How technology will change the railways

[Alan Littler]

It looks like the electrification of the railways has finally reached my neck of the woods. I am situated on this line and it has been on the cards for a while. I have already seen the trains that are to be running on it (indeed a few are already in service) and they do look quite smart. Eventually the entire rail network will be electrified and i suspect that in time to come all trains will be similar to the DLR in the was that they are driver-less. In this day and age technology is so advanced that trains can safely be run by computers. Not only that though but who's to say that signal boxes wont become automated? The way that we are going is that humans will not have any jobs other than repairing these super computers when they fail. It's mind boggling to think where they will draw the line. Will computers be used to locate lost property? Will we lose our currency to computer currency? The railways are an integral part of our economy and us humans are losing them slowly but surely to robots/machines. Where does it end?

 

[Timrud]

Is this just a thread where people have been drinking too much today?

 

[6Gman]

It looks like the electrification of the railways has finally reached my neck of the woods. I am situated on this line and it has been on the cards for a while. I have already seen the trains that are to be running on it (indeed a few are already in service) and they do look quite smart. Eventually the entire rail network will be electrified and i suspect that in time to come all trains will be similar to the DLR in the was that they are driver-less. In this day and age technology is so advanced that trains can safely be run by computers. Not only that though but who's to say that signal boxes wont become automated? The way that we are going is that humans will not have any jobs other than repairing these super computers when they fail. It's mind boggling to think where they will draw the line. Will computers be used to locate lost property? Will we lose our currency to computer currency? The railways are an integral part of our economy and us humans are losing them slowly but surely to robots/machines. Where does it end?

No it won't.

Unless huge chunks are closed down.

 

[6Gman]

It looks like the electrification of the railways has finally reached my neck of the woods. I am situated on this line and it has been on the cards for a while. I have already seen the trains that are to be running on it (indeed a few are already in service) and they do look quite smart. Eventually the entire rail network will be electrified and i suspect that in time to come all trains will be similar to the DLR in the was that they are driver-less. In this day and age technology is so advanced that trains can safely be run by computers. Not only that though but who's to say that signal boxes wont become automated? The way that we are going is that humans will not have any jobs other than repairing these super computers when they fail. It's mind boggling to think where they will draw the line. Will computers be used to locate lost property? Will we lose our currency to computer currency? The railways are an integral part of our economy and us humans are losing them slowly but surely to robots/machines. Where does it end?

I doubt it. Possible on a closed system like DLR, very different on a widespread system with numerous outside factors: how many level crossings on DLR? How many sheep grazing adjoining fields? Do trees fall across the line?

 

[6Gman]

It looks like the electrification of the railways has finally reached my neck of the woods. I am situated on this line and it has been on the cards for a while. I have already seen the trains that are to be running on it (indeed a few are already in service) and they do look quite smart. Eventually the entire rail network will be electrified and i suspect that in time to come all trains will be similar to the DLR in the was that they are driver-less. In this day and age technology is so advanced that trains can safely be run by computers. Not only that though but who's to say that signal boxes wont become automated? The way that we are going is that humans will not have any jobs other than repairing these super computers when they fail. It's mind boggling to think where they will draw the line. Will computers be used to locate lost property? Will we lose our currency to computer currency? The railways are an integral part of our economy and us humans are losing them slowly but surely to robots/machines. Where does it end?

No they can't. I was on a train a few weeks ago which ran into downed overhead wiring. Driver brought train to a quick, safe halt; Driver & TM inspected for damage, kept passengers informed. How would a computer do that?

 

[GB]

Please for the love of all that is holy, can we not have another driverless train thread in 2017.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unless (or until) there are robots that match the ability of Commander Data (Star Trek, Next Generation), we are always going to need people. Robots can be programmed to deal with predictable situations; it will be a very long time before they can match human ability to deal with all feasible cases of "the unexpected".

 

[B&I]

Unless (or until) there are robots that match the ability of Commander Data (Star Trek, Next Generation), we are always going to need people. Robots can be programmed to deal with predictable situations; it will be a very long time before they can match human ability to deal with all feasible cases of "the unexpected".

Quite. Where does it all end? Probably round about the point where the endless proponents of automation acceot that there are whole fields where the quality of outcome provided by robots will never match what humans can manage.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Given the OP is a new member I think we can forgive them being unaware of just how much the subject of driverless trains has been done to death on here. Suffice to say the general opinion is that while the sorts of technologies that might allow such a development across a wider network are starting to appear we are likely decades away from them reaching sufficient maturity that we would feel comfortable with having genuinely autonomous trains on the national network.

I would add that while there are militarised drones flying combat missions under remote control said vehicles are not (yet) autonomous. Similarly while airliners and airports have sufficient technology such that aircraft could, in theory at least, fly themselves for the full flight, with on the ground taxi-ing being rather more problematic, nevertheless airliners above 19 seat capacity (I think) are operated with (at least) two pilots aboard with no signs that the public would support any reduction in that number. This in spite of the fact that for most of the flight the pilots are doing little more than monitoring/supervising the automated systems that are already in use.

As for centralised signalling Network Rail does have a plan to control the whole system from just 14 (or is it now 15?) regional centres but completion of the project is decades away. The Dutch national railway does indeed control all its signals from just one location (Utrecht) but when they had a major fire there the whole network was forced to shut down until their disaster recovery plan had swung into action (at least 24 hours). The Centralised Traffic Control that exists on many US railroads works only because train frequencies over the routes covered are low, typically freights running an hour or more apart.

Technology can sometimes be somewhat beguiling. Many of my generation grew up watching the BBC's Tomorrow's World which promised us all sorts of developments which would increase our leisure time. In practice the opposite has happened and we are tending to become "slaves" to the technology: note how young people seem unable to go more than a few minutes without doing something with their mobile phone. Or recording events rather than simply experiencing them. And all while continually being told that we're not productive enough and need to work longer/harder.

 

[TwistedMentat]

Software developer here. Technology can help out in small ways like improved ticketing experience, faster information transmission, trip planning, etc. Things that have made a huge impact on increasing the number of people using public transport in general. Just think back to the days before you could plan a journey from point A to point B on google maps specifying that you want to go by train.

What it can't easily do is double the number of tracks or have automatic train operation by tomorrow. If you look at a lot of the UK routes, they're essentially operating at capacity. Technology may help squeeze in another train or two an hour but you've still got to build and roll it out. That's a problem that involves people.

But it's useless for planning new track, negotiating the route, negotiating land purchases, getting massive costs and disruption through the political process.

Please don't fall into the trap that too many people do. Thinking that technology is the solution to everything. Technology is not a panacea to people problems.

So coming back to your question. How will tech change the railways? More of what is already happening. More integrated ticketing, better online experiences, squeeze safety margins in a safe way, help people with limited mobility more easily use the system, even faster dissemination of information around disruptions and what changes you need to make. Quality of life improvements, not raw throughput improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember that the Netherlands is a fraction of the size of the UK when considering a single control centre.

 

[richieb1971]

I'd rather that we spent more time developing ways to get to the stations without using roads. Governments are going to have to find a way to take traffic off the roads and at the moment they are not doing that, concentrating too much on everyone having their own cars with zero emissions. Having to use a car to get to the station, then park it for a £10 fee and then run off to a train seems silly.

If you taxed people for building infrastructure where they wouldn't need cars, I think that is the future we should be aiming for.

 

[Mintona]

I think the cleaners will be safe for a while. Beyond that, all the railway jobs could probably be automated.

 

[bastien]

You could probably automate a lot of the posts to this forum... In fact, I'm not entirely sure it hasn't already been done.

 

[LAX54]

Driverless Trains / No Signallers in boxes, all automated, odd that, now that some lines in Japan are bringing back 'humans' to run trains having realised that relying on computers is not always the best practice

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the cleaners will be safe for a while. Beyond that, all the railway jobs could probably be automated.

Though Roombas for hoovering the carpet may be a good investment.

 

[Mintona]

Though Roombas for hoovering the carpet may be a good investment.

There’s an awful lot of obstacles, such as seat bases, plus the need to clean seats, tables and overhead luggage racks.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, even I admire them, but the railways of the past had many more problems than even now. Literally hundreds of private companies, perplexing timetables ( I have a Bradshaw's timetable from 1923 and i can barely make sense of it!) And while the north of England are stuck with Pacers, 100 years ago on many small branch lines you were stuck with railcars. And don't forget the infrequent trains on even quite busy routes!

I know it's unpopular, but I think now is as good as the railways have ever been.

Software developer here. Technology can help out in small ways like improved ticketing experience, faster information transmission, trip planning, etc. Things that have made a huge impact on increasing the number of people using public transport in general. Just think back to the days before you could plan a journey from point A to point B on google maps specifying that you want to go by train.

What it can't easily do is double the number of tracks or have automatic train operation by tomorrow. If you look at a lot of the UK routes, they're essentially operating at capacity. Technology may help squeeze in another train or two an hour but you've still got to build and roll it out. That's a problem that involves people.

But it's useless for planning new track, negotiating the route, negotiating land purchases, getting massive costs and disruption through the political process.

Please don't fall into the trap that too many people do. Thinking that technology is the solution to everything. Technology is not a panacea to people problems.

So coming back to your question. How will tech change the railways? More of what is already happening. More integrated ticketing, better online experiences, squeeze safety margins in a safe way, help people with limited mobility more easily use the system, even faster dissemination of information around disruptions and what changes you need to make. Quality of life improvements, not raw throughput improvements.

Close thread. We have a winner.

 

[snowball]

As for centralised signalling Network Rail does have a plan to control the whole system from just 14 (or is it now 15?) regional centres but completion of the project is decades away.

Last I heard the ultimate number was supposedly down to 11 (as a result of the dropping of Edinburgh and its absorption into Glasgow), but with stages of implementation constantly shifting to the right, that theoretical number becomes less and less practically relevant.

 

[Aussie_Rail]

Technology improving the railways in the future can also be looked at in terms of what the railways was like 10, 20, 30 and 50+ years ago. Oh how the times have changed since then. If you look at the advances that have already been made over the course of those time frames, the future might hold more frequent advances.

Today we are graced with electric trains, trains with internal displays, oyster card ticketing systems, web and app bookings/top ups. LED lighting, modern breaking systems, signalling systems, more energy efficient acceleration and power supply, advances in safety both on board and in maintenance and also as previously discussed, some trains and systems are driverless.

What will the future hold? I think further advances in train design and operation, acceleration, signalling and frequency, how trains are timetabled, I think card based systems will be a thing of the past as already you can pay for your groceries with your phone, so it won't be long before you can pass through the gates without out having to do anything as this is already being explored in Singapore, no need to for a ticket or the need to tap on, you just walk through. Singapore already use driverless trains on the Downtown and Circle lines (I love standing at the front and pretending to be the driver).

 

[lammergeier]

Software developer here. Technology can help out in small ways like improved ticketing experience, faster information transmission, trip planning, etc. Things that have made a huge impact on increasing the number of people using public transport in general. Just think back to the days before you could plan a journey from point A to point B on google maps specifying that you want to go by train.

What it can't easily do is double the number of tracks or have automatic train operation by tomorrow. If you look at a lot of the UK routes, they're essentially operating at capacity. Technology may help squeeze in another train or two an hour but you've still got to build and roll it out. That's a problem that involves people.

But it's useless for planning new track, negotiating the route, negotiating land purchases, getting massive costs and disruption through the political process.

Please don't fall into the trap that too many people do. Thinking that technology is the solution to everything. Technology is not a panacea to people problems.

So coming back to your question. How will tech change the railways? More of what is already happening. More integrated ticketing, better online experiences, squeeze safety margins in a safe way, help people with limited mobility more easily use the system, even faster dissemination of information around disruptions and what changes you need to make. Quality of life improvements, not raw throughput improvements.

Begone with your common sense posting from a position of knowledge and experience