight-only, which means that the freight trains can be held there before they are allowed to join the mainlines, to minimise disruptions to passenger services. If we are sending passenger trains down this line, then we can no longer do that, unless we hold them as well, which doesn’t really make it a good passenger experience.

In short, I am not convinced that this line would be very useful to justify the spending, and that if built it would solve more problems than it would create. But I would be happy to change my mind - as a train enthusiast I would like to see and ride a new line going through places that haven’t seen passengers for more than a century!

What do you think about it?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can the OP explain what the West London Orbital is? Details of start and end points, planned stations, interchange opportunities and so on. Any chance of a link to a map?

 

[Class15]

Can the OP explain what the West London Orbital is? Details of start and end points, planned stations, interchange opportunities and so on. Any chance of a link to a map?

Don’t have a map to hand but I can answer your other query.

It would run something like this:


West Hampstead Thameslink
Cricklewood
Neasden (Dudding Hill line)
Harlesden (Dudding Hill line)
Acton Central
South Acton
Brentford
Syon Lane
Isleworth
Hounslow

I think there were also branches to Hendon (at the North end), and Kew Bridge (at the South end).

IIRC TfL were going to use diesel trains initially due to the fact that the Dudding Hill line and the Kew Bridge connections are unelectrified.

For anyone unaware the Dudding Hill line is the route connecting the Midland route at Brent Cross West and the North London line at Acton Wells. Freight only and diesel only.

 

[JonathanH]

West London Orbital map and discussion in this thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-added-to-mayor’s-transport-strategy.161342/

 

[THC]

Ten seconds on Google gives you this

THC

--

West London Orbital

Our proposal for a new rail service in west London - as part of the London Overground network - would support the creation of new homes and jobs

tfl.gov.uk

West London Orbital​

We're making plans for a new rail service on existing, underused rail lines in west London that would become part of the London Overground network. The West London Orbital rail service would run from Hounslow towards Hendon and West Hampstead in the north.

• Proposed scheme
• The potential route
• Progress so far
• Next steps

The aim of this work is set out in the Mayor's Transport Strategy.

Proposed scheme​

The objectives of the West London Orbital service are:

Public transport connections in outer London​

Improve public transport services to and between major trip destinations in west and northwest London (for example, town centres and Opportunity Areas at Old Oak/Park Royal, Burnt Oak/Colindale, Brent Cross/Cricklewood, Wembley and the Great West Corridor) to support a shift towards active, efficient and sustainable modes of transport.
It would also enhance west and northwest London's continued economic growth and competitiveness.

New homes and jobs​

Enable and optimise the delivery of new homes and jobs in west and northwest London in line with the principles of good growth

Public transport capacity​

Enhance public transport capacity in west and northwest London to relieve pressure on existing corridors and ensure the resilience of the public transport network as population and the economy grows.

Wider economic, environmental and social benefits​

Reduce social, economic and spatial inequalities and widen access to jobs, town centres and local amenities, enhance local environmental quality and help tackle the causes and consequences of climate change.
The West London Orbital would offer a range of benefits for west London and beyond, including:

• Significant journey time savings and improved interchange opportunities
• Better access to jobs, services and open spaces
• An attractive and accessible alternative to driving, to help relieve road congestion and improve air quality
• Support for the delivery of new homes and local regeneration

The potential route​

The West London Orbital service would use existing rail lines, including the Dudding Hill line - this is currently used for freight services only. The scheme would provide new stations on the Dudding Hill line, as well as additional platforms and facilities at other existing stations along the route.
Our strategic narrative document is an overview of what the scheme is, what it aims to achieve and a summary of the benefits of the scheme for west London.

• West London Orbital - Strategic narrative (October 2021)
  PDF 7.91MB
  

Progress so far​

We're working closely with the West London Alliance, our West London borough partners and Network Rail to develop the case for the scheme, progress the engineering design, refine the timetable and identify funding opportunities.
Work completed so far shows that a new rail service is the best option to meet our objectives and confirms that there are feasible solutions for all elements of the project.

Next steps​

With our partners we're now looking at moving to the next phase of design, if we can get the necessary funding.
Funding to complete the scheme would be needed from local sources and national Government as well as TfL and the GLA. If that funding can be found - and we get all approvals needed - then services could start in the early 2030s.
Public consultations will be held on all proposals before any major decisions are made.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Three points:

1) The single biggest question about the benefit and/or viability of this mooted new service is whether or not a new station abutting Old Oak Common will be built. Such a station giving people access to the biggest interchange station in suburban London - even bigger than Stratford or East Croydon, Barking or Clapham Junction - would guarantee that many people would use the service.

2) The biggest constraint by far on an additional service will be Acton Wells Junction. It's pretty obvious that an extra 4 trains an hour in each direction will be problematic. How feasible will it be to make that section 4 track? There isn't much room and the twin junction is elevated.

3) Greater London has an enormous population and the success of the Overground services indicates that if a frequent new service is provided, many Londoners will adapt to it to benefit from its potential. So, that at present the value of this mooted new service is not obvious is not proof that the idea is foolish.

 

[cle]

Anything which disperses people at OOC (and thus not on Crossrail, or Euston) - is welcome. That's going to be the biggest draw.

Beyond that, it goes through some pretty deprived and light industrial areas, but fairly well connected radially - which might be ripe for more development. It should be denser. The Neasden plan is a great example.

And for local journeys, it might relieve the North Circular a bit. And increase service to a lot of developments along Brentford - also the businesses there. And the Hounslow loop is underused, so why not.

I agree it doesn't have a huge draw at any end, but will be a useful tool. Look at GOBLIN - nowhere to nowhere, through not very much. This is better connected.

I do think services to Richmond might be more welcome for some, but the change at Acton Central, for instance, is simple.

 

[eh_oh]

It will use the Hendon (freight) lines on the MML so not disrupting there.

 

[Halish Railway]

I don’t see what benefit a service from the Old Oak Common area to West Hampstead via Neasden provides since it closely duplicates the North London, I mean Mildmay line.

I can see the virtue of running from points further south of Old Oak Common to Brent Cross West (or wherever the planned terminus is) and beyond. A link from Hounslow to Old Oak Common will likely encourage people travelling into central London to change onto the Elizabeth Line, rather than taking the Piccadilly line or SWR into Waterloo.

Likewise, a service from Luton to Old Oak Common/Richmond/Hounslow would go a long way in creating more journey opportunities from stations along the southern section of the MML and greatly reduce the dependence on services that run through the Thameslink core.

 

[30907]

I don’t see what benefit a service from the Old Oak Common area to West Hampstead via Neasden provides since it closely duplicates the North London, I mean Mildmay line.

I also wonder about this option, though it may be a matter of practicality: a turnback at Hendon could probably only handle 4tph, and Kew Bridge as well as Hounslow are shown as potential southern termini.

Likewise, a service from Luton to Old Oak Common/Richmond/Hounslow would go a long way in creating more journey opportunities from stations along the southern section of the MML and greatly reduce the dependence on services that run through the Thameslink core.

The problem with Luton or anywhere north of Hendon is that the MML is already pretty congested and adding more trains would be a challenge.

I do think services to Richmond might be more welcome for some, but the change at Acton Central, for instance, is simple.

I, too, wonder that Richmond is not an option: the line is busy but is built for frequent stopping trains; it should be able to manage another 4tph, and the terminal capacity at Richmond is already there.

 

[Mr. SW]

I think the essence of the line is connection, not the destinations per se. It offers an enhanced method of getting through West London without going into the city centre. Most of the proposed stations will be either direct interchanges or OSIs (Neasden and Harlesden).

The main sticking points are Acton Wells Junction itself, Acton Wells Junction to South Acton, the three level crossings in Acton** and the the four manned signal boxes. And a fourth level crossing at Wood Lane Isleworth: A really nasty one too as the road is on a slope.

There has been some recent development:
Recent news here

London Overground’s West London Orbital extension study due soon

Work on a proposed West London Orbital extension of the London Overground is still ongoing, but the early feasibility report is nearly ready for TfL and the local councils to consider.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

Work on a proposed West London Orbital extension of the London Overground is still ongoing, but the early feasibility report is nearly ready for TfL and the local councils to consider.

** Acton is also famous for being the childhood hometown of Asma al-Assad.

>Edit for minor error
>Second edit for omission of a level crossing.

 

[JCO1406]

I wonder what name and colour it would have. Looking at the map, I feel like black would be the best option to avoid colour clashes.

 

[Flinn Reed]

I think part of the problem is the proposed route being split into branches. There is little sense in having a branch to Kew Bridge, with the proposed Lionel Road Station nearby towards Hounslow. To the north, Brent Cross West would make sense as a terminus, with redevelopments in the area and slightly more Thameslink trains stopping compared to other stations for interchange, but I'm not sure the line needs to continue to Hendon. West Hampstead doesn't make much sense though, as the Jubilee Line and Overground already provide similar links, and more directly.

The line also seems to go slightly too far to the west to provide an interchange at Old Oak Common, also missing out Willesden Junction which has the potential to be a more major interchange station. I think the West London Orbital could have more potential if instead split and restructured with the existing Mildmay Line route to create two new lines. So trains from Stratford could simply all go through to Acton, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then create a new line from Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West, diverting after Shepherds Bush to use the tracks used by Southern services, approaching Willesden Junction to stop at new platforms on the WCML. Then running alongside the freight sidings, with a new curve of track connecting to the Dudden Hill Line to cross over the WCML towards Harlesden and Neasden, and finally terminating at Brent Cross West.

 

[cle]

I think the latest plans had dropped Kew Bridge, and only showed Hounslow. How that might turn 8tph is interesting to consider. And whether some go on to Feltham or around to Twickenham… or take over Addlestone tph maybe - nobody would use it end to end.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think part of the problem is the proposed route being split into branches. There is little sense in having a branch to Kew Bridge, with the proposed Lionel Road Station nearby towards Hounslow. To the north, Brent Cross West would make sense as a terminus, with redevelopments in the area and slightly more Thameslink trains stopping compared to other stations for interchange, but I'm not sure the line needs to continue to Hendon. West Hampstead doesn't make much sense though, as the Jubilee Line and Overground already provide similar links, and more directly.

The line also seems to go slightly too far to the west to provide an interchange at Old Oak Common, also missing out Willesden Junction which has the potential to be a more major interchange station. I think the West London Orbital could have more potential if instead split and restructured with the existing Mildmay Line route to create two new lines. So trains from Stratford could simply all go through to Acton, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then create a new line from Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West, diverting after Shepherds Bush to use the tracks used by Southern services, approaching Willesden Junction to stop at new platforms on the WCML. Then running alongside the freight sidings, with a new curve of track connecting to the Dudden Hill Line to cross over the WCML towards Harlesden and Neasden, and finally terminating at Brent Cross West.

This is what London Recconections proposed years ago. A new line from the WLL will join the NLL west of Old Oak, where a new Overground station would be built.

 

[30907]

To the north, Brent Cross West would make sense as a terminus, with redevelopments in the area and slightly more Thameslink trains stopping compared to other stations for interchange, but I'm not sure the line needs to continue to Hendon.

I suspect it's easier to find space for a turnback there.

The line also seems to go slightly too far to the west to provide an interchange at Old Oak Common, also missing out Willesden Junction which has the potential to be a more major interchange station. I think the West London Orbital could have more potential if instead split and restructured with the existing Mildmay Line route to create two new lines. So trains from Stratford could simply all go through to Acton, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then create a new line from Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West, diverting after Shepherds Bush to use the tracks used by Southern services, approaching Willesden Junction to stop at new platforms on the WCML. Then running alongside the freight sidings, with a new curve of track connecting to the Dudden Hill Line to cross over the WCML towards Harlesden and Neasden, and finally terminating at Brent Cross West.

An interesting idea, which has some benefits (Southern would be able to call at Willesden...).

However, I haven't used the NLL/WLL in years, but I suspect there is a good deal of traffic across Willesden Jn, and passengers might not take kindly to what would be a rather awkward interchange with the new platforms.
The main objection, though, would be the added cost of the new curve (and the station). I am not sure the additional traffic generated by a relatively small tweak to the Dudding Hill route would justify it - LO has worked by adapting existing infrastructure, and its one new-build, the Shoreditch High Street section on the ELL was (amply) justified on its potential.

 

[Dima]

Can the OP explain what the West London Orbital is? Details of start and end points, planned stations, interchange opportunities and so on. Any chance of a link to a map?

Sorry, I should’ve included a link: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/planning-for-the-future/west-london-orbital.

1) The single biggest question about the benefit and/or viability of this mooted new service is whether or not a new station abutting Old Oak Common will be built. Such a station giving people access to the biggest interchange station in suburban London - even bigger than Stratford or East Croydon, Barking or Clapham Junction - would guarantee that many people would use the service.

Yeah, Old Oak Common would be important here.

That being said, the OOC is basically just the HS2 and EL, and also not much in the vicinity. I struggle to see what would make it larger than Stratford for example.

Also the out-of-station interchange the WLO would provide here would be less convenient than direct interchanges the EL has with other lines that serve the north-eastern part of the proposed WLO route.

And increase service to a lot of developments along Brentford - also the businesses there. And the Hounslow loop is underused, so why not.

This is probably one of the larger benefits - giving Hounslow, Brentford etc a convenient access to the EL at OOC.

It will use the Hendon (freight) lines on the MML so not disrupting there.

Thanks for clarifying that - I for some reason thought that the EMR uses the westernmost pair of tracks here, but I remember now that they use the one in the middle (unless there are disruptions).

 

[cle]

That being said, the OOC is basically just the HS2 and EL, and also not much in the vicinity. I struggle to see what would make it larger than Stratford for example.

Also the out-of-station interchange the WLO would provide here would be less convenient than direct interchanges the EL has with other lines that serve the north-eastern part of the proposed WLO route.

As well as EL, it will see all GWML trains call (Bristol, Cardiff etc) so we'll see a lot of changing there for EL, for Heathrow and for HS2. Or jumping in cabs/buses to get to West London places.

Giving WLO/NLL means a lot more people descending from GWML and HS2 trains are not ALL on EL - but can disperse in different directions. There is the Central line at the western end, but I can't see it being that well used for OOC. The again, Stratford was a Frankenstein too - still is, to a degree.

Eternal murmurs / manifesting of a set of bays for Chiltern sending 4tph up their route.

WLL would have given the South London and Clapham access, probably the biggest miss.

 

[Meerkat]

Isn’t this service using lines where freight operators ‘hide’ trains whilst they link up paths on the various main lines - what are they saying?
My judgment isn’t great as I wasn’t sure about the East London line being viable, but that is through crowded inner city, was ’new’ cross river link, and serves the fringe of the City. The West London line is in suburban car-owning country, much further out.
The ‘OOC’ station is likely to be cheap, leaving a 500m trudge and who will it connect who wouldnt be better staying on until their terminal?