How to increase capacity on the Birmingham-Derby line

[HSTEd]

Once HS2 is done there will only be the Connect trains and a GA style semi-intercity service to Nottingham. You'll still need to run relatively fast trains to Leicester and putting 2 more tph on Birmingham-Derby will make the upgrade even more expensive given it will require ever more expensive infrastructure interventions.

I'm a little confused by this statement.

As it stands, HS2 will do nothing for the MML.
However, if a connection from HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line is built, it may be possible to get traffic out of St Pancras and into a hopefully higher capacity HS2 core.

In that situation, only a vestigial service to Leicester or Nottingham would remain in St Pancras alongside the Corby EMU.

EDIT:
I make the distance required to connect the stub for the Eastern leg to the line through Tamworth at about 2.5km of additional route.

 

[The Planner]

I cant really see the argument for sending HS2 trains to Notts, given that will become very expensive, very quickly for very little journey time or capacity benefit. The Castle Donnington line would however be useful for shortening Birmingham-Nottingham journeys, meaning that they would be under an hour post electrification. Under no circumstances can I see more than 2tph using the line.

You can get close to an hour now with diesel if it were non stop. I doubt wires are going to get you sub 1 hour with a Tamworth, Burton or both stop.

 

[Brubulus]

You can get close to an hour now with diesel if it were non stop. I doubt wires are going to get you sub 1 hour with a Tamworth, Burton or both stop.

Castle Dorrington is currently 40-50mph, were it to become mostly a 70-85 mph route, that would likely cut a few minutes off. Birmingham-Stenson with calls at Tamworth and Burton is 31 minutes with Voyager timings and short dwells. Long Eaton-Nottingham can be done in 14 mins. Assuming that the train is able to maintain an average speed of 60mph between Stenson and Long Eaton, that gives a 13 minute journey time, meaning total journey time would be 58 mins.

 

[HSTEd]

If I'm interpreting this correctly, I think going from Wilnecote to Nottingham via Castle Donnington will be around 10 minutes faster than via Derby, so around 45 minutes.
That suggests a Euston-Nottingham journey time of around 85 minutes.

So it should beat the MML service by a few minutes for the fast.

So you could run 2tph Sheffield vs Derby and 2tph Nottingham avoiding Derby via HS2.

The residual MML service would then be something like 2tph Derby via Leicester and 2tph Lincoln/Grimsby/Nottingham via Leicester (take over the Grimsby/Lincoln-Leicester trains). Multiple additional stops though, obiviously.


Of course doing this would require that a 320kph capable train capable of off wire operation was available. Probably battery given the timescales.
EDIT:

If electrification eventually reaches Leicester, you get a lot more radical and break all the rump MML trains there, and just set up a Class 360 service along the lines of Corby.

 

[Brubulus]

If I'm interpreting this correctly, I think going from Wilnecote to Nottingham via Castle Donnington will be around 10 minutes faster than via Derby, so around 45 minutes.
That suggests a Euston-Nottingham journey time of around 85 minutes.

So it should beat the MML service by a few minutes for the fast.

So you could run 2tph Sheffield vs Derby and 2tph Nottingham avoiding Derby via HS2.

The residual MML service would then be something like 2tph Derby via Leicester and 2tph Lincoln/Grimsby/Nottingham via Leicester (take over the Grimsby/Lincoln-Leicester trains). Multiple additional stops though, obiviously.


Of course doing this would require that a 320kph capable train capable of off wire operation was available. Probably battery given the timescales.

If you're going to give Grimsby a London service, extend the 1tp2h on the ECML from Lincoln and get rid of the EMR service, which is 1tp2h.

Putting 4tph thorough Stenson would require grade separation, extensive 4 tracking and likely cost much more than electrification and a basic remodelling of Burton. 2tph is more manageable, and would enable a half hourly Birmingham-Nottingham service in 58 mins, while there could be an hourly Nottingham in 90 service on the MML. You could even have Notts in 90 half hourly and a stopper to Notts/Derby half hourly.

 

[Palmerston]

If HS2 East was built as far as the MML, even without building the Parkway station, that would provide a lot, including a huge reduction on the Bham to Nottingham journey. Maybe it will never happen, or not for a long time, but it would have a lot of benefits. It also looks a fairly simple route, if trains just used existing lines into Derby and Nottingham.

 

[Brubulus]

If HS2 East was built as far as the MML, even without building the Parkway station, that would provide a lot, including a huge reduction on the Bham to Nottingham journey. Maybe it will never happen, or not for a long time, but it would have a lot of benefits. It also looks a fairly simple route, if trains just used existing lines into Derby and Nottingham.

If anything, building HS2
East would increase journey times instead of reducing them compared to a link to Derby.
East Midlands Parkway - Wilnecote would be around 28 miles. Assuming an average speed of 120mph, that would take 14 minutes. Then it takes 10 minutes to reach Derby from East Midlands Parkway. So total journey time to Derby - 24 minutes.
On the other hand Wilnecote-Derby is 18 mins nonstop, so 6 minutes faster than via East Mids Parkway.

 

[chris2]

If HS2 east was built, wouldn't you assume 200mph line speed over that section?

 

[The Planner]

If HS2 east was built, wouldn't you assume 200mph line speed over that section?

Not necessarily, depends on what speed can be attained and how long for.

 

[Zomboid]

If HS2 east was built, wouldn't you assume 200mph line speed over that section?

It's not going to average 200mph over that section, but if it did 28 miles at 200mph will take 8.4 minutes, and then add 10 minutes to get to Derby and you've still not beaten the time via Burton.

Obviously by connecting to the Burton line you haven't got Nottingham onto HS2, but you have freed up paths on the MML that more and faster Nottingham - St Pancras trains could run in.

 

[Palmerston]

I may be missing something, but the fastest trains I can see from Birmingham to Derby are 35 minutes. The Integrated Rail Plan said Birmingham to Nottingham would be 26 mins (down from 71). It didn't quote Bham-Derby but it looks like a similar journey length on existing track so I assume similar to the Nottingham timing.

As ever, there are people in this forum who know more than me so happy to be corrected.

 

[HSTEd]

I may be missing something, but the fastest trains I can see from Birmingham to Derby are 35 minutes. The Integrated Rail Plan said Birmingham to Nottingham would be 26 mins (down from 71). It didn't quote Bham-Derby but it looks like a similar journey length on existing track so I assume similar to the Nottingham timing.

As ever, there are people in this forum who know more than me so happy to be corrected.

I believe the comparison is with simply connecting the stub meant for HS2 East near Kingsbury to the Derby-Birmingham line near Wilnecote. It would only require about 2500m of route to do so.
The HS2 approach to Curzon Street is far faster than the conventional approach to New Street.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But if 6tph are still available, it's likely that a connector service to at least Derby will be kept (does Leicester need a Sheffield service really? It doesn't have Manchester or Leeds) - - - - or more calls at Bedford are possible.

Leicester - Sheffield could be served by a XC route via EWR instead of New Street ie (somewhere further north) - Sheffield - Leicester - Bedford - Oxford - Swindon - West Country or S Wales

 

[cle]

Leicester - Sheffield could be served by a XC route via EWR instead of New Street ie (somewhere further north) - Sheffield - Leicester - Bedford - Oxford - Swindon - West Country or S Wales

It's not far off the Nottingham-Bristol proposal, but maybe it could be an X set up - with alternate Notts/Sheffield - maybe with alternating Bristol/Cardiff too - knowing than Nottingham-Cardiff is already a thing, Sheffield-Cardiff might be the combo! 2 hourly.

 

[Zomboid]

I don't see why you wouldn't try to keep a Sheffield - St Pancras train.

The minimal changes to the current timetable way to do it would be to divert the existing Sheffield fast to Nottingham (one stop to St Pancras at Leicester) and retain the existing slower service to Sheffield to provide connectivity from stations beyond Derby through to Kettering etc, as well as a cheaper but slower option for Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby to London.

That would mean fitting another train in between Sheffield and Derby, so maybe it won't easily fit.

 

[cle]

There is talk of another Notts-Leeds so clearly they think it can be done.

I agree a slower Sheffield connector service would be useful, esp with a Bedford call.

 

[Ben427]

Euston is not where I and many others want to go in London. Any time saving to London from Derby is lost when I then have to get to St Pancras for Eurostar or HS1 to Kent.
Derby/Nottingham and Leicester still need MML fast services to London.

I think we are forgetting that HS2 was about relieving the WCML. Taking on services to Sheffield Leeds and York was about avoiding another HS line to relieve the ECML and saving money

HS2 was about improving connectivity across the country, trying to improve the economic imbalance that exists in the UK

From a rail point of view it relieves the WCML but despite being a piece of rail infrastructure, it is not purely a rail project

 

[may032]

HS2 was about improving connectivity across the country, trying to improve the economic imbalance that exists in the UK

From a rail point of view it relieves the WCML but despite being a piece of rail infrastructure, it is not purely a rail project

It was originally about relieving the WCML. Then it became a wider holistic levelling up thing, before being pruned back to being a south of Rugby relief line.

 

[Sonik]

I don't see why you wouldn't try to keep a Sheffield - St Pancras train.

That would mean fitting another train in between Sheffield and Derby, so maybe it won't easily fit.

It's the Spondon section that's the main problem IMO; north of Derby is much more sparsely populated.

Derby-Notts is only about 15-20 mins but very infrequent (IIRC one stopper per hour) because expresses eat paths, resulting in very low modal share on what arguably should be a metro-style route as it's well populated, and has lots of development in the corridor. London to Derby/Sheffield via HS2/Burton can relieve it (note though, that a HS2 connection to EMP, as proposed in the IRP, does not).

The only real missing link then is Derby - MML south (unless indirectly via Notts). That's why I suggested something via Donnington & EMP, but perhaps that's a bit ambitious, since Chesterfield and further north have Erewash services to Notts, for a fairly direct connection to MML destinations south.

 

[Zomboid]

I would imagine that north of Derby most stations are served by Matlock trains. But with there being 4 tracks between Clay Cross and Chesterfield to allow for some overtaking I'd like to think that you'd manage an hourly pattern of 2 HS2, 2 XC, 1 Matlock and 1 St Pancras semi fast.

I've not missed anything there have I? I know there's some stuff coming up the Erewash as well to fit in.

 

[Nottingham59]

there's some stuff coming up the Erewash as well to fit in.

It's quite busy through Chesterfield. There's 1tph Northern Leeds-Nottm, and 1tph EMR to Nottm-Liverpool in addition to the 4tph from Derby. And quite a bit or freight, mostly via Toton.

Much busier between Dore and Sheffield though.

 

[Sonik]

Much busier between Dore and Sheffield though.

Treeton route has much potential as a bypass (e.g by restoring four-tracking) perhaps even connecting with fast routes to Leeds & York. Chesterfield has plenty space for platforms and Rotherham is getting a new station. So Sheffield could easily therefore become a loop off the main, much like Northampton between Rugby and MK.

Controversial suggestion, but it would open many possibilities, because Sheffield approaches are the main constraint on the whole line, especially going north. Southbound, there are heavy freights from Buxton & Hope.

Direct trains are often preferred (with London service in particular being a political football) but these days with travel apps showing many possible connections, frequency is much more useful IMO.

I would imagine that north of Derby most stations are served by Matlock trains.

Yes, it's essentially an hourly commuter service into Derby/Notts + once-a-day each way Belper - Sheffield

 

[brad465]

If Kingsbury remains in long-term use, this area could do with 4-tracking, or at the very least a segregated reversing loop, so freight shunting into the yard doesn't block the mainline.

Earlier today I got first hand experience of this, where the XC train I was on had to sit in the Kingsbury area while an oil train reversed into the Kingsbury Oil sidings. Are there any plans to try and address this particular bottleneck?

 

[The Planner]

Earlier today I got first hand experience of this, where the XC train I was on had to sit in the Kingsbury area while an oil train reversed into the Kingsbury Oil sidings. Are there any plans to try and address this particular bottleneck?

Plenty of plans have been drawn up, nothing that passes a BCR test. Issue is that it would need to create extra paths which wouldn't really do.

 

[BerkshireRails]

This would relieve lots of capacity to New St at very little extra cost.

This is very much a fantasy; however, how would you do it if it were to happen?

I would double-track the Redditch Branch, redo the quad track between Kings Norton & Barnet Green to be paired by use rather than by direction, build a tunnel between Kings Norton/Soho and Dudderston for Cross City and Chase Line services, with new deep level platforms. New turnback sidings at Dudderston and reuse of yhe Vauxhall Goods. Line speed would be 60mph, with ETCS L2, platforms would be built to 1.2m to have level boarding with the 730s and able to accommodate a 10 car 730/2.

Line renaming Kings Norton to Barnet Green,

Up Gloucester Slow->Up Gloucester Fast
Up Gloucester Fast->Down Gloucester Fast
Down Gloucester Fast->Up Gloucester Slow
Down Gloucester Slow->Down Gloucester Slow

View attachment 186468

Line renames Dudderston area,
Down Vauxhall Goods->Down Vauxhall
Up Vauxhall Goods->Down Crossrail
Down Vauxhall->Up Crossrail
Up Vauxhall->Up Vauxhall.

View attachment 186467

Service frequency,
4tph Chase Line (Wolverhampton to Walsall),
4tph Cross City Line (Bromsgrove to Litchfield Trent Valley),
4tph Cross City Line (Redditch to Four Oaks),
4tph Cross City Line (Longcross to Dudderston).

This is a more expensive option however it would enable Metro services to be removed from the current New Street which may help with Birmingham to Derby line capacity.

Electrification will need to go further south of Bromsgrove (plus include the Barnt Green fast lines) to make Birmingham-Derby electrification well-used. If it goes through to Bristol Parkway and Filton Bank gets done in a separate programme, electric trains can run from Bristol all the way to Sheffield*/Manchester, then further north if other infills are done. If the Chepstow line were electrified then XC EMUs are possible here as well, but if not BEMUs should work if they only run off the juice between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Jct.

*On completion of MML electrification.

If Kingsbury remains in long-term use, this area could do with 4-tracking, or at the very least a segregated reversing loop, so freight shunting into the yard doesn't block the mainline.

I reckon based on messing around with an IET in Train Sim Classic it would be possible to do Birmingham New Street to Bristol Temple Meads in under an hour calling at Worcester Park, Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway, with electrification and 125mph between Bromsgrove and Yatton apart from through Cheltenham Spa.

 

[London Trains]

I reckon based on messing around with an IET in Train Sim Classic it would be possible to do Birmingham New Street to Bristol Temple Meads in under an hour calling at Worcester Park, Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Parkway, with electrification and 125mph between Bromsgrove and Yatton apart from through Cheltenham Spa.

I don't think you could do it in an hour with a diversion down to south west London and back!

 

[brad465]

Plenty of plans have been drawn up, nothing that passes a BCR test. Issue is that it would need to create extra paths which wouldn't really do.

I see, presumably other work that, all else being equal, would enable more paths, would need to be done to make this particular location in need of upgrading.

 

[The Planner]

I see, presumably other work that, all else being equal, would enable more paths, would need to be done to make this particular location in need of upgrading.

Midlands Rail Hub could unlock it as any released capacity at Kingsbury just runs into Water Orton and Castle Bromwich issues.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I don't think you could do it in an hour with a diversion down to south west London and back!

Is it only a 90 mile run. So it shouldn't be two hard to keep a high enough average speed to do it in an hour.

 

[The Planner]

Is it only a 90 mile run. So it shouldn't be two hard to keep a high enough average speed to do it in an hour.

How are you finding 30 minutes out of the schedule for this when you consider south Birmingham and the section from Yate down to Temple Meads?