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How to serve Bradford?

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Waverley125

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I've always thought Bradford is far to big a city to not have a direct service to london. At last, it is getting one, but is it really the best way of running it? Personally i don't think so. I'd much prefer to see services to both Interchange & Forster Square, the latter via the 'electric horseshoe' into Leeds, serving Kings Cross, the former taking a more circuitous route to St Pancras.

East Coast: London Kings Cross-Doncaster-Leeds-Shipley-Bradford Forster Square (91s & Mk4s)

Open Access: London St Pancras-Sheffield-Barnsley-Penistone-Huddersfield-Halifax-Bradford Interchange (180s or 22xs)

The Former gives Leeds a sub-2hrs service to London, while the latter gives good connections in West Yorkshire to other large towns, combined population around 300k.
 
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transportphoto

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I think it is a good idea for two TOC's (East Coast & EMT) to opperate different ways into London. Although dosn't givem much for London Connections (as both KGX & St. Pancras) are the same Underground Stns. It would help with connections to the West (via EMT) changing at a station like Sheffield for a XC Service - Connections to the North via East Coast Mainline Company. So I wonder if your Idea Waverley125 will ever get a green light and be an actual operation?
 

Dewedin

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Waverley125, Forster Square already has direct services to KGX via Leeds.
 

A0

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I've always thought Bradford is far to big a city to not have a direct service to london. At last, it is getting one, but is it really the best way of running it? Personally i don't think so. I'd much prefer to see services to both Interchange & Forster Square, the latter via the 'electric horseshoe' into Leeds, serving Kings Cross, the former taking a more circuitous route to St Pancras.

East Coast: London Kings Cross-Doncaster-Leeds-Shipley-Bradford Forster Square (91s & Mk4s)

Open Access: London St Pancras-Sheffield-Barnsley-Penistone-Huddersfield-Halifax-Bradford Interchange (180s or 22xs)

The Former gives Leeds a sub-2hrs service to London, while the latter gives good connections in West Yorkshire to other large towns, combined population around 300k.

Given that Bradford already has a direct service to KX and there is little capacity on the MML south of Bedford and into St P itself, there's no real chance of an OA operator gettting slots there. Also why does there need to be a direct service from Interchange and FS? Other major cities with multiple stations don't have direct London services from them all - e.g. Manchester (Picc & Victoria), Glasgow (Central & Queen St), Liverpool (Central & Lime St) - what makes Bradford any different?
 

142094

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The Former gives Leeds a sub-2hrs service to London, while the latter gives good connections in West Yorkshire to other large towns, combined population around 300k.

I don't really see the point of going via Penistone, would add quite a lot of time onto the journey, and connections to Leeds are already pretty good.

What would be better is for the Leeds - Doncaster line to be speeded up a bit, I've been on a few Leeds - London trains which seem to take a while to get through this section.
 

4SRKT

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The trouble with all this is that Bradford does have a direct service to London (two from Shipley, which acts as a sort of 'Bradford Parkway', if you count the Skipton > Kings Cross train), but they are hardly used. To my mind there are two reasons for this.

1) The ticketing system works to guide people onto the cheapest train. Thus when the limited number of cheap fares on the through train are sold out, most people will put up with the minor incovenience of changing at Leeds to get a cheaper fare. If you have an open ticket it's inconvenient, especially on the return journey, to wait around for the through train when there's a half hourly service Kings X > Leeds.

2) Bradford is so close to Leeds and has 6 trains an hour to one or other station. Therefore connections off London trains are never more than a few minutes. You'd have to send the majority of Kings X > Leeds trains through to Bradford to make through trains consistently more convenient than changing. There might be some point to this if Northern were to ditch the Leeds > Forster Square shuttle, but you'd be essentially providing a huge amount of over capacity otherwise.

I use the Skipton > KIngs X working sometimes between Shipley and Leeds, and the great majority of people on board through the Aire Valley get off at Leeds. It is therefore just a luxurious commuter train, at a time in the morning when the extra capacity isn't really needed.

Basically, what's the point in through London services to/from either Bradford or Skipton?
 

Waverley125

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basically a lot of people would use a service if it were provided. We saw this at Hull where usage leapt after a regular service was introduced rather than a once daily service. As we are so often told, 50% of people won't use the train if it means changing, even locally. We see this with other 'branch' services e.g. Blackpool on the WCML, Liverpool (change at Wigan/Preston/Crewe) etc. This is the 'railheads' idea beeching proposed, which as we know is incorrect. The public are inherently irrational, but faced with a 20 minute ride into Leeds (on a pacer for most who go through interchange) or a drive, they'll drive.

Certainly for the OA service via Penistone, there are no services (or the near changes) for Huddersfield, Halifax, Penistone or Barnsley to London. This service could be EMT rather than OA, running as the second hourly sheffield service, on top of a London-Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield run.

The reason Bradford gets two routes is the nature of the stations. Forster Square sends you an entirely different route to London, down an entirely different main line. The same as New Street & Moor Street. Personally I'm also in favour of MML Electrification through to Leeds with an hourly service, which could run alternately with the Bradford diesel service.

There are other routes Bradford could be better served on too. I'm also in favour of reversing the Leeds-Morecambe and Leeds-Carlisle services into Forster Square to give better connections to the North, as well as a 'fast' hourly caldvervale service (Hull-Southport) giving the city connections either side of Manchester and Leeds (Calling pattern would be Brough, Selby, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Interchange, Halifax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Manchester Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Wigan Wallgate, Southport)-running time 3hr15min end to end, giving Bradford a 1hr20min service to hull, and a similar service to Bolton & Wigan
 

Vulcan

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I heard plans for Grand Central to run trains from the interchange using 180s, or did I imagine this?

But personally I don't think its that much of a problem to get to Leeds and change, especially when there is a frequent service from Foster Square using comfortable, air conditioned, fast class 333s, and then the East Coast trains tend to sit around with the doors open at Leeds long before the departure time, so usually its possible to get straight off one train onto the other.
 

4SRKT

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basically a lot of people would use a service if it were provided. We saw this at Hull where usage leapt after a regular service was introduced rather than a once daily service. As we are so often told, 50% of people won't use the train if it means changing, even locally. We see this with other 'branch' services e.g. Blackpool on the WCML, Liverpool (change at Wigan/Preston/Crewe) etc. This is the 'railheads' idea beeching proposed, which as we know is incorrect. The public are inherently irrational, but faced with a 20 minute ride into Leeds (on a pacer for most who go through interchange) or a drive, they'll drive.

Certainly for the OA service via Penistone, there are no services (or the near changes) for Huddersfield, Halifax, Penistone or Barnsley to London. This service could be EMT rather than OA, running as the second hourly sheffield service, on top of a London-Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield run.

The reason Bradford gets two routes is the nature of the stations. Forster Square sends you an entirely different route to London, down an entirely different main line. The same as New Street & Moor Street. Personally I'm also in favour of MML Electrification through to Leeds with an hourly service, which could run alternately with the Bradford diesel service.

There are other routes Bradford could be better served on too. I'm also in favour of reversing the Leeds-Morecambe and Leeds-Carlisle services into Forster Square to give better connections to the North, as well as a 'fast' hourly caldvervale service (Hull-Southport) giving the city connections either side of Manchester and Leeds (Calling pattern would be Brough, Selby, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Interchange, Halifax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Manchester Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Wigan Wallgate, Southport)-running time 3hr15min end to end, giving Bradford a 1hr20min service to hull, and a similar service to Bolton & Wigan


I don't agree that Hull and Bradford are comparable situations. Hull is at one end of a long, effectively branch, line with an infrequent service in comparison with Bradford's short distance and high frequency. A through Hull > Kings X train can gain benefit between Hull and Doncaster by being faster than the local trains and not stopping so frequently. There is no time benefit on the short and relatively station-free route between Leeds and Bradford, and nobody is going to omit the stop at Shipley, where at least half of the Bradford traffic originates (well sited for the north of the city, large car park etc). Bradford effectively has a turn-up-and-go service for open ticket holders, whereas even with Hull Trains, Hull still only has a handful of attractive services. Up until about 5 years ago, Bradford had 4 direct GNER services to Kings Cross, all of which were poorly used and all but the early morning one withdrawn. This remaining one is presumably funded by Bradford Council, which, in the absence of a proper service, I (as a council tax payer) would prefer them not to waste money on. Also, Bradford > Kings X trains require a reversal at Leeds, which given the frequency of services between the two cities, destroys any time saving of a through train. Indeed, Men Of Steel can leave Shipley 8 minutes after the Bradford > Kings X service has called and still have a fighting chance of joining it at Leeds! This feature of lengthy turnarounds at Leeds is probably unavoidable even in a more frequent service scenario: trying to merge the inherent unreliability of a long-distance working into a wholly self-contained part of the local network could cause chaos at the complex and intensively worked set of junctions at Shipley if there wasn't the safety valve of 10 or so minutes layover at Leeds to ensure punctual departure from there to Forster Square.

Only one train in four from Bradford Interchange to Leeds is ever a pacer (the one from Huddersfield), and even this service is often worked by a 158. The Railheads idea is not incorrect, which you seem to take as some sort of axiom. The notion that people will catch a train to a railhead is not 100% correct, maybe, but put in the car parking at the railhead and people will drive to it. In West Yorkshire we see this in action in the disproportionately heavy use of Wakefield Westgate, far higher than a small and relatively unprosperous city like Wakefield could be expected to generate. Indeed, I have colleagues who live in Bradford who find it preferable to drive to Wakefield rather than mess about with trying to get on the through train, or get to Interchange/Forster Square (no parking) and then change at Leeds. Or even to drive to Leeds where, like everything else in that city, the parking is ludicrously expensive. This is the modern reality of long distance train travel: that railheads and 'core routes' very much exist, but that local rail services aren't the only feeder option.

However, I don't disagree that Bradford would benefit from being properly integrated into the Trans-Pennine network. Let's concentrate on this, rather than on some status symbol direct service to London.

So far as sending Leeds > Carlisle/Morecambe trains into Forster Square is concerned, I'd be against this as the time penalty would be 15 minutes on an already slow journey. There are 6 trains an hour from Shipley to Forster Square, which ensures short and reliable connections. Shipley is the de facto hub of Bradford's railway services for a large part of the city, and many people use it that way, rather like people in Kendal using Oxenholme as their main station. If you renamed it 'Bradford North' maybe the issue would disappear!

I'd like to see a two hourly frequency Leeds > Glasgow service, operated by TPE using high quality DMU stock, and calling only at Shipley (for Bradford), Keighley, Skipton, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Motherwell. This would provide a quality service from West Yorkshire to South West Scotland, as well as a decent, basic interval service for Lockerbie. Overlaid with this would be a two hourly Leeds > Carlisle local service (semi-fast to Settle). A single set can make a train every 3 hours between Skipton and Lancaster, so this seems a good use for a 2-car Pacer, providing a more frequent service on that line (which could then be singled between Carnforth and Settle Junction, with a locked out emergency loop at Bentham, as the line would be one engine in steam), albeit at the cost of changing at Skipton onto the 333s every time (good cross-platform connections could surely be provided).
 
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Capybara

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Indeed. See also Harrogate. The main attraction of a through train is that it cuts out the connection time. If the train has to reverse then you lose that. Mind you, I'm old enough to remember a King's Cross-Bradford service that didn't call at Leeds.
 

4SRKT

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Indeed. See also Harrogate. The main attraction of a through train is that it cuts out the connection time. If the train has to reverse then you lose that. Mind you, I'm old enough to remember a King's Cross-Bradford service that didn't call at Leeds.

So am I. And also just old enough to remember deltics climbing out of Bradford Exchange! My Lordz!

I notice that no operator has bothered with a through Kings X > Harrogate service for years now, with only the southbound working being provided. If anything is a recognition that nobody wants to be bound to a specific train for their return journey, this is it. People will plan a certain departure on the way out, but how can you be sure by what time your business will be done for the return?
 

Waverley125

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I disagree. With regard to reversing, you should have read the post. I mentioned the installation of the 'electric horseshoe', so there would be no reversing at Leeds, as the fast service would leave the ECML north of Doncaster and approach Leeds from the East.

To me, the most obvious solution is the 'Bradford Crossrail' viaduct across the city, with a new high-level station on the site of the proposed Westfield shopping centre (i.e. the Hole). Then CV trains could run via Shipley and head south, while Carlisle & Morecambe trains could do the same via Pudsey. It would also mean, were LKX trains to run, a nice loop could be achieved- Doncaster-Leeds-Shipley-Bradford-Pudsey-Leeds-Doncaster. And it would facilitate through trains from Airedale & Wharfedale to Calderdale, such as Ilkley-Halifax.
 
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tbtc

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The point of the "horsehoe" curve was that GNER (or whoever) could run London - Leeds - London without any layover time, not to serve Bradford.

Instead of comparing Bradford to Hull (totally different) you'd be better comparing it to Sunderland - a city next to a "mainline" station that has a frequent London service. A lot of people in Sunderland still find it easier to get the frequent Metro to Newcastle and change there for a Kings Cross (despite the Grand Central service). Similarly, a direct London - Bradford service would still find it hard to compete with the frequent London - Leeds and Leeds - Bradford services.

However, going via Penistone is going to be no use to anyone - could take twice as long as via the ECML
 

4SRKT

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I disagree. With regard to reversing, you should have read the post. I mentioned the installation of the 'electric horseshoe', so there would be no reversing at Leeds, as the fast service would leave the ECML north of Doncaster and approach Leeds from the East.

To me, the most obvious solution is the 'Bradford Crossrail' viaduct across the city, with a new high-level station on the site of the proposed Westfield shopping centre (i.e. the Hole). Then CV trains could run via Shipley and head south, while Carlisle & Morecambe trains could do the same via Pudsey. It would also mean, were LKX trains to run, a nice loop could be achieved- Doncaster-Leeds-Shipley-Bradford-Pudsey-Leeds-Doncaster. And it would facilitate through trains from Airedale & Wharfedale to Calderdale, such as Ilkley-Halifax.

Nobody is going to electrify from Leeds to Hambleton to avoid reversal for London > Bradford trains. I doubt anyone would seriously allow it to get beyond a proposal even for Leeds services, where the benefits in terms of time would be marginal, and extra congestion added between Micklefield and Leeds, already a tricky section to fit the stopping services through. Wakefield is also a very big traffic generator, almost a 'West Yorkshire Parkway', easier than Leeds for many people who live in, well, Leeds....... If Bradford were to have a regular service to and from London, the fact that it also embraced a regular service to and from Wakefield would be a considerable boon.

What's more, layover time, far from being a nuisance is essential to the smooth operation of a timetable, especially on long distance services. You can't get away from the mess a late running London > Bradford train would cause at Shipley, whether or not it had to reverse at Leeds.

Nobody is ever going to put right the sins of the Midland, L&Y and GNR in not connecting up Bradford. If money can't be found to fill the Hole, it won't be found for what would be a huge engineering project. Bradford, very unfortunately, has to live with the legacy railway history has left it.

Any through running from Ilkley or wherever would require electrification of the Calder Valley line, which I don't believe is on the cards.

My father and I have thought about this at length, and we've come to the conclusion that there's no real benefit to diverting most routes serving Bradford or Shipley via a cross city rail link. It would just slow them down, and Bradford wouldn't have any extra services to anywhere it doesn't have now. The failure to connect Bradford up is a problem because it caused the local railway network to become centred on Leeds, at a time when, if anything, Bradford was the richer city. Had Bradford been connected up in the nineteenth century, the local railway network simply wouldn't look like it does now, and lots of things that are now out of the question would be possible (including, maybe, some sort of regeneration for poor old benighted Bradford :()
 
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GNERman

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Thanks, I was sure I didn't dream this up. Be nice to get some different coloured trains at Bradford Interchange, its all a bit blue/purple at the moment.

Yeah it will be good, you do know though that Interchange has a daily EWS freight through...
 

yorkie

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So am I. And also just old enough to remember deltics climbing out of Bradford Exchange! My Lordz!

I notice that no operator has bothered with a through Kings X > Harrogate service for years now, with only the southbound working being provided. If anything is a recognition that nobody wants to be bound to a specific train for their return journey, this is it. People will plan a certain departure on the way out, but how can you be sure by what time your business will be done for the return?
Agreed. And it's not just that but the morning train is busy with commuters. This isn't going to be the case on the northbound working.
 

Vulcan

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I think it's a scrap working which runs around in the loop...

I think we may be thinking of Foster square actually, Scrap train runs in forwards to bradford, runs round, goes back to Shipley then backs into the scrapyard. Although I'm sure I've seen freight trains in the Interchange before.
 

sixhundred

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Bradford has never been well served by direct trains to London. They come and they go but never seem to be consistent.

There's probably a hundred different reasons and I would suggest:

1) The service to/from Leeds is pretty good, from where there are trains to London.

2) Is there demand for direct trains to London? Perhaps some but I would guess it's not huge.

I've used the direct train on occasion and the train has been pretty empty. The current incarnation also takes a long time and there is little advantage over getting to Leeds and changing.

The other factor is Bradford isn't the powerhouse city it could have been. It's not a target destination for businesses unlike Leeds. Perhaps this is a consequence of the poor trains from London, who knows. The fact is Bradford has suffered from numerous issue which have held it back. It doesn't really need a high speed London service.
 

Vulcan

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Whilst I agree that something needs to be done about the great hole of Bradford (No 1 landmark in the city), There isn't much of a problem with the current arrangement. We now have a direct service to London thanks to Grand Central, and if thats not good enough there is ample trains and buses to Leeds, where there are plenty of East Coast services.

What they really need is a direct service to Axminster, with no intermediate stops. Preferably using New York Central's jet powered railcar, or similar. It would certainly make visting home on a weekend a lot easier!
 

Eric

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Well the possible cross rail link just never dies down does it?

Although how it would work is beyond me and although the new six platform station (artists impression in the T&A) looks bloody amazing.

I can't see where the money is going to come from when the Council are hell bent on building lakes and ponds and destroying more victorian landmarks of our once proud city.
 
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