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How to make the intercity fare system better.

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TravelDream

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So, to take an example, how would this work on a Euston-Glasgow Pendolino? How would you revise the fares structure? What "add ons" would you offer; how would you implement them; and would they apply to all relevant journeys?

I've already stated in multiple posts who I'd revise the fare structure.

I've also already listed many of the options. Here are some of them:
Save the fare for 24 hours - £x
Reserve your seat - from £x
Pre-book your food and drink with a discount vs onboard - from £x
Pre-book you Wifi with a discount vs onboard - £x
Upgrade to first - £x
Add flexibility (cancel up to X hours before) - £x
Lounge Access - £x
Hire a car in Glasgow - from £x
Book a hotel room in Glasgow - from £x
Book travel insurance - from £x
(The last three earn the company commission of, usually, around 10-15% from hotels/ cars and 25%+ for insurance).

If purchased online, you can hammer these things home with marketing emails even after the purchase. If someone opts out, they can still be sent them in the booking confirmation and X hours/ days until your trip emails.

You started this thread with the title of making intercity fares better, however every single suggestion you have made would make it worse, from a passenger's point it view. How does introducing different charges make it better for anyone?

Worse for who? Experience in multiple industries shows that the public don't actually want bundled prices/fares. They want the flexibility to pick and choose the services they want and need and to benefit from a lower headline price.
For the company, that lower headline price has a big marketing plus.
This is in many many industries. You don't see Volkswagen advertising the price of the top-spec Golf, but the basic no extras one. Or are you arguing they should only sell the top-spec model as it's 'better' for the consumer?
 
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6Gman

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I've already stated in multiple posts who I'd revise the fare structure.

I've also already listed many of the options. Here are some of them:
Save the fare for 24 hours - £x
Reserve your seat - from £x
Pre-book your food and drink with a discount vs onboard - from £x
Pre-book you Wifi with a discount vs onboard - £x
Upgrade to first - £x
Add flexibility (cancel up to X hours before) - £x
Lounge Access - £x
Hire a car in Glasgow - from £x
Book a hotel room in Glasgow - from £x
Book travel insurance - from £x
(The last three earn the company commission of, usually, around 10-15% from hotels/ cars and 25%+ for insurance).

If purchased online, you can hammer these things home with marketing emails even after the purchase. If someone opts out, they can still be sent them in the booking confirmation and X hours/ days until your trip emails.
But is there any likelihood that the £x's you quote will cancel out the reduction in headline fares that you proposed in your opening post?

(After all, if you're letting some people travel for 1p rather than £100/ £200/ £300 you're going to have to sell a lot of coffee or hotel rooms.)
 

TravelDream

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But is there any likelihood that the £x's you quote will cancel out the reduction in headline fares that you proposed in your opening post?

(After all, if you're letting some people travel for 1p rather than £100/ £200/ £300 you're going to have to sell a lot of coffee or hotel rooms.)

I don't get this thing you, and a few other posters, have about coffee replacing fares. Food and drink is just one of many revenue generating opportunities.

On revenue, other industries have found these additional sources of revenue to be highly profitable. The commission examples exceptionally so as ongoing costs are essentially zero. Have you ever noticed how all the air carriers really push this angle hard?

How many people do you think would be traveling for a penny? The answer is hardly any. How many of those paying a penny would be buying a anytime ticket today? Probably zero.
 

6Gman

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I don't get this thing you, and a few other posters, have about coffee replacing fares. Food and drink is just one of many revenue generating opportunities.

On revenue, other industries have found these additional sources of revenue to be highly profitable. The commission examples exceptionally so as ongoing costs are essentially zero. Have you ever noticed how all the air carriers really push this angle hard?

How many people do you think would be traveling for a penny? The answer is hardly any. How many of those paying a penny would be buying a anytime ticket today? Probably zero.
On your first para you still don't explain how (or whether) this upselling will match revenue lost.
I cannot understand your second point.
Yes, some of the 1p passengers may be new customers. But won't some simply be those who currently use cheap Advance tickets?
 

87 027

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Many of the things in that list I would be highly unlikely to pay extra for. For example:

- pre-booked food and drink: airline style hot meal possibly (Monarch did decent meal boxes for around £15-£20), but not for standard commodity fare such as coffee/beer/sandwiches/crisps. Virgin's offerings were fairly threadbare towards the end of the franchise
- WiFi: no (unlimited mobile data plan)
- lounge: no, airports are a different setting as you're generally hanging around for a couple of hours unlike the 'turn up and go' nature of the railway
- car hire/hotel: no, there would be a niggling suspicion of being pushed to what yields the best commission for the railway rather than what is the best deal for the passenger. Booking hotels and cars is rather more straightforward in the UK than abroad where there are advantages in going straight to the car hire desk at an airport
- insurance: what exactly would this cover? Consequential loss for delays?

Things like flexibility and upgrades depend entirely on what is on offer. I always think 'what else could I spend the money on'. For example I have twice declined the offer of an upsell from economy to premium economy on a 9 hour flight as I can think of better uses for £125. I might have been tempted if it was closer to £50
 

6Gman

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Many of the things in that list I would be highly unlikely to pay extra for. For example:

- insurance: what exactly would this cover? Consequential loss for delays?
I remember there used to be little stickers at booking office windows offering travel insurance. Not sure how many such policies were ever sold.

I cannot now remember whether it insured your luggage or your body in the event of an accident!
 

miklcct

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I've already stated in multiple posts who I'd revise the fare structure.

I've also already listed many of the options. Here are some of them:
Save the fare for 24 hours - £x
Reserve your seat - from £x
Pre-book your food and drink with a discount vs onboard - from £x
Pre-book you Wifi with a discount vs onboard - £x
Upgrade to first - £x
Add flexibility (cancel up to X hours before) - £x
Lounge Access - £x
Hire a car in Glasgow - from £x
Book a hotel room in Glasgow - from £x
Book travel insurance - from £x
(The last three earn the company commission of, usually, around 10-15% from hotels/ cars and 25%+ for insurance).

Adding to the previous reply I also won't pay for any of these items above.

I'd rather to have a luxury meal at the station rather than buying "railway bento" on board. Also, major stations (such as London Kings Cross) have shops which sells "railway bento" for taking on board as well if time is really tight.

And for Wifi, train Wifi is crap anyway which never loads anything, as my experience on SWR.

Upgrade to first is meaningless - if I'm willing to travel first class I'd have bought a first class advance anyway.

Lounge access is generally meaningless as if I have time to spare, I'd rather be in the city centre, or at a restaurant for a luxury meal.

And the last 3 (car hiring, hotel room, travel insurance), I have my preferred providers where I'm earning loyalty points there so I will not switch - remember that I don't always travel by train, sometimes by aeroplane and sometimes by coach as well. And only a few specialist travel insurance on the market can cater for my need as I do adventure sports.
 

87 027

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I remember there used to be little stickers at booking office windows offering travel insurance. Not sure how many such policies were ever sold.

I cannot now remember whether it insured your luggage or your body in the event of an accident!
I remember when my Dad first got a Barclaycard in the 1970s that personal injury cover was one of the benefits if you used it to buy train tickets. Booking offices had a "BC" stamp for the purpose and I remember my Dad being quite keen that his tickets were stamped accordingly!

Back to topic, I'm not sure what scope there is for upselling insurance on a GB domestic rail journey as I'm struggling to see what the additional cover would comprise. It's not like an overseas trip where there's the potential for delayed/damaged/lost luggage and medical expenses to consider including emergency repatriation if something serious happens. The airline traveller is more captive than the rail traveller and I don't think the OP has made a very convincing case for showing how what works for aviation translates into something that works for a walk-on domestic railway.

I say this as someone with a strong preference for rail over air travel and indeed not so long ago I travelled from London Euston to Glasgow Central and back in a single day with work for a site visit. I forget exactly how much the ticket cost but I thought at the time that it was very good value.

Of course we could move from a walk-on railway to a more closed system of pre-booking and compulsory reservations only, but that is a whole different debate (and one we've had before e.g. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/modern-railways-lner-and-compulsory-reservations.214382/)
 
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TravelDream

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Many of the things in that list I would be highly unlikely to pay extra for.

And I wouldn't pay for a lot of them either, but a lot of people will.

- insurance: what exactly would this cover? Consequential loss for delays?

The same thing domestic travel insurance covers today. Delays, lost/ stolen luggage and other items, medical benefits (which are more than just what the NHS offers for free in case you don't realise), trip cancellation cover etc. etc.
Companies sell it and people buy it so it must mean something to someone.

Upgrade to first is meaningless - if I'm willing to travel first class I'd have bought a first class advance anyway.

Again there is just a lack of thinking on revenue generation and an ignorance how industry after industry tries to upsell to get as much extra profit as possible.
Take this example. John Smith has bought a standard ticket. 24 hours before the journey, the train company analyses bookings and sees first will be almost empty.
What should the company do?
One with business sense will email John Smith offering him a cheap-ish upgrade to first promoting all of first's benefits.
Maybe John Smith will upgrade and maybe he won't. If he doesn't, the railway has lost nothing. If he does, extra cash.
People who want to travel first will not be put off buying it from the start either. They will either be ignorant of the policy, traveling on company dime where their company's policy allows first rail travel, or will understand that the railway doesn't always send offers like these (for example when loads in first are healthier) and uses algorithms to focus them on customers who are most likely to use this service.

And the last 3 (car hiring, hotel room, travel insurance), I have my preferred providers where I'm earning loyalty points there so I will not switch.

Yes, you do, but millions and millions of people in this country don't. Actually, you're almost certainly in a small minority relatively speaking.
How many people rent cars often enough to collect loyalty points? It can't be that many - certainly not more than the tens of thousands. Car rental loyalty programmes are rubbish anyway.
Hotel loyalty points are more common, but it's still a limited market outside of the corporate world.
On a related note, my parents went on holiday to Dublin not long before Covid 19 (by SailRail you'll all be happy to hear). My mother planned to go into a travel agent to book a hotel in Dublin before I talked her out of it.
 

Starmill

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Take this example. John Smith has bought a standard ticket. 24 hours before the journey, the train company analyses bookings and sees first will be almost empty.
What should the company do?
One with business sense will email John Smith offering him a cheap-ish upgrade to first promoting all of first's benefits.
Maybe John Smith will upgrade and maybe he won't. If he doesn't, the railway has lost nothing. If he does, extra cash.
People who want to travel first will not be put off buying it from the start either.
That particular thing has already been being done for years anyway. Avanti West Coast and LNER have both offered it. This is also the reason so many operators are on seatfrog.
 

87 027

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And I wouldn't pay for a lot of them either, but a lot of people will.
That may be so but without supporting data this is merely an assertion. It would be helpful to have a body of evidence to help quantify what "a lot" translates to in broad financial terms, otherwise such proposals are essentially replacing a reasonably certain revenue stream with a less certain revenue stream. I would expect a reasonably robust business case with scenario modelling and clearly articulated assumptions

The same thing domestic travel insurance covers today. Delays, lost/ stolen luggage and other items, medical benefits (which are more than just what the NHS offers for free in case you don't realise), trip cancellation cover etc. etc.
Companies sell it and people buy it so it must mean something to someone.
Sorry, I just don't see what is proposed and where the revenue arises - some sort of BUPA level of health cover for the window of an outbound and return domestic rail journey? Theft of personal effects such as laptops and iPads from a hotel room during that same travel window?

Again there is just a lack of thinking on revenue generation and an ignorance how industry after industry tries to upsell to get as much extra profit as possible.
Take this example. John Smith has bought a standard ticket. 24 hours before the journey, the train company analyses bookings and sees first will be almost empty.
What should the company do?
One with business sense will email John Smith offering him a cheap-ish upgrade to first promoting all of first's benefits.
Maybe John Smith will upgrade and maybe he won't. If he doesn't, the railway has lost nothing. If he does, extra cash.
I would be tempted to a one-off upgrade for a reasonable price in such a scenario. Essentially you are proposing an extension of 'weekend first' and I can see the attraction, although I also see scope for longer term reputational damage if there is a persistent and repeated pattern of charging high fares to early bookers whilst reserving the right to flood the market with cheap unused surplus capacity at the last minute.

Yes, you do, but millions and millions of people in this country don't. Actually, you're almost certainly in a small minority relatively speaking.
How many people rent cars often enough to collect loyalty points? It can't be that many - certainly not more than the tens of thousands. Car rental loyalty programmes are rubbish anyway.
Hotel loyalty points are more common, but it's still a limited market outside of the corporate world.
On a related note, my parents went on holiday to Dublin not long before Covid 19 (by SailRail you'll all be happy to hear). My mother planned to go into a travel agent to book a hotel in Dublin before I talked her out of it.
How many people book the rail journey first and then think 'oh, I need a hotel, better book that as well'? Surely it's the other way round?
 

yorkie

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I've already stated in multiple posts who I'd revise the fare structure.
Not really; most of the thread is about additional bells & whistles (some of which already exist e.g. first class upgrades and some are not realistic in the opinion of myself and several other members)

You mentioned ditching Off Peak fares and selling more Advance fares, so I can only assume that you are saying the Anytime fare is the only fare retained and everyone else will be on Advance fares.

Do you propose to abolish all walk-up fares, other than Anytime fares, on all flows in Great Britain? Or just for journeys over a certain length?
 

87 027

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Take this example. John Smith has bought a standard ticket. 24 hours before the journey, the train company analyses bookings and sees first will be almost empty.
What should the company do?
This is predicated on the assumption that the railway knows who else has a reservation to travel in first class on that particular service and takes that to represent the totality of the occupancy. It doesn't take into account open and walk-up tickets so, unlike an airline, you can't make the assumption that no reservation = unoccupied seat for the entirety of that train's journey.

We could transition the long distance railway into a reservation-only model, which addresses this problem, but as noted above we are then into a different debate
 
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stuu

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Worse for who? Experience in multiple industries shows that the public don't actually want bundled prices/fares. They want the flexibility to pick and choose the services they want and need and to benefit from a lower headline price.
For the company, that lower headline price has a big marketing plus.
This is in many many industries. You don't see Volkswagen advertising the price of the top-spec Golf, but the basic no extras one. Or are you arguing they should only sell the top-spec model as it's 'better' for the consumer?
All of these changes you propose make things worse for the average traveller. The average traveller, if they are faced with all this nonsense, will just get in their car. That is the competitor for pretty much all UK rail journeys, not planes. People don't have that option for getting to Ibiza, or Krakow or wherever, but they do here. That is why people are prepared to put up with it for flights, but has anyone ever genuinely said they like the choice?

Intercity train companies already offer hotels and hire cars, and different ticket prices based on availability and flexibility. Why do you think they don't do this already?
 

Llanigraham

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And I wouldn't pay for a lot of them either, but a lot of people will.
Would they? The majority of passengers I see using the buffet or trolley are just buying a coffee and a bar of chocloate or crisps. There isn't much profit in those.
The same thing domestic travel insurance covers today. Delays, lost/ stolen luggage and other items, medical benefits (which are more than just what the NHS offers for free in case you don't realise), trip cancellation cover etc. etc.
Companies sell it and people buy it so it must mean something to someone.
Realistically how many people are going to take that up, considering that a lot of people now have travel insurance included with their bank accounts, or hold annual cover anyway.
Again there is just a lack of thinking on revenue generation and an ignorance how industry after industry tries to upsell to get as much extra profit as possible.
Take this example. John Smith has bought a standard ticket. 24 hours before the journey, the train company analyses bookings and sees first will be almost empty.
What should the company do?
One with business sense will email John Smith offering him a cheap-ish upgrade to first promoting all of first's benefits.
Maybe John Smith will upgrade and maybe he won't. If he doesn't, the railway has lost nothing. If he does, extra cash.
That presumes that every passenger has bought his ticket from that operator and has done it using their email address. How is that going to work with people who have bought from (say) the Trainline or any other retailer, or even from a different TOC, or even physcially from a machine or office?
People who want to travel first will not be put off buying it from the start either. They will either be ignorant of the policy, traveling on company dime where their company's policy allows first rail travel, or will understand that the railway doesn't always send offers like these (for example when loads in first are healthier) and uses algorithms to focus them on customers who are most likely to use this service.
See the point above.
Yes, you do, but millions and millions of people in this country don't. Actually, you're almost certainly in a small minority relatively speaking.
That is a bold statement and I would love to see the evidence to support it
How many people rent cars often enough to collect loyalty points? It can't be that many - certainly not more than the tens of thousands. Car rental loyalty programmes are rubbish anyway.
Hotel loyalty points are more common, but it's still a limited market outside of the corporate world.
I would question how many people actually rent cars from a station when travelling anyway. I know that in the past one hire company did have offices at major terminals but closed them down when they didn't get enough business.
 

6Gman

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I've been pondering the idea of pre-booking refreshments and I can see several problems.

When I sit at my laptop going through all my options for travel (reservation? window seat? pre-booked refreshments?) I input what I think I'll want to eat and drink in two days time (am I also asked when during the journey I want this?). This information is then transmitted (in some form) to:
the depot staff who have to provision each service to reflect what's been booked;
the train staff, who then have a list they need to work through - 1150 Order 1; 1200 Orders 2-6; 1215 Orders 7-10 etc etc;

This seems a lot of extra work for a marginal income, and all sorts of potential pitfalls.

And - of course - if I miss my train I also lose my coffee and sandwiches . . .
 

TravelDream

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That is a bold statement and I would love to see the evidence to support it
Ok, so how many people do you think/ know rent a car multiple times per year?

That presumes that every passenger has bought his ticket from that operator and has done it using their email address. How is that going to work with people who have bought from (say) the Trainline or any other retailer, or even from a different TOC, or even physcially from a machine or office?
Thetrainline would still have to offer those options and, just like for airlines, pass on a customers details for them to be sent their ticket. Whilst many tickets on short journeys are bought at offices/ machines, the portion for longer journeys is smaller.

This is predicated on the assumption that the railway knows who else has a reservation to travel in first class on that particular service and takes that to represent the totality of the occupancy. It doesn't take into account open and walk-up tickets so, unlike an airline, you can't make the assumption that no reservation = unoccupied seat for the entirety of that train's journey.
I think the assumption is on such a ticketing model, more long-distance passengers would be on timed tickets and, as such, the railway would have a better idea of how many passengers are expected.

Realistically how many people are going to take that up, considering that a lot of people now have travel insurance included with their bank accounts, or hold annual cover anyway.

Having, in a sad previous life, worked in this sort of area. You'd be surprised.

You mentioned ditching Off Peak fares and selling more Advance fares, so I can only assume that you are saying the Anytime fare is the only fare retained and everyone else will be on Advance fares.

Essentially yes. Retain the current anytime fare as the regulated fare and otherwise use 'advance' style fares which would be the expected norm. Of course it wouldn't be called an advance fare as that's a silly, descriptive name. It would just be a standard where and available until the time of departure where applicable.

That may be so but without supporting data this is merely an assertion. It would be helpful to have a body of evidence to help quantify what "a lot" translates to in broad financial terms, otherwise such proposals are essentially replacing a reasonably certain revenue stream with a less certain revenue stream. I would expect a reasonably robust business case with scenario modelling and clearly articulated assumptions
Yes boss, I will have the market analysis on your desk by 9am tomorrow morning....
In reality, you can just look at sector after sector which has done this to great effect.

Sorry, I just don't see what is proposed and where the revenue arises - some sort of BUPA level of health cover for the window of an outbound and return domestic rail journey? Theft of personal effects such as laptops and iPads from a hotel room during that same travel window?
Zurich sells domestic travel insurance. Here's what they say.

How many people book the rail journey first and then think 'oh, I need a hotel, better book that as well'? Surely it's the other way round?

Maybe it is just me, but I decide on a location first and then check out prices. Flight/ train prices and hotel prices and then decide whether to go there or not.
Other operators have found this type of sales pitch to be highly profitable.
 

miklcct

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I think the assumption is on such a ticketing model, more long-distance passengers would be on timed tickets and, as such, the railway would have a better idea of how many passengers are expected.
Specifically, how do we define long-distance? The railway network in the UK does not have a clear distinction between long distance trains and local trains such that local passengers are sometimes forced to squeeze onto long distance trains.

For example, Bournemouth - Pokesdown is clearly local, but how about to Brockenhurst, Southampton, Winchester, Basingstoke, Woking or London? Which of these are considered long-distance? The only service between Bournemouth and Branksome is on intercity trains as well, how can the railway have an idea how many passengers are expected when local travel are on long-distance trains?
 

tbtc

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I like this part in a thread, where the OP has spent a few posts finding fault with the status quo (and, let's face it, the current ticketing system is a muddle caused by layer upon layer of good intentions and attempts to please different markets, leading to a byzantine mess) - however, it's not so easy to come up with solutions...



Experience in multiple industries shows that the public don't actually want bundled prices/fares. They want the flexibility to pick and choose the services they want and need and to benefit from a lower headline price

So customers/ passengers don't want bundled prices/ fares - they prioritise flexibility instead - great - and your solution to this is...

I've already stated in multiple posts who I'd revise the fare structure.

I've also already listed many of the options. Here are some of them:
Save the fare for 24 hours - £x
Reserve your seat - from £x
Pre-book your food and drink with a discount vs onboard - from £x
Pre-book you Wifi with a discount vs onboard - £x
Upgrade to first - £x
Add flexibility (cancel up to X hours before) - £x
Lounge Access - £x
Hire a car in Glasgow - from £x
Book a hotel room in Glasgow - from £x
Book travel insurance - from £x
(The last three earn the company commission of, usually, around 10-15% from hotels/ cars and 25%+ for insurance).

If purchased online, you can hammer these things home with marketing emails even after the purchase. If someone opts out, they can still be sent them in the booking confirmation and X hours/ days until your trip emails

...oh, wait, your solution is to try to bundle things like wifi/ coffee/ hotel room/ car hire into the ticket price? Isn't that the opposite of what you're saying?

As well as the points that others have made about the problems in selling some of these products alongside the ticket, you've also got to consider that UK rail tickets already provide a lot of "insurance" for free - witness the amounts being spent on taxis for people who've missed connecting trains/ hotel rooms/ getting the ticket price refunded in the event of a delay - the UK rail industry must spend millions of pounds each year on providing this as part of the ticket price (the kind of thing that would probably only be part of top tier insurance if you bought it separately)

So is your idea that we abandon any commitment to pay for taxis/ hotel rooms for passengers caught up in disruption, so we can shave a little bit off the ticket price in the hope that enough people will pay a premium for it as an "add-on"? Otherwise, it'd have to be pretty amazing travel insurance that goes beyond what most rail passengers can expect as "standard"

I don't get this thing you, and a few other posters, have about coffee replacing fares. Food and drink is just one of many revenue generating opportunities.

On revenue, other industries have found these additional sources of revenue to be highly profitable

Yes... because they are working in completely different environments to the railway

If all railway passengers had to arrive at the station at least an hour or two before the train was scheduled to depart, had to surrender all drinks to security staff and only had a very limited range of shops "rail-side" (which were priced in accordance with the captive market) then I dare say you would sell significantly more cups of coffee on board trains than you currently do

But, as people have kept trying to explain, the large number of options at/ nearby every major UK railway station mean you can't "upsell'' as well as airlines can

You might as well point out that Alton Towers can get people to pay through the nose for a cola, who why can't we translate this market to the fairground stalls that set up in city centres each school holiday?

Specifically, how do we define long-distance? The railway network in the UK does not have a clear distinction between long distance trains and local trains such that local passengers are sometimes forced to squeeze onto long distance trains

Agreed - we keep having these threads where people try to cram in some binary notion of trains onto our messy network - often with some fancy Germanic names...

...but the reality is that we have a railway where one service caters to lots of different markets...

...we have 110mph air conditioned EMUs with First Class operating on the southern end of the WCML (350/1s) that have "commuter" doors, so some obsessives class them as being "outer suburban"...

...the UK railway doesn't fit into neat little boxes to please people with OCD...

...there was little logic to BR's branding as far as passengers would have been concerned, with Gatwick - Victoria being "InterCity" but Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Durham - Newcastle apparently didn't serve sufficient cities to gain InterCity branding...

...sometimes a train goes from being the fastest service on the route to the slowest (e.g. a TPE service from Liverpool to Newcastle is the express from Liverpool to York but then the slowest train on the line from York to Newcastle, picking up the "local" stops at Thirsk/ Northallerton/ Chester le Street)...

...it can't all be as easily compartmentalised as flights are, where there's no intermediate stops to worry about - so anyone suggesting that we have one arrangement on "long distance" trains and another on other trains is opening up a huge can of worms (e.g. is Euston - New Street long distance, since the journey time is similar to Cockfosters - Heathrow - or does the West Highland Line get treated like a flagship route?)
 

TravelDream

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So customers/ passengers don't want bundled prices/ fares - they prioritise flexibility instead - great - and your solution to this is...
I think you misunderstand what bundled means.
Bundled in car purchasing terms would mean a car with all the possible options (which wouldn't be options but you get what I mean) and full service package etc. etc. Few people want that.
Bundled airline tickets means the ticket price includes seat selection, baggage, flexiblity on changes/ refunds, meals and drinks etc. etc.. Few people want that.
Well... they want it, but they would much rather have a cheaper headline price and then pick and choose which 'options' they want.

So is your idea that we abandon any commitment to pay for taxis/ hotel rooms for passengers caught up in disruption, so we can shave a little bit off the ticket price in the hope that enough people will pay a premium for it as an "add-on"? Otherwise, it'd have to be pretty amazing travel insurance that goes beyond what most rail passengers can expect as "standard"
Not at all. What would make you think that?
Airlines provide all of that plus several hundred Euros plus compensation if flights are delayed or cancelled and you don't see people saying I don't need travel insurance because of it.

Travel insurance covers a whole range of other things. Lost/ stolen items, cancellation cover if you're sick/ someone dies, money for someone to come visit you if you get ill, hospital benefits, delay benefits etc.

But, as people have kept trying to explain, the large number of options at/ nearby every major UK railway station mean you can't "upsell'' as well as airlines can

And as I explained in a post above. Airports have the same.

Major airports also have a whole range of outlets to purchase food.

Boots charges the same at airports for its food and drink as they do on the high street. WH Smiths travel division is seperate to their high street one, but train station and airport ones are both run by that division and charge the same. Superdrug (Co-op food) charges the same as the Co-op. Greggs in Bristol Airport is the same price as the high street. I have only been to M&S Food at Heathrow, and prices there are the same as the high street. As far as I remember, Starbucks also charges the same at airports as their London prices.
There are places that charge more too of course. Burger King is usually a pound or so more than the high street and Wetherspoons a couple of quid more than their London prices.

Agreed - we keep having these threads where people try to cram in some binary notion of trains onto our messy network - often with some fancy Germanic names...

On what is long-distance and what is regional/ urban/ commuter is a problem not just in this country, but in others too.
My broad feeling is that all 'intercity trains' should fall under such a system (so Cardiff - Newport on GWR would, but Cardiff - Newport on TFW probably wouldn't (arguably the Marches would be IC)), though I realise it isn't always simple (and I realise people will shout me down over this saying I don't know/ understand the British railway system) .
Don't forget, I never said season tickets should be abolished as they serve a very valid purpose and dynamic pricing would arguably be beneficial on such flows encouraging more short-distance travel.
 

6Gman

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Travel insurance covers a whole range of other things. Lost/ stolen items, cancellation cover if you're sick/ someone dies, money for someone to come visit you if you get ill, hospital benefits, delay benefits etc.
The negligible take-up of the insurance offered at railway stations in the past suggests this is not going to be a money spinner.

Lost/stolen items - pretty rare on the railway, particularly items of significant value.
Illness/death cover - if you're on a flexible ticket you get a refund (- £10); if you've got a cheap advance you just write it off.
Visiting if you get ill - how often does that arise? Wouldn't most people just buy a ticket if it arose?
Hospital benefits - this isn't the US you know - hospital care is free, and if they need/choose to transfer you to your home area it costs you nothing.
Delay benefits - you mean Delay Repay?
 

TravelDream

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Lost/stolen items - pretty rare on the railway, particularly items of significant value.
Illness/death cover - if you're on a flexible ticket you get a refund (- £10); if you've got a cheap advance you just write it off.
Visiting if you get ill - how often does that arise? Wouldn't most people just buy a ticket if it arose?
Hospital benefits - this isn't the US you know - hospital care is free, and if they need/choose to transfer you to your home area it costs you nothing.
Delay benefits - you mean Delay Repay?

I think you just don't get it to be honest. Insurance covers more things than you think.

Lost/ stolen items - rare when you fly abroad too. If lost/ stolen by the airline, the airline comepnsates you which isn't the case on the railway.
Illness/death cover - Do people write-off advanced tickets that might cost £100++. Plus there are pre-booked hotels/ excursions etc.
Visiting if you get ill - it rarely happens here or abroad. That's why people take out insurance.
Hospital benefits - these are not to pay the hospital bill....
Delay benefits - If my flight is delayed, I get a hell of a lot more compensation than if my train is (I've been lucky/ unlucky enough to receive free meals/ accommodation and 600 Euros compensation on more than one occasion. Insurance paid out in addition to that.
 

87 027

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Yes boss, I will have the market analysis on your desk by 9am tomorrow morning....
It would aid credibility if the ideas are backed up by some sort of broad workings to show how they will result in a net financial benefit

In reality, you can just look at sector after sector which has done this to great effect.
I don't think it's unreasonable to show how you have thought about the similarities and differences between sectors and whether the conditions that lead to success in other sectors are equally applicable to the railways. Imagine you are up before Claude Littner in The Apprentice - how would you get the seal of approval?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think you just don't get it to be honest. Insurance covers more things than you think.
I followed the Zurich link you posted and got a quote for a weekend break. Premium was £5.10 for 'basic' cover and £9 for 'extra' cover. Are commission levels seriously going to be a moneyspinner for the railway?
 
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Bletchleyite

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I think you just don't get it to be honest. Insurance covers more things than you think.

Lost/ stolen items - rare when you fly abroad too. If lost/ stolen by the airline, the airline comepnsates you which isn't the case on the railway.

The railway can't lose your bag as it is never in the railway's care.

Illness/death cover - Do people write-off advanced tickets that might cost £100++. Plus there are pre-booked hotels/ excursions etc.

Just change the Advances to a different date. Most hotels are changeable even if not refundable.

Visiting if you get ill - it rarely happens here or abroad. That's why people take out insurance.

The cost of visiting domestically is quite low - no need to insure that.

Hospital benefits - these are not to pay the hospital bill....

Never quite saw the point.

Delay benefits - If my flight is delayed, I get a hell of a lot more compensation than if my train is (I've been lucky/ unlucky enough to receive free meals/ accommodation and 600 Euros compensation on more than one occasion. Insurance paid out in addition to that.

Eh? Delay Repay is incredibly generous compared with airline policies. You can get big money on airlines but only with a very long delay that is within their control - EU261 basically exists to financially disincentivise them from overbooking too much.
 

6Gman

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I think you just don't get it to be honest. Insurance covers more things than you think.

Lost/ stolen items - rare when you fly abroad too. If lost/ stolen by the airline, the airline comepnsates you which isn't the case on the railway.
Illness/death cover - Do people write-off advanced tickets that might cost £100++. Plus there are pre-booked hotels/ excursions etc.
Visiting if you get ill - it rarely happens here or abroad. That's why people take out insurance.
Hospital benefits - these are not to pay the hospital bill....
Delay benefits - If my flight is delayed, I get a hell of a lot more compensation than if my train is (I've been lucky/ unlucky enough to receive free meals/ accommodation and 600 Euros compensation on more than one occasion. Insurance paid out in addition to that.
No, I don't get it.

I have travelled extensively across Britain by rail for decades and - like the vast majority of people - have never felt any need to take out travel insurance.

So I find the idea that the railway can generate significant income by offering such insurance cover fanciful.
 

87 027

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And as I explained
But I think many on here feel you haven't explained. You have made unevidenced assertions of "bright ideas" to restructure the fare system and rebalance the railway's receipts between core income and upsellable extras, without anything behind them to show that the ideas have legs. When posters with insight into the nuances of railway financing have probed the realism of these suggestions, you have dismissed such thinking as BR-era dullard mentality. When further pressed on the practicalities of implementation, you have double downed on the "it works for other sectors and you don't understand" line of argument. I don't know what your day job involves, but mine is concerned with analysis and evidence, not just opinion, which is why I have difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff in your arguments, and distinguishing the serious from the speculative.
 

TravelDream

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But I think many on here feel you haven't explained. You have made unevidenced assertions of "bright ideas" to restructure the fare system and rebalance the railway's receipts between core income and upsellable extras, without anything behind them to show that the ideas have legs. When posters with insight into the nuances of railway financing have probed the realism of these suggestions, you have dismissed such thinking as BR-era dullard mentality. When further pressed on the practicalities of implementation, you have double downed on the "it works for other sectors and you don't understand" line of argument. I don't know what your day job involves, but mine is concerned with analysis and evidence, not just opinion, which is why I have difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff in your arguments, and distinguishing the serious from the speculative.

I think I am done with this thread.

It's pretty tiring when people misquote you and say you said something which you didn't say like a school yard bully.

I thought it would be good to have an interesting, very speculative, discussion. Obviously I was wrong.

Thank you to the posters above who truly engaged with the topic even if they vehemently disagreed.
 

87 027

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My idea is that the train companies should just emulate the airlines. Airlines are masters of revenue extraction. They know how much to charge to get the maximum revenue and the introduction of low-cost airlines and the changes mainline ones have made have revolutionized the industry. They know the importance of non-fare revenue. They know the importance of marketing and how 1p fares, which basically nobody gets, gets a ton of marketing and people talking. The railway on the other hand seems stuck in the 1960s....

That's just a basic misunderstanding how airline pricing and true revenue management works. It's far better to have one £180 fare, two £90 fares + £10 seat reservations, one £30 fare + £6.50 meal deal than just that one £200 fare. It's even better to have ten £20 fares than one £200. Why? Better chances of more revenue extraction and upselling.
As a reminder, the above quote is from the post that began the discussion. Speculative ideas are fine and we have some great experts on this forum to critique them. The nature of these things is that people are interested in exploring the ideas further and how they might successfully translate into a beneficial outcome for the railways. Implementation can be orders of magnitude more complicated than the high level idea and we have had a good discussion on this, and coalesced around a conclusion that it probably wouldn't work for the railways at the present time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's pretty tiring when people misquote you

...you have dismissed such thinking as BR-era dullard mentality. When further pressed on the practicalities of implementation, you have double downed on the "it works for other sectors and you don't understand" line of argument.
I invite you to reflect on the following statements:

"The railway on the other hand seems stuck in the 1960s" - 1
"naysayers stuck in a timewarp" - 36
"The railway is very much like the aviation industry of the 80s" - 72
"I also think what we have actually seen is people whose mentalities are stuck in BR era thinking" - 78

"you've totally missed the point" - 4
"I think you don't get how airline fares work" - 49
"And I'll say again that you don't understand the modern airline revenue model" - 64, 68
"I am trying to explain that ancillary revenue is a core part of the airline revenue model. I think some people don't quite get quite how much of an airline's revenue comes from it" - 76
"I think you misunderstand what bundled means" - 111
"I think you just don't get it to be honest" - 113
 
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miklcct

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One of the advantage of the railway is the ability to overload. This never happens in air travel.

If this advantage is removed, people may well be forced to drive their own car anyway because they can no longer make last-minute trips despite the speed advantage of train vs car.
 
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