How should Northern Powerhouse Rail get through Manchester ?

[Halifaxlad]

Since HS2 to Manchester is to be scrapped and that NPR was to connect into at Picadilly, how should NPR go through Manchester ?

 

[PTR 444]

Rebrand the Crewe - Manchester leg of HS2 as part of NPR and build Piccadilly as a through station. Extend line eastwards to Leeds/Sheffield and build a branch westwards from Manchester Airport to Liverpool with a north-facing connection to the WCML.

Then provide the below service pattern:

3tph Manchester - London
2tph Liverpool - Newcastle/Hull
2tph Liverpool - Sheffield
2tph Birmingham - Leeds/Newcastle (if Eastern leg of HS2 is not reinstated)
1tph Manchester - Scotland

 

[Nottingham59]

Since HS2 to Manchester is to be scrapped and that NPR was to connect into at Picadilly, how should NPR go through Manchester ?

From Warrington Low Level, approach Manchester from the West, either over Carrington Moss or along the line of the Ship Canal; through station in the Centre, at or near Piccadilly; out towards Guide Bridge on the existing four track alignment; then tunnel to Standedge.

 

[The Planner]

From Warrington Low Level, approach Manchester from the West, either over Carrington Moss or along the line of the Ship Canal; through station in the Centre; out towards Guide Bridge on the existing four track alignment; then tunnel to Standedge.

Where is a through station going to be on that axis? or are we in the realms of an underground station with miles of tunnel either side which immediately starts to bump the price up?

 

[Nottingham59]

Where is a through station going to be on that axis? or are we in the realms of an underground station with miles of tunnel either side which immediately starts to bump the price up?

Put it where the HS2 Platforms were going to go, but at a lower level. Like Stratford International or OOC. A tunnel fron Piccadilly to Stretford Meadows would be far shorter than the tunnel from Ardwick to Davenport Green proposed for HS2.

 

[stuu]

Does it need to go to Piccadilly at all? There's a large east-west rail corridor across Manchester city centre already, which isn't used to it's full potential

 

[Noddy]

NPR is pretty much dead without HS2. The NPR name might stagger on a little longer but it will simply be ‘improvements’ to existing infrastructure.

 

[The Planner]

Put it where the HS2 Platforms were going to go, but at a lower level. Like Stratford International or OOC. A tunnel fron Piccadilly to Stretford Meadows would be far shorter than the tunnel from Ardwick to Davenport Green proposed for HS2.

Alongside P1? So a right old kink in the direction then. It would have to be very deep as well.

 

[Nottingham59]

Yes, or angled slightly close towards pure East-West. The exact location would depend on threading a route through deep foundations in Manchester city centre, but with many original victorian warehouses, which won't go so deep, I expect that will be possible.

And a modern high speed line can take a gradient of 1 in 25, so it gets deep very quickly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And a modern high speed line can take a gradient of 1 in 25, so it gets deep very quickly.

I thought the North was now not getting "a modern high speed line"

 

[AM9]

I thought the North was now not getting "a modern high speed line"

Well there will be TRU with high speed vinyls on the station signage.

 

[Ianigsy]

The way things are going, on the Metrolink tracks from Eccles to Ashton….

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, or angled slightly close towards pure East-West. The exact location would depend on threading a route through deep foundations in Manchester city centre, but with many original victorian warehouses, which won't go so deep, I expect that will be possible.

And a modern high speed line can take a gradient of 1 in 25, so it gets deep very quickly.

Multiple canals and rivers below street level to cope with too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Multiple canals and rivers below street level to cope with too.

Are there old colliery workings at depth that could be encountered and also underground springs at depth?

 

[HSTEd]

Does it need to go to Piccadilly at all? There's a large east-west rail corridor across Manchester city centre already, which isn't used to it's full potential

Putting it in Victoria will probably cause more problems than it solves, loses a lot of connectivity benefits.

I expect NPR will be quietly killed with HS2, he will make some noises about electrification but nothing will come of it.

Any money that does get saved will be diverted to M62 improvements instead.

 

[Arkeeos]

Build a giant through station above Piccadilly bisecting it, like Shin-Osaka, going from liverpool to manchester and then splitting to sheffield and Leeds.

Or back to reality, nothing, NPR will never happen.

 

[edwin_m]

Are there old colliery workings at depth that could be encountered and also underground springs at depth?

According to this map, there have never been any collieries in central Manchester.

Coal Mines - England - Northern Mine Research Society

Zoom the map in to find the mine that you want and point and click on the marker circle to view the data for that mine. If the marker in unclickable it might be that you need to zoom in further. Please note that the data contained here is...

www.nmrs.org.uk

Springs usually arise on hillsides, and the city centre is relatively flat. There may be an aquifer but it would be pretty deep.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to this map, there have never been any collieries in central Manchester.

Coal Mines - England - Northern Mine Research Society

Zoom the map in to find the mine that you want and point and click on the marker circle to view the data for that mine. If the marker in unclickable it might be that you need to zoom in further. Please note that the data contained here is...

www.nmrs.org.uk

Springs usually arise on hillsides, and the city centre is relatively flat. There may be an aquifer but it would be pretty deep.

Thanks for that. I made mention of "items at depth" as another contributor had mentioned a deep tunnel under central Manchester and this made me wonder that the underlying substrates might reveal.

 

[Halifaxlad]

NPR is pretty much dead without HS2. The NPR name might stagger on a little longer but it will simply be ‘improvements’ to existing infrastructure.

Well if you believe NPR was all new line then yes!

 

[Bantamzen]

Since HS2 to Manchester is to be scrapped and that NPR was to connect into at Picadilly, how should NPR go through Manchester ?

At the current rate, get off at Oxford Road, walk to St Peter's Square, get the tram to Victoria, hope that a TPE east turns up....

 

[Nottingham59]

Multiple canals and rivers below street level to cope with too.

My thinking is that the canal might make a good alignment for a single-bore twin track tunnel running from Salford Quays, along the ship canal to Castlefield, then up the line of the Rochdale Canal towards Piccadilly. No building on the line of the canal and mostly Georgian warehouses alongside.

Alternatively, the line of the Castlefield viaduct, with its Victorian foundations, would make a clear route, if you went deep enough.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My thinking is that the canal might make a good alignment for a single-bore twin track tunnel running from Salford Quays, along the ship canal to Castlefield, then up the line of the Rochdale Canal towards Piccadilly. No building on the line of the canal and mostly Georgian warehouses alongside.

I really hope that you are not proposing tunnelling in those locations, which will have untold disruptions for those who use the said canals.

 

[renegademaster]

I really hope that you are not proposing tunnelling in those locations, which will have untold disruptions for those who use the said canals.

Any work is going to have disruption on someone. Some pleasure boaters being annoyed for a few years is better than demolishing loads of houses

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any work is going to have disruption on someone. Some pleasure boaters being annoyed for a few years is better than demolishing loads of houses

Not involving in tunnelling at all will cause even less disruption.

 

[Moomo]

Rebrand the Crewe - Manchester leg of HS2 as part of NPR and build Piccadilly as a through station. Extend line eastwards to Leeds/Sheffield and build a branch westwards from Manchester Airport to Liverpool with a north-facing connection to the WCML.

Then provide the below service pattern:

3tph Manchester - London
2tph Liverpool - Newcastle/Hull
2tph Liverpool - Sheffield
2tph Birmingham - Leeds/Newcastle (if Eastern leg of HS2 is not reinstated)
1tph Manchester - Scotland

The proposed NPR route between Liverpool and Manchester was only chosen because it linked with the plans for HS2, and is suboptimal in almost every other respect, not least because trains would take longer than they do on the existing Chat Moss service, thanks to the indirect route via Manchester Airport, to say nothing of the need to reverse direction at Piccadilly. It would also require an immense amount of new-build infrastructure, and so could easily cost more than the £12 billion on offer. Brand new high speed lines have an obvious appeal, but they disadvantage the places in between, and the business case for them is universally poor. It might be boring, but the simplest, quickest and most effective option would surely be to upgrade the Chat Moss line to allow non-stop express services at speeds of up to 125mph, and to electrify and upgrade the CLC (Warrington Central) line to allow semi-fast services of up to 100mph. This would of course mean that NPR would travel via Victoria rather than Piccadilly, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. The cash saved (and there would be a lot of it) could be diverted towards the building of a "trans-Pennine tunnel", possibly between Newton Heath and Marsden (roughly 12 miles as the crow flies). This would deliver blistering fast journey times, far better than anything via M Picc.

 

[JamesT]

The proposed NPR route between Liverpool and Manchester was only chosen because it linked with the plans for HS2, and is suboptimal in almost every other respect, not least because trains would take longer than they do on the existing Chat Moss service, thanks to the indirect route via Manchester Airport, to say nothing of the need to reverse direction at Piccadilly. It would also require an immense amount of new-build infrastructure, and so could easily cost more than the £12 billion on offer. Brand new high speed lines have an obvious appeal, but they disadvantage the places in between, and the business case for them is universally poor. It might be boring, but the simplest, quickest and most effective option would surely be to upgrade the Chat Moss line to allow non-stop express services at speeds of up to 125mph, and to electrify and upgrade the CLC (Warrington Central) line to allow semi-fast services of up to 100mph. This would of course mean that NPR would travel via Victoria rather than Piccadilly, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. The cash saved (and there would be a lot of it) could be diverted towards the building of a "trans-Pennine tunnel", possibly between Newton Heath and Marsden (roughly 12 miles as the crow flies). This would deliver blistering fast journey times, far better than anything via M Picc.

The NPR route may be longer than Chat Moss, but services were still scheduled to be faster, even with a stop at the airport. A new 125mph+ line is going to beat an old 60/75mph one unless you double the length (which it doesn’t).
Is upgrading Chat Moss to a faster speed even possible? Previous posts have implied the formation wouldn’t cope.
You’re then looking at massive disruption whilst it’s upgraded and at the end you’ve got a two track railway where you’re trying to thread express services through stoppers and freight.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Any work is going to have disruption on someone. Some pleasure boaters being annoyed for a few years is better than demolishing loads of houses

What is being suggested is obliterating the "Rochdale 9" through the centre of Manchester and by the sounds of it, the junction between the Ashton Canal and what would remain of the Rochdale in the vicinity of Ducie St/Piccadilly station. It's a key part of the canal network, providing routes both East/West and North/South, which would be cut, leaving several dead end branches.

Leisure boaters are attracted to complete a circular tour using a route in the form of a ring. At a stroke the loss of the Rochdale 9 would break the very popular Cheshire Ring and the North Pennine Ring. If Ducie St Jn goes as well that breaks the South Pennine Ring.

 

[HSTEd]

The proposed NPR route between Liverpool and Manchester was only chosen because it linked with the plans for HS2, and is suboptimal in almost every other respect, not least because trains would take longer than they do on the existing Chat Moss service, thanks to the indirect route via Manchester Airport, to say nothing of the need to reverse direction at Piccadilly. It would also require an immense amount of new-build infrastructure, and so could easily cost more than the £12 billion on offer. Brand new high speed lines have an obvious appeal, but they disadvantage the places in between, and the business case for them is universally poor. It might be boring, but the simplest, quickest and most effective option would surely be to upgrade the Chat Moss line to allow non-stop express services at speeds of up to 125mph, and to electrify and upgrade the CLC (Warrington Central) line to allow semi-fast services of up to 100mph. This would of course mean that NPR would travel via Victoria rather than Piccadilly, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. The cash saved (and there would be a lot of it) could be diverted towards the building of a "trans-Pennine tunnel", possibly between Newton Heath and Marsden (roughly 12 miles as the crow flies). This would deliver blistering fast journey times, far better than anything via M Picc.

How are you going to upgrade the Chat Moss line for 125mph non stop expresses?

It has a dozen stations on it, or do you propose to close them all?

With modern railway equipment, especially autoreverse, the journey time penalty from reversing at Manchester will be minimal, if it exists at all.

Victoria also doesn't have the capability to accept large numbers of additional passengers and services, and cannot without an astronomically expensive reconstruction.
The HS2 tunnel to the airport proposal would remove multiple paths from the Stockport bottleneck, remove multiple paths from Castlefield and would allow a solution to the problem of the terrible service to the Mid Cheshire line.

(The tunnel comes up within a couple of kilometres of the Mid Cheshire line and within a few kilometres of the line through Wilmslow)

EDIT:

Stopping train on Chat Moss takes just over an hour today, with half hour service frequencies and three minute headways, you can have a fast train that tkes roughly 24 minutes less than that.

In summary, you might get a couple more minutes but even at an unambitious half hour repeating pattern, you won't get journey times much below where they are today without massive four tracking - which the line is really not conducive to.

 

[Nottingham59]

What is being suggested is obliterating the "Rochdale 9" through the centre of Manchester and by the sounds of it, the junction between the Ashton Canal and what would remain of the Rochdale in the vicinity of Ducie St/Piccadilly station. It's a key part of the canal network, providing routes both East/West and North/South, which would be cut, leaving several dead end branches.

Leisure boaters are attracted to complete a circular tour using a route in the form of a ring. At a stroke the loss of the Rochdale 9 would break the very popular Cheshire Ring and the North Pennine Ring. If Ducie St Jn goes as well that breaks the South Pennine Ring.

What I suggested was a single bore twin track tunnel well below ground level but following the line of the canal to avoid deep foundations from modern buildings, and any post- Georgian infrastructure.

Depending on how shallow the tunnel was, you might need a stoppage during construction, but the canal should be fine for navigation afterwards.

 

[Moomo]

The NPR route may be longer than Chat Moss, but services were still scheduled to be faster, even with a stop at the airport. A new 125mph+ line is going to beat an old 60/75mph one unless you double the length (which it doesn’t).
Is upgrading Chat Moss to a faster speed even possible? Previous posts have implied the formation wouldn’t cope.
You’re then looking at massive disruption whilst it’s upgraded and at the end you’ve got a two track railway where you’re trying to thread express services through stoppers and freight.

Many thanks for your reply. The problem with the proposed NPR route is that much of it is slated to run on the existing track between Lime Street and Ditton, then on upgraded but sharply curving track to Warrington BQ, then through suburban Warrington until shortly before the M6. Soon after that, trains will need to decelerate for the double curve into Manchester Airport, after which they would run in a speed-restricted tunnel (because tunnels are always speed-restricted). It's very possible that an upgraded Chat Moss route might actually enjoy higher average train speeds than the so-called "high speed line". Now, I'm no engineer, so I don't know how easy it would be to upgrade the CM route, but I do know that Network Rail have managed to four-track a section near Huyton within the last decade without causing much inconvenience. Four-tracking enough of the route to allow both fast and slow trains is well within the bounds of possibility, and is of course the situation on most of Britain's main lines. Moreover, the capacity-need isn't infinite: there needs to be enough space for four non-stop services per hour (as opposed to the current two), and that's it. Anything extra would be a bonus. As for "inconvenience": the current NPR proposals would cause a massive amount of inconvenience, and over a very much longer period, as the citizens of Camden and Buckinghamshire can certainly testify. Also, if we were to upgrade the existing routes, the project should remain within the purview of Network Rail, and thereby avoid needing to spend billions on assorted lawyers, consultants, compulsory purchase orders and compensation schemes, none of which would do anything to improve the situation. It is true that the existing proposals would have done much to relieve capacity bottlenecks on the WCML between Crewe and Weaver Junction and on the southern approaches to Manchester Piccadilly, but the curtailing of HS2 removes this advantage. It is also true that the existing proposals would relieve pressure on the Castlefield Corridor, but this needs to be set against the fact that they do little to improve the connectivity of Liverpool, which would gain minimal extra capacity and would remain as distant (timewise) from Manchester and Yorkshire as it is now, and might arguably be worse off because of the need for a reversal at Piccadilly. Frankly, it would be incredible if the country was to spend £12 billion to "improve transport links between Liverpool and Manchester" without significantly reducing travel time between the two cities, especially as very little of the £12 billion would have been spent in Merseyside. Scousers would be outraged, and rightly so. Indeed, if Steve Rotheram went along with it, he would deserve to be replaced by a Tory! And this might prove a crucial consideration, because Liverpool has specifically been included in the "Network North" consultation. It needs to be admitted (although I'd rather not get into this) that HS2 has almost certainly been too Manchester-centric, often to the detriment of other places, which doubtless explains why it has proved consistently unpopular with the British public, and why Sunak (and soon afterwards, Starmer) have felt able to slash it back. Put bluntly, if NPR is to have any chance of long-term survival, it will need to deliver meaningful journey-time improvements along the whole of the M62 corridor, and not simply act as the pretext for an urban regeneration project in South Manchester.