how to report ticket not set up correctly?

[JamTin]

hi, first post so apologies if I have missed some etiquette. I did a quick search and didn't find anything answering this already.

I have recently started commuting daily from Finsbury Park to Cheshunt via Tottenham Hale. I have been buying anytime day returns, which explicitly say via Tottenham Hale Underground on them. However the route has not been set up correctly in the system so the ticket lacks the printed + and does not operate the barriers at Tottenham Hale. This is a real pain.

Does anyone know a process for reporting this to whoever centrally sets these things up? I'm not sure asking the station staff to report it would be that effective.

thanks

 

[John @ home]

Welcome to the forum, JamTin!

the route has not been set up correctly in the system so the ticket lacks the printed + and does not operate the barriers at Tottenham Hale.

I think it's a problem with the way the barriers have been programmed rather than the way the ticket has been set up. I don't think a printed '+' would be appropriate. That would open the barriers at Zone 1 terminal stations as well as at Tottenham Hale and no doubt the price would be increased to reflect the longer, more expensive journey that would then become available. At present, 'route TOTTENHAM HALE UND' limits you to using the Victoria Line Finsbury Park - Tottenham Hale.

It's many years since I used Tottenham Hale regularly, but I seem to remember the barriers being to and from the tube station only. Is that still the case? We need to establish whether the complaint should go to London Underground or the National Rail station operator, in this case NXEA.

 

[A60K]

I don't think that strictly speaking the + symbol should be shown - it's actually a cross-London marker (and it's not necessary for it to be shown on all other tickets valid on the Underground) so it would be used only on a ticket valid from Finsbury Park into KX then on the Underground to Liverpool Street and then up to Cheshunt (and such a ticket doesn't exist anyway).

You're correct of course that your ticket should operate the barriers at Tottenham Hale - I would suggest an e-mail to NXEA customer relations should get it resolved. The ticket is priced by them, so asking for it to be referred to the pricing manager might be an idea if you don't get a sensible response at first.

EDIT: John beat me to it! And I hadn't considered that the barrier programming might be incorrect. The barriers are indeed LU responsibility, being at the top of the Victoria line escalators - there's no barrier to the National Rail platforms. Perhaps write an e-mail and send it to both LU and NXEA customer services so that can determine where the problem is. Welcome from me as well

 

[Going South]

I had a batch of advance tickets from Bath Spa to Waltham Cross which were similarly lacking the + symbol and failed to open the gates at Tottenham Hale. They always used to (both have symbol and work), and I note that my tickets for the next couple of weeks have the symbol. I wonder if it had been missed off in the system for a short time.

 

[John @ home]

I had a batch of advance tickets from Bath Spa to Waltham Cross which were similarly lacking the + symbol and failed to open the gates at Tottenham Hale. They always used to (both have symbol and work), and I note that my tickets for the next couple of weeks have the symbol. I wonder if it had been missed off in the system for a short time.

Bath Spa - Waltham Cross is route + Any Permitted (or route + AP Londn Reading) and the '+' marker is needed for the barriers at London terminals.

The '+' marker is not appropriate for a Finsbury Park - Cheshunt route Tottenham Hale Und for the reasons described above. But I agree with A60K that the ticket should operate the barriers at Tottenham Hale.

 

[Mojo]

It is not unknown for tickets to not operate the barriers at intermediate stations where you are breaking your journey, although in this case it is quite surprising as you are not breaking your journey, and HAVE to pass through a gateline in order to change trains.

 

[Paul Kelly]

There are a couple of NXEA-priced fares from Finsbury Park routed TOTTENHM HLE UND to destinations further afield that *do* have the cross-London + marker on them: ELSENHAM ESSEX, STANSTD MFITCHET are the two I can see. Maybe that is suggesting an option for them is travel via Liverpool Street?

 

[John @ home]

JamTin, do you have an Oyster Card?

You can save money on this journey by avoiding Tottenham Hale altogether.

Use the Oyster Card to travel by Victoria Line between Finsbury Park and Seven Sisters at £1.30 per single journey. Then buy Anytime Day Returns Seven Sisters - Cheshunt, which cost £5.30, giving a total return cost of £7.90. This saves 60p on the £8.50 return via Tottenham Hale.

Sometimes changing at Seven Sisters is faster than going via Tottenham Hale. At other times, it's the other way round. There's not much in it.

I've no idea why there is a Tottenham Hale - Cheshunt route Tottenham Hale Und fare but there's no fare allowing a change at Seven Sisters. From Finsbury Park to stations Bruce Grove to Turkey Street have route + Not London fares. That's a new concept to me but is presumably what we should be requesting for Finsbury Park - Cheshunt.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with others that the gates are probably at fault rather than the ticket.

However this does demonstrate further inconstancy regarding ticketing. Does the + sign indicate that it is valid for a cross-London transfer, or does it simply indicate that you can use the tube at some point? It appears to be intended to be the former, however some tickets are priced not to allow cross London transfers yet still have the + and this causes confusion about what the + denotes and confusion regarding similar tickets that do not have the +.

It's like 'Off Peak' can have a totally different meaning for one ticket compared to another, and 'Any Permitted' can offer less routeing options than a supposedly route-specific ticket (that costs more) in some cases, and the fact that you can sometimes break your journey on an outward off peak but sometimes you can't, and... I could go on! There is a lack of consistency, and there is no excuse for this other than laziness and lack of understanding by pricing managers and people within ATOC.

 

[Greenback]

A lot of the expertise on ticket routeing has gone from the industry, and as it becomes ever more fragmented, I can't see where the next generation of ticketing experts are going to coem from, except perhaps from this forum!

 

[John @ home]

A lot of the expertise on ticket routeing has gone from the industry, and as it becomes ever more fragmented

Agreed. Checking back in an old printed National Fares Manual for the London area, I can guess the origin of route '+ Not London'.

I am unable to find route '+ Not London' in NFM 71 (valid 3 January 1999 until further notice). The fares from Finsbury Park to stations Bruce Grove to Turkey Street have route Victoria Line Nth fares instead of + Not London. My guess is that this was changed following complaints that route Victoria Line Nth tickets did not operate the barriers.

 

[clagmonster]

The instructions of the National Routeing Guide state:
"The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

Thus the Maltese cross does not imply validity via London Terminals or via any particular London fare zone, merely that the ticket is valid on the Underground. Therefore, I beleive that the Maltese cross would be appropriate in the route of this ticket.
There is no mention in the routeing guide of tickets without the Maltese cross being valid on the Underground apart from cases where one of the routeing permissions is London. However, there is nothing to mention that where the Maltese Cross is not present or London is not a routeing permission, then travel on the Underground is prohibited. I think the route of the ticket demonstrates the ticket is valid on the Underground though, although a route of +not London would probably be clearer.

 

[John @ home]

The instructions of the National Routeing Guide state:
"The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

Thus the Maltese cross does not imply validity via London Terminals or via any particular London fare zone, merely that the ticket is valid on the Underground.

The position used to be defined in the printed National Fares Manuals. The last one stated

Travel via London
Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via London’ and marked with the symbol †, include the cost of transfer across London by London Underground, DLR or First Capital Connect train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets displaying the ’cross-London’ marker †, are valid for travel between any two of the following stations appropriate to the route of the through rail journey being made.

Aldgate Finsbury Park Queens Park
Amersham Greenwich Richmond
Baker Street Highbury & Islington Seven Sisters
Balham Kensington Olympia Southwark
Bank Kentish Town Stratford
Barking King’s Cross/St Pancras Tottenham Hale
Blackfriars Lancaster Gate Tower Hill
Blackhorse Road Lewisham Upminster
Cannon Street Limehouse Vauxhall
Charing Cross Liverpool Street Victoria
Ealing Broadway London Bridge Walthamstow Ctl
Edgware Road Marylebone Waterloo

A copy of NFM 98 Section A is attached.

This information appears not to be in the public domain at present. Is it still in The Manual?

 

[clagmonster]

Your quote from an old fares manual is paraphrased on the following webpage on the National Rail webste: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/index_custom.html This also links to a very similar list of stations. I think the presence of both Finsbury Park and Tottenham Hale on both lists implies the Maltese cross would be appropriate on this ticket.

 

[A60K]

Your quote from an old fares manual is paraphrased on the following webpage on the National Rail webste: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/index_custom.html This also links to a very similar list of stations. I think the presence of both Finsbury Park and Tottenham Hale on both lists implies the Maltese cross would be appropriate on this ticket.

It's a tricky one - I can see your reasons for saying the Maltese cross would be appropriate, but then there are other journeys where the Maltese cross is not shown, where the journey is not cross-London in the sense that John and I understand it, but where Underground services would have to be used - Ealing Broadway to West Ruislip for example, which is simply routed Any Permitted and not priced for travel via Paddington/Marylebone. When you look at Ealing Broadway to Denham however two routings appear, priced very differently: 'Greenford Und' and '+London'. I still think therefore that the + should not appear on the Finsbury Park to Cheshunt via Tottenham Hale Und ticket.

 

[clagmonster]

I don't really see the journeys as cross-London, more that the Maltese cross signifies validity on the Underground (but as it stands the converse is not true).
In your example of Ealing Broadway to West Ruislip, the Underground leg would be Greenford to either West or South Ruislip. Strangely, neither of these stations appear on the list, so I think in this particular case the cross should not appear with the current information on the National Rail website.
In the Finsbury Park example, I still think the Maltese cross would be appropriate as both stations are on the list. I think a routeing of '+ not Zone U1 Londn' or + not 'London Terminals' or similar would be appropriate. Actually, why is the ticket issued from Finsbury Park rather than Zone U2* Londn?

 

[JamTin]

thanks for all your replies. I'm at work so can't read and reply in detail now but briefly
- the reason I thought a cross was appropriate was because the guard at the station who let me through the barriers said it should have one
- going via seven sisters while cheaper I think is considerably slower as I time my journey to meet the fast train to cheshunt which only takes 8 mins from tot hale
- I used to do this journey several years ago, at which point the ticket I got was definitely valid via both seven sisters and tot hale, so the fact now explicitly states via tot hale seems to be an unwelcome change from before.