How the word "Northern" can have different connotations.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The "Northern Hub" project is meant to serve major cities in the north of England and its original costings seem now to be under close scrutiny.

Today, an announcement is made that the sum of £1 billion is envisaged for the cost of the LU Northern Line extension to Nine Elms and to Battersea.

Amazing to note the word "Northern" can have different meanings, depending what part of England you reside in, when railway projects arise.

 

[Polo Mint]

How dare you suggest that there is civilisation north of the Watford Gap!!

In all seriousness, anywhere can be north relative to the area, London Undergrounds Northern Line is in the north of London whilst Northern Rail covers a larger distances and refers to the Northern parts of England.

Northern Rail serves Newcastle, Manchester etc, which is in the North of England, but is not in the north of the UK. That would go to the Highlands or Aberdeenshire, or actually, probably the Shetland islands.

 

[Butts]

How dare you suggest that there is civilisation north of the Watford Gap!!

In all seriousness, anywhere can be north relative to the area, London Undergrounds Northern Line is in the north of London whilst Northern Rail covers a larger distances and refers to the Northern parts of England.

Northern Rail serves Newcastle, Manchester etc, which is in the North of England, but is not in the north of the UK. That would go to the Highlands or Aberdeenshire, or actually, probably the Shetland islands.

However a lot of English people have difficulty in differentiating between England and the UK/Britain this should come as no surprise (particularly those south of the WG )

 

[Sod]

I'm feeling a little sensitive here - Northern is my surname, and there are not many of us.

 

[ECML180]

London Undergrounds Northern Line is in the north of London

How does this compare to the North London Line?

 

[WatcherZero]

If I was was stood on the Southern Pole the entire world would be the north to me...

Its all relative, though perhaps you are missing the distinction between the compass North and the geographical area of England often called The North, in which case it is not relative and if you were stood in Scotland you could say that The North was south of you.

 

[Manchester77]

In all seriousness, anywhere can be north relative to the area, London Undergrounds Northern Line is in the north of London

Yet it serves the most southerly London Underground station so really that should read its the name of a London Underground line which is an amalgamation of two main lines (Charring X, Euston & Hampstead and City & South London)

Sorry just the pedant in me coming out

 

[CNash]

The North doesn't have a monopoly on the word "northern"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No one has yet picked up the point that my posting mentioned the fact that a figure of £1 billion was quoted for the LU Northern Line extension (just Nine Elms and Battersea) as a comparison to the costs of "The Northern Hub" project that gives benefit to a number of large cities in "the North" on both sides of the Pennines and the costs quoted for that project.

Any thoughts on the development of that particular point ?

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm originally from Plymouth. Most places in the UK are Northern

 

[Manchester77]

Since they're effectively creating a new community in the old power station and nine elms area I think its a good use of the money and will benefit the developments in the area as well as bring the northern line a step closer to the much rumoured split. As a born and bred northerner it sure would be nice to see a comparable amount spent on a similar concentrated project such as the loan for metrolink (£1.5bn iirc) becoming £500m loan and £1bn grant or the further expansion of other local city schemes.

 

[tbtc]

The "Northern Hub" project is meant to serve major cities in the north of England and its original costings seem now to be under close scrutiny.

Today, an announcement is made that the sum of £1 billion is envisaged for the cost of the LU Northern Line extension to Nine Elms and to Battersea.

Amazing to note the word "Northern" can have different meanings, depending what part of England you reside in, when railway projects arise.

The Northern Line gets 252,310,000 passenger journeys per year (2011/2012 figure from Wikepedia)

Wiki also says that "Northern Rail transported 240.000 passengers daily" (240,000 x 365 = 87,600,000 per year?).

I don't know the total cost of infrastructure investment in northern England (not just the "Manchester" Hub), but they are certainly spending a few quid...

 

[Oswyntail]

....Any thoughts on the development of that particular point ?

Well it would be nice if London could take its place in the queue, but that is never going to happen. All the CBA will be skewed because of "London weighting". As for "creating a new community" - :roll: - what about "repairing existing communities". At the moment, London is the economic powerhouse of the country, but this has only relatively recently been the case, and, for the country to start moving forward, there needs to be much re-balancing.

 

[martinsh]

No one has yet picked up the point that my posting mentioned the fact that a figure of £1 billion was quoted for the LU Northern Line extension (just Nine Elms and Battersea) as a comparison to the costs of "The Northern Hub" project that gives benefit to a number of large cities in "the North" on both sides of the Pennines and the costs quoted for that project.

Any thoughts on the development of that particular point ?

Yes - you son't know how much the Northern Hun is going to cost - other you wouldn't have mentioned it in your post !

 

[daccer]

I think the OP is raising the much-debated question about investment priorities and there being an 'agenda' which sees London-centric projects going ahead whilst developments in regional areas seem to struggle for approval.

Looking at what is happening in the South East at the moment there does seem to be a drive for transport expansion with Tfl leading the push. They do seem to be able to raise third party finance for some of their projects and maybe this does highlight the need for a single entity to drive and manage transport in the North. The competing institutions who currently have input don't always have the same agenda.

If the Govt is serious about closing the economic divide between the South East and the rest of the country it is time to put some central cash into the pot and to get schemes like the Northern Hub done. There must be huge latent demand for public transport up North. As an aside i notice that discussion about Crossrail 2 are already underway!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes - you son't know how much the Northern Hun is going to cost - other you wouldn't have mentioned it in your post !

Well, there were provisional Northern Hub project costs put forward, but recent statements about looking at the Northern Hub seem to suggest that it is being sectionalised by the accountants and each section then is being scrutinised to see what cost savings can be made.

That being said, I do like your term "Northern Hun"...do I read some Germanic railway connotation in that ?

 

[Moonshot]

Well, there were provisional Northern Hub project costs put forward, but recent statements about looking at the Northern Hub seem to suggest that it is being sectionalised by the accountants and each section then is being scrutinised to see what cost savings can be made.

That being said, I do like your term "Northern Hun"...do I read some Germanic railway connotation in that ?

An alternative way of looking at that is for policy makers to put their business heads on and see where investment should be targeted as quick as possible for the quickest benefit return. State spending ( as in other Euro countries ) is under pressure ever more so now, so spending on rail north of Crewe , a region which covers a huge area but doesnt carry anything like the amount of traffic rail does down south, is always going to be more selective.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

State spending ( as in other Euro countries ) is under pressure ever more so now, so spending on rail north of Crewe , a region which covers a huge area but doesn't carry anything like the amount of traffic rail does down south, is always going to be more selective.

What seems to be overlooked is the fact that major northern cities are involved in the Northern Hub project (despite the fact that the cynical term "Manchester Hub" is sometimes used) and the regeneration benefit from the Northern Hub to these large British cities will most certainly predate any benefits that eventually come with HS2 in the time period envisage for that particular project.

No-one doubts the value of the large project works in the south to aid the economic growth there as past events have already seen the High-Speed line from London through the Channel Tunnel and the current projects such as Crossrail. However, does this mean that southern £1 billion line extension projects to lesser areas such as Nine Elms can take preference over the large cities in northern England that I made reference to in my first paragraph.

 

[alwaystouchout]

If the government is serious about breaking the North/South divide they need to be giving the regions strategic authorities (similar to the GLA) with real powers over housing, transport, environment and even borrowing powers etc - or at least initially establishing authorities focused on the West Midlands and North West to try and bring them 'up to speed' with the South East.

Given the current government's ideological aversion to regional government, and the North East's lack of support as demonstrated in the 2004 referendum, unfortunately I can't see this happening.

Before the current government abolished the regional development agencies I think I remember reading somewhere that for every £1 they spent, £4 was created in the local economy - although of course statistics can always be manipulated by those who promote them.

Slightly off tangent, but I can't help thinking we create a North/South divide ourselves with crass jokes about the poor North and prosperous South. Perth is over 2000 miles from Sydney and Australia is relatively cohesive - Manchester is two hours from London on the train and people act like they're poles apart. Of course there are serious economic inequalities between the North and South but let's no forget that about one in four people live in or around London so it's always going to be front and centre when it comes to infrastructure investment.

 

[Moonshot]

What seems to be overlooked is the fact that major northern cities are involved in the Northern Hub project (despite the fact that the cynical term "Manchester Hub" is sometimes used) and the regeneration benefit from the Northern Hub to these large British cities will most certainly predate any benefits that eventually come with HS2 in the time period envisage for that particular project.

No-one doubts the value of the large project works in the south to aid the economic growth there as past events have already seen the High-Speed line from London through the Channel Tunnel and the current projects such as Crossrail. However, does this mean that southern £1 billion line extension projects to lesser areas such as Nine Elms can take preference over the large cities in northern England that I made reference to in my first paragraph.

Its an argument which crops up time and time again, and not just in transport. I ve no doubt some ministers today are going to be miffed because there own departments have just seen the Treasury reduce their funding. So when public funds do become scarce clearly some rational decisions have to be made. But what might seem rational to government who look at the bigger picture might not look rational to the likes of me and you at a more local level. Unfortunately the average UK voter has a perception that state funds are a bottomless pit......

 

[fowler9]

It seems odd to me to spend a fortune increasing capacity at Heathrow (Or building a new airport) and building HS2 so the North gets a piece of the pie when there is already spare capacity at Manchester Airport. Emirates already think it is worth flying to Manchester 3 times a day and I believe 2 of those flights will be A380's before long.

Unless the Government stop spending so much money on infrastructure making the south east more attractive then people are going to have ever longer commutes or have to accept the style of living that people having in Hong Kong, and since the people who are well paid want a semi detached with a front and back garden I can't see that happening.

 

[tbtc]

What seems to be overlooked is the fact that major northern cities are involved in the Northern Hub project (despite the fact that the cynical term "Manchester Hub" is sometimes used) and the regeneration benefit from the Northern Hub to these large British cities will most certainly predate any benefits that eventually come with HS2 in the time period envisage for that particular project.

No-one doubts the value of the large project works in the south to aid the economic growth there as past events have already seen the High-Speed line from London through the Channel Tunnel and the current projects such as Crossrail. However, does this mean that southern £1 billion line extension projects to lesser areas such as Nine Elms can take preference over the large cities in northern England that I made reference to in my first paragraph.

AIUI it was originally called the Manchester Hub when first set up around five years ago - if you feel that it is cynical then I must apologise, but the transformation from "Manchester Hub" to "Northern Hub" seems to have been achieved by tacking on some small scale improvements on lines to/from Manchester (like passing loops at Grindleford) to justify the much more significant spending in Greater Manchester.

I mention this not in a "Manchester versus the rest of Northern England" argument, but to make the point that this "Hub" isn't about regenerating several large British cities; the vast majority of the spending (the Ordsall Chord, the extra platforms at Piccadilly) are in Manchester and aren't going to cause much regeneration in Newcastle, Sunderland, Hull etc.

(that's not to confuse the Northern Hub with the other infrastructure improvements in northern England announced as part of CP5 which were nothing to do with the "Hub")

 

[Lankyline]

Like everything else its the wider economic benefits that are being promoted for the Northern Hub, whilst the costings are being scrutinised for the Hub project, surely you would expect a figure of £1 billion for the Northern line to be subject to the same financial scrutiny.

Whats more important, benefits to major cities or a commuter belt in the London suburbs ? oh sorry forgot what London wants London gets ! (body armour on standby !)

 

[Moonshot]

Of course what every one forgets in this thread is that private sector investment doesnt recognise what you might call political boundaries (save for the usual planning regulations).

 

[soil]

When I read the title of this thread I couldn't help but think of the Northerners sketch from Harry and Paul,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK_KhzQEjoQ

reflects attitudes quite well I reckon