How to encourage bus use?

[alex17595]

being able to find fares before I travel would be useful

 

[radamfi]

Arguably London buses are allowed to run early, because routes defined as 'high frequency' (which are most routes) have to maintain even headways rather than a fixed timetable. Controllers will tell drivers to stop for a while if there are big gaps in service.

 

[anthony263]

The welsh government introduced various bus schemes where they helped subsidy and increase in the frequency of services until the services built up enough patronage to be run commercially.

Stagecoach have increase the frequencies on services 120/130 Blaenrhondda/Treherbert - Treorchy - Porth - Pontypridd - Caerphilly to every 20 minutes each giving a bus every 10 minutes between Treorchy & Pontypridd/Caerphilly. Stagecoach surprisinly took this decision themselves and are not receiving any subsidy so I do hope it pays off which it does look to be doing so.

Of course the whole farce with the welsh government funding bus services is not helping bus operators. Next month a lot of bus services around the Vale of Glamorgan area's will be getting withdrawn with the councils scrambling to find other operators or modify contracts.

The whole Trawscymru network needs furth improvment including a later service from Cardiff to Newtown after 1630 as the last bus which does the full trip from Cardiff is at 1420.

New services to the network is a must along with the introduction of thr Ibus system.

Maybe I should perhaps go into business as a bus operator
I know of some gaps in the market which I could exploite which I wont list : )

 

[Deerfold]

Arguably London buses are allowed to run early, because routes defined as 'high frequency' (which are most routes) have to maintain even headways rather than a fixed timetable. Controllers will tell drivers to stop for a while if there are big gaps in service.

Indeed - Bus control in London is unique in the country. Various things are expected which are frowned on by Traffic Commisioners in other parts of the country.

Any hi-frequency (5bph+) route has an emphasis on regular service - so if buses need to run early or be turned before the end of a trip to plug a gap then that happens.

On low frequency routes the emphasis is on running to time - to the extent that if a bus is as much as 5 minutes early it's deemed not to have run and so won't be paid for. Between 1 and 5 minutes early it's deemed to be "early" which incurs a smaller penalty.

 

[90019]

I'd say there are no excuses for running early!

When you find that you're running early, there are certain places where you can't just pull in at a stop to wait your time. On the routes I drive, there are quite a few places around the city like this.

The main example that comes to mind for me is the East end of Princes Street. You cannot sit and wait your time anywhere between Frederick Street and North Bridge during the day, as you would bring the East end to a grinding halt within a matter of minutes (it manages to do it without anyone waiting time usually several times a day), which normally takes 20-30 minutes to clear.

 

[jon0844]

Arguably London buses are allowed to run early, because routes defined as 'high frequency' (which are most routes) have to maintain even headways rather than a fixed timetable. Controllers will tell drivers to stop for a while if there are big gaps in service.

Or annoyingly, if there's a large gap in the other direction, they'll turf everyone out and get the bus going the other way!

Certainly when you start saying 'every nn minutes' on the timetable, you don't have to worry about a bus running early or late. You then have a turn up and go style service, which is the most favourable of all - but hardly likely outside of big towns.

We have buses around here that advertise 'up to every 10 minutes' which I always read as being that some buses are even more frequent (but no, they don't mean that) but still operate to a timetable.

I agree that knowing the fares in advance is yet another barrier to remove to get people on buses.

 

[starrymarkb]

I you sure it's a beaver and not a mole?

Having seen a guy in a costume doing skits on the LCD screens, it's def a Beaver... The costume guy was also out in the square on one occasion while I was over there

LVB also sell a cuddly one too, his name is Willi

 

[radamfi]

Certainly when you start saying 'every nn minutes' on the timetable, you don't have to worry about a bus running early or late. You then have a turn up and go style service, which is the most favourable of all - but hardly likely outside of big towns.

We have buses around here that advertise 'up to every 10 minutes' which I always read as being that some buses are even more frequent (but no, they don't mean that) but still operate to a timetable.

I'm somewhat confused as to what the requirements are when services outside London are advertised as "at frequent intervals". In Greater Manchester, for example, a large number of routes have "at frequent intervals not less than every 10 minutes" which crept into timetables over the last decade. The 192 service has something like "0430 and frequently until 0300" on Fridays. On another forum, someone was complaining about this in timetables and a reply from someone knowledgeable was:

I suppose in a way it keeps timetables tidy. Having buses at a multitude of weird timings would make it difficult for a potential passenger to remember – at least by saying no more than 10 minutes tells the passenger that they wouldn’t have to wait long and means they don’t have to remember several individual times.

Also, if you look at some services, they may leave say 8 minutes apart at one end, but due to the way traffic builds up could arrive at the other end 10 minutes apart. However by using the “and frequent intervals of not more than 10 minutes”, the customer at least knows that on the vast majority of occasions they should not need to wait for more than 10 minutes for a bus.

The point of timetables showing the first few journeys then later pm journeys would be because buses would be less frequent at these times – even a gap of 11 minutes would have to be shown, even if it was say 0700 and frequent…. 1600 1611 and…. 1811.

The “high frequency” aspect was introduced by traffic commissioners anyway – they’re happy as long as there are at least 6 buses per hour running every 10 minutes or better on the vast majority of occasions!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

My biggest bugbear about bus travel is how hard it is to find ticket prices. My local operator has mases of publicity about their daily and weekly prices, but it is impossible to find the price of a simple A-B single ticket. Combine this with the fear that the driver won't take a fiver/tenner because he'll 'want the correct fare', which of course is impossible to find out in advance, and it becomes an offputting problem.

I don't understand how simple fares matrixes can't be put into all company websites. Simple drop down menus with 'from' and 'to', and there's the fare. Simple.

often because one return trip unless it's very short journey (i.e. less than a mile) would be more expensive than a (local) day ticket at 4 pound summat ... they want you to buy a day ticket

 

[transmanche]

Arguably London buses are allowed to run early, because routes defined as 'high frequency' (which are most routes) have to maintain even headways rather than a fixed timetable. Controllers will tell drivers to stop for a while if there are big gaps in service.

The Maintenance of Headway - the guiding mantra of the good, old-fashioned LT bus inspector!

Yes, I'd agree that is the best solution for high-frequency services - and it's because they don't publish specific times at bus stops for those routes, just the service frequency. (It's here that you rely on Countdown for accurate information.)

So on TfL route W7, the timetable says something like 'every 3 minutes' in the morning peak, 'every 6 minutes' off-peak daytime and 'every 10 minutes' in the evening. I think it's only for journeys at the start and end of service where specific times are quoted - but there's no excuse for running the last bus early!

 

[Deerfold]

I'm somewhat confused as to what the requirements are when services outside London are advertised as "at frequent intervals". In Greater Manchester, for example, a large number of routes have "at frequent intervals not less than every 10 minutes" which crept into timetables over the last decade. The 192 service has something like "0430 and frequently until 0300" on Fridays. On another forum, someone was complaining about this in timetables and a reply from someone knowledgeable was:

Outside of London, a detailed timetable must be registered with the Traffic commissioner and kept to. The example above is simply to reduce the complexity and size of the timetable.

On the 192 with its multiple operators the timetable is actually very complicated with the different operators all having different (but high) frequencies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Maintenance of Headway - the guiding mantra of the good, old-fashioned LT bus inspector!

Yes, I'd agree that is the best solution for high-frequency services - and it's because they don't publish specific times at bus stops for those routes, just the service frequency. (It's here that you rely on Countdown for accurate information.)

So on TfL route W7, the timetable says something like 'every 3 minutes' in the morning peak, 'every 6 minutes' off-peak daytime and 'every 10 minutes' in the evening. I think it's only for journeys at the start and end of service where specific times are quoted - but there's no excuse for running the last bus early!

If you want actual schedules most are at http://www.londonbusroutes.net/timetables.htm
but as said before the controllers are more concerned with regularity of routes than these timings - on a perfect day these are what will run. The 521 briefly gets up to every 2 minutes in the morning peak (with an 0827 and an 0828 from Waterloo).

 

[bb21]

Difficulty in finding information on single fares is not a new thing. This has always been the case for many years (except where a flat fare is charged). Some municiples used to advertise their fares or make the faretables available online, but it has always been difficult to find information from ex-NBC companies. There was an opinion piece (I think by Andrew Braddock but not entirely sure) a couple of years back in Buses about this.

It may have something to do with the fact that faretables for county operators' routes could be extremely complicated and before the advent of the internet, there is no real way to make them available without incurring additional cost which were seen as unnecessary. One could, of course, always enquire over the telephone. Another aspect was possibly competition, especially since 1986, as faretables were seen as some sort of business secret.

There is no reason these days why faretables cannot be published, even if just as simple scans, and made available online. However it has never been a British thing to do this AFAIK so resistence to change is probably another main reason.

 

[radamfi]

Outside of London, a detailed timetable must be registered with the Traffic commissioner and kept to. The example above is simply to reduce the complexity and size of the timetable.

So you don't agree with the quote that says that 'frequent intervals' was the idea of the TCs and they are happy if 6 buses run per hour running every 10 or better most of the time?

On the 192 with its multiple operators the timetable is actually very complicated with the different operators all having different (but high) frequencies.

The 192 only has one operator now. Even Stagecoach's Magic Bus has been withdrawn.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/13-0746 Bus Times 192 v2.pdf

 

[Deerfold]

So you don't agree with the quote that says that 'frequent intervals' was the idea of the TCs and they are happy if 6 buses run per hour running every 10 or better most of the time?

I missed that - it looks like I'm out of date now for services outside London.

The 192 only has one operator now. Even Stagecoach's Magic Bus has been withdrawn.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/13-0746 Bus Times 192 v2.pdf

Ah yes, it's been a while since I've been a frequent visitor there - looks like most buses are on the 42/142/157 now (http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/13-0103 Bus Times 42 142.pdf).

 

[WelshBluebird]

My main bugbear with buses is tickets.
Specifically two things.

1. The lack of information available for tickets (mainly singles and returns) in advance of travel.
2. The lack of knowledge from some bus drivers of what tickets are accepted. It is simply not acceptable that I have to bring up the plusbus website on my phone and then have to convince the driver that he is supposed to accept the ticket.

 

[radamfi]

Ah yes, it's been a while since I've been a frequent visitor there - looks like most buses are on the 42/142/157 now (http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/13-0103 Bus Times 42 142.pdf).

For some reason, the 192 corridor has been largely devoid of competition apart from a couple of very high profile attacks. In the early days of deregulation, there was severe competition on many routes but not on the 192 route apart from a brief period when the Bee Line Buzz Company ran their 'City Sprint' service from Middleton to Stockport. Bee Line had mostly concentrated on winding estate routes but this was meant to be the first of many 'direct' main road routes. Before long, Bee Line was sold to Ribble and shortly afterwards closed down the Bee Line network.

The 192 continued to be run exclusively by GM Buses until Stagecoach decided to try and destabilise the company before privatisation by running a brand new fleet of Volvo single deckers against the life expired double deckers run by GM Buses with very low fares. The Volvo B6s were quickly replaced by bigger B10Ms. GM Buses retaliated by competing on the X43 to Burnley using their Charterplan coach fleet with silly 99p fares. Stagecoach were not initially successful in buying GM Buses South as it was sold to the employees. The Stagecoach operation was sold to Finglands. Of course, Stagecoach ended up buying GM Buses South from the employees so Stagecoach ended up running the main 192 service and the Finglands service ended shortly afterwards.

Stagecoach have kept the route to themselves ever since apart from the well known UK North incursion a few years ago.

 

[Statto]

For some reason, the 192 corridor has been largely devoid of competition apart from a couple of very high profile attacks. In the early days of deregulation, there was severe competition on many routes but not on the 192 route apart from a brief period when the Bee Line Buzz Company ran their 'City Sprint' service from Middleton to Stockport. Bee Line had mostly concentrated on winding estate routes but this was meant to be the first of many 'direct' main road routes. Before long, Bee Line was sold to Ribble and shortly afterwards closed down the Bee Line network.

The 192 continued to be run exclusively by GM Buses until Stagecoach decided to try and destabilise the company before privatisation by running a brand new fleet of Volvo single deckers against the life expired double deckers run by GM Buses with very low fares. The Volvo B6s were quickly replaced by bigger B10Ms. GM Buses retaliated by competing on the X43 to Burnley using their Charterplan coach fleet with silly 99p fares. Stagecoach were not initially successful in buying GM Buses South as it was sold to the employees. The Stagecoach operation was sold to Finglands. Of course, Stagecoach ended up buying GM Buses South from the employees so Stagecoach ended up running the main 192 service and the Finglands service ended shortly afterwards.

Stagecoach have kept the route to themselves ever since apart from the well known UK North incursion a few years ago.

Quite strange why there has been not much competition on the 192 over the years considering that's a major route down the A6, think the last spat was the reincarnated GM Buses/UK North one. The Wilmslow Road one is the operators are mainly going for the Students as the University & Halls Of Residence which are on the same Road.

 

[Antman]

Basic comforts like air con and double glazed windows would help, nothing worse than bus travel on a damp day when all the windows mist up.

I visited Edinburgh recently and although I don't know the city very well I found Lothain Buses very easy to use with plenty of useful publicity available, a few operators could learn some lessons there.