How to appeal a Penalty Fare in style

[ian1944]

More to the point, there are no students at All Souls.

There are a variety of postgraduate fellows, most commonly Examination Fellows who have to pass some written papers and a subsequent viva to be accepted. My respect for the place has just increased when I saw that Harold Wilson wasn't accepted.

 

[Waverley125]

Really there are some jobsworth TTIs on here. Can only see their rulebook and not the bigger picture.

People make mistakes, like leaving a railcard at home. Massive penalty fares just mean they won't take the train next time - the PF revenue is wiped out by the lost custom in the long run.

Procedure should be simple - issue a PF, and if a valid railcard for the purchased ticket can be produced within 30 days, rescind the PF. People who legitimately forgot don't get hurt and see some customer service, people who fare dodge get PF'd.

Also for this particular case, the guy has bought himself a lot of public sypmathy by going to the trouble of writing the poem - enforce the PF and it just looks like the railway is a bunch of jobsworths with no sense of humour.

Most people have neither the time, inclination or ability to do as this chap has, so there's no problem letting him off.

 

[Oswyntail]

....But, until that's done, treat your railcard as being as important as a passport or carrying your wallet, mobile phone, front door keys etc.

Hands up all those on here who have never forgotten any of those? No one? OK then

Really there are some jobsworth TTIs on here. Can only see their rulebook and not the bigger picture.

People make mistakes, like leaving a railcard at home. Massive penalty fares just mean they won't take the train next time - the PF revenue is wiped out by the lost custom in the long run.

Procedure should be simple - issue a PF, and if a valid railcard for the purchased ticket can be produced within 30 days, rescind the PF. People who legitimately forgot don't get hurt and see some customer service, people who fare dodge get PF'd.....

What?!! Simple common sense on here?!! You'll get yourself banned.

 

[Parallel]

Seems a bit mean of the guard not to let him excess on the train to a non-railcard fare, but I suppose that's policy too, or everyone would buy discounted tickets and say they'd forgotten their card if they got caught.

This happened on an Arriva train I took a couple of weeks ago. Chap said he forgot his railcard, the guard excessed his ticket and then sold him the correct one - He ended up paying about £70 more. My bet is that he had bought a cheap advance ticket with his railcard online, and obviously a walk-on fare is a lot more.

I don't understand the whole "forget your railcard" thing - Mine never needs to leave my wallet, so the only time I'd forget it I would have also forgot my bank card, train tickets, ID, money etc...

 

[thelongestroad]

In the article he is quoted...

"I’d forgotten my Young Person’s Railcard at home, but instead of allowing me to pay the excess (as I’ve been able to do several times before)"

Seemingly he didn't learn his lesson last time so perhaps he will this time... I hope the IPFAS take note of that stupid comment.

 

[transmanche]

Seemingly he didn't learn his lesson last time so perhaps he will this time... I hope the IPFAS take note of that stupid comment.

Did you consider that he thought that paying the excess was the extent of the penalty - that he wasn't aware he could be liable to a penalty fare?

 

[jon0844]

Hands up all those on here who have never forgotten any of those? No one? OK then

I've forgotten my mobile phone before. Noticed at train station on way to work, and went home to get it. No way was I going the day without it!

I've also forgotten my wallet, but always been okay as it's been when I am with someone else who has then helped me out.

Never left keys at home, as I can't lock the front door without keys, and so far I've never forgotten my passport. Although I don't have my passport with me all the time, I travel enough that it's second nature to get it before any international travel.

Naturally I'm now going to forget it on the next one.

I actually got a partner (network) card for my wife today, and it was given to me in a ticket wallet. Don't all railcards get issued this way? Even the plastic ones issued online and posted out?

Seemingly he didn't learn his lesson last time so perhaps he will this time... I hope the IPFAS take note of that stupid comment.

Ah, a very good point. My 'one chance' per 12 months would not be of much use to a repeat offender!

It's odd that people who think it okay not to have the railcard can't see why it's rather important to have one. Can they not themselves figure out the obvious potential for fraud? And when it finally dawns on them, they'll appreciate why they may get into such problems.

 

[hassaanhc]

I actually got a partner (network) card for my wife today, and it was given to me in a ticket wallet. Don't all railcards get issued this way? Even the plastic ones issued online and posted out?

I didn't get one for my YP a few months ago. However I have a special card holder wallet thingy which I use for rail tickets and associated stuff, like my Oyster, receipt showing the validity of the monthly travelcard on it, railcard and any paper tickets.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I've often wondered where a letter like this would get somebody in that situation:



Dear Sir/Madam

I write regarding your Penalty Fare Notice relating to the occasion when I accidentally forgot to bring my Railcard.

As I'm sure you can appreciate, this was a simple, accidental failure on my part rather than any attempt to defraud your company, and as I am a legitimate holder of the Railcard you suffered no actual loss of revenue.

On that basis, I am delighted to enclose a cheque for the sum of £XXX as requested. I am delighted to do so because this sets a precedent that £XXX is the going rate to make good an accidental failure. I shall therefore look forward to invoicing you for £XXX when you make accidental failures, such as accidentally failing to provide the timetabled train on time.

Yours faithfully...

 

[yorkie]

I know there are rules that have to be enforced, but this guy's crime was not fare dodging, or buying a child fare when he's an adult, but forgetting his rail card

I agree - and so did the inspector, who merely correctly charged a Penalty Fare.

I also know that's no excuse, but as the railway is not out of pocket in any way, then maybe some generosity of spirit could be shown, especially in view of his efforts to explain his predicament in an amusing way.

Seems a bit mean of the guard not to let him excess on the train to a non-railcard fare, but I suppose that's policy too, or everyone would buy discounted tickets and say they'd forgotten their card if they got caught.

It's a pity we're not able to carry a photo of our rail card on our phone, which would be acceptable evidence that we possess one, if on a rare occasion we'd forgotten or mislaid it. I believe it is possible with some TOCs to show a phone image of a ticket (or have I got that wrong?).

It was not "mean of the guard"; guards cannot charge PFs!

As for carrying Railcards on 'phones, what do you do if your 'phone runs out of battery, or needs to be replaced?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really there are some jobsworth TTIs on here. Can only see their rulebook and not the bigger picture.

The definition of a jobsworth is someone who adheres to their job to the letter. Revenue protection officers/inspectors generally do that, as that's their job to do that!

People make mistakes, like leaving a railcard at home. Massive penalty fares just mean they won't take the train next time - the PF revenue is wiped out by the lost custom in the long run.

I agree people make mistakes and Penalty Fares are designed for people who make mistakes.

I suggest you write to your MP or anyone who will listen and propose that PFs are abolished. (By the way, I am not a fan of Penalty Fares myself!)

Procedure should be simple - issue a PF, and if a valid railcard for the purchased ticket can be produced within 30 days, rescind the PF.

Some Train Companies do provide a refund of either the original ticket, or the replacement ticket. But many do not - perhaps because that could be fiddled and there's a bit of admin work involved.

People who legitimately forgot don't get hurt and see some customer service, people who fare dodge get PF'd.

Penalty Fares are higher than normal fares charged by people who make mistakes in certain circumstances. They are not a fine and anyone charged such a fare is not being accused of attempting to avoid payment of their fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This happened on an Arriva train I took a couple of weeks ago. Chap said he forgot his railcard, the guard excessed his ticket and then sold him the correct one - He ended up paying about £70 more. My bet is that he had bought a cheap advance ticket with his railcard online, and obviously a walk-on fare is a lot more.

That doesn't make sense. Excessed the ticket and sold a new ticket?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I'm sure you can appreciate, this was a simple, accidental failure on my part rather than any attempt to defraud your company....

...would be a better response when someone actually was being accused of attempting to defraud...

 

[Marvin]

When I forgot my Centro travel pass a few years ago (because I'd changed from my winter coat to my summer one, neglected to transfer all the contents of the pockets over, and didn't realise that until I got to Snow Hill), the penalty fare was waived once I sent proof that I did actually have a valid pass for the journey to the company.

Still had to buy a ticket for the day's travel, of course. But not having to shell out £20 for a genuine error that didn't actually cost the company anything was nice, and certainly left me with a positive opinion of the company and its customer service.

I didn't write them a poem, though.

 

[Clip]

Hands up all those on here who have never forgotten any of those? No one? OK then

.

*Raises hand* Me Sir! Me!

 

[jon0844]

When I forgot my Centro travel pass a few years ago (because I'd changed from my winter coat to my summer one, neglected to transfer all the contents of the pockets over, and didn't realise that until I got to Snow Hill), the penalty fare was waived once I sent proof that I did actually have a valid pass for the journey to the company.

Still had to buy a ticket for the day's travel, of course. But not having to shell out £20 for a genuine error that didn't actually cost the company anything was nice, and certainly left me with a positive opinion of the company and its customer service.

I didn't write them a poem, though.

Season ticket holders are given this benefit, and you either buy a new ticket in advance and claim back, or pay for a new ticket/penalty fare and claim/appeal later - which will probably be a little more bother if the latter.

It's quite possible to do the same for any other railcard, but there would have to be the same system to restrict how many times you could do it, and potentially attract the £10 admin charge to serve as an additional deterrent.

 

[trainophile]

As for carrying Railcards on 'phones, what do you do if your 'phone runs out of battery, or needs to be replaced?!

No battery means you're unable to prove you own a valid Railcard, so whatever penalty is applicable for not producing one applies. Get a new phone - just take a photo of your Railcard as soon as you start using the new phone.

 

[bb21]

No battery means you're unable to prove you own a valid Railcard, so whatever penalty is applicable for not producing one applies. Get a new phone - just take a photo of your Railcard as soon as you start using the new phone.

Given the ease of Photoshopping these days, I doubt this would ever be acceptable.

I do however like jonmorris0844's "one strike in 12 months" idea.