How on earth did Connex South Eastern operate the Marshlink line

[frankmoh]

In the early privatisation days, how did Connex South Eastern run the Marshlink line despite having no diesel trains? I know after Connex South Central took over the line, they would use their Class 205s and 207s, but I'm struggling to see how the line ran before that.

Spurred on from a comment by @yorksrob in another thread.

 

[The exile]

Presumably the motive power issue was the reason for transfer. Pre 1066-line electrification there were plenty of SE-Division demus around to work it - I’m surprised that once they’d gone it wasn’t moved across straight away.

 

[frankmoh]

Presumably the motive power issue was the reason for transfer. Pre 1066-line electrification there were plenty of SE-Division demus around to work it - I’m surprised that once they’d gone it wasn’t moved across straight away.

So what, Connex South Eastern had a line with no trains they could run on it?

I assume they would've gotten the Thumpers from COnnex South Central over to run it before realising that it should probably just go to them anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

In the early 90's it had its own dedicated fleet of adapted DEMU's (which later received a CEP trailer for the through Brighton service). This may have made things easier - may not have had to go back to Selhurst as often.

 

[The exile]

In the early 90's it had its own dedicated fleet of adapted DEMU's (which later received a CEP trailer for the through Brighton service). This may have made things easier - may not have had to go back to Selhurst as often.

Of course - I’d forgotten those. There was a period mid-90s when they were even let loose on the main line to Tonbridge (from Hastings!) for one return trip (school chucking out time IIRC). Got the timing spectacularly wrong - it was actually the 21.18 Ashford to Tonbridge (via Hastings) - presumably what I'd got in my head as feral schoolkids were actually a bit older. Guessing that on arrival at Tonbridge (23.08) it disappeared off ecs somewhere. Judging by the fact that I made the effort to get it in on Friday 10th May 1996 (207 201 did the honours), it probably ceased with that timetable change.

 

[Andy R. A.]

You have to go back to 1987. That year, the Maintenance Depot at St. Leonards closed, with the remaining Diesel units being transferred and maintained at Selhurst.

Three units were required to operate the Marshlink services back then, and there was a late evening/overnight working which would see one unit return to Selhurst and be exchanged for another if required. At that time, the other units were still programmed a daily visit Chart Leacon Depot at Ashford for fuel.

After Chart Leacon ceased fuelling, the units then had to visit Dover Town Yard to refuel, making things more difficult.

Things got more complex with the 'route branding' in later NSE days.

There were a number of units that were provisionally set aside with 'Marshlink' stickers, at one time these were 205101, 207101-3, 203001. When 203001 was withdrawn, 205016 was rebranded for Marshlink use, while the remaining Selhurst Units gained 'Oxted Line' stickers for the Uckfield Line. However, it nearly always seemed impossible to supply three serviceable units for the Marshlink services, and occasionally it meant loaning 'Oxted' branded units to cover.

Internal politics took over at some point and South Central put a block on sending any 'Oxted' branded units to cover the Marshlink services, leading to a number of occasions when the additional Peak Hour services between Hastings and Ashford were cancelled. (Strangely, it didn't prevent 'Marshlink' branded units turning up occasionally on the Uckfield services).

Being based at Hastings at this time, I well remember all the problems we had back then. Very early on there was still some flexibility in the late 1980s and there was a short spell when a DMMU was brought in to cover the shortages off the Tonbridge to Reading service. It was manned by Tonbridge Crews, and worked down empty from Tonbridge, did two trips across to Ashford, then on the last trip went into Chart Leacon to fuel, and then went empty to Tonbridge to work an afternoon service to Reading.

By the 1990s, this form of flexibility finally died. I have some pictures of the DMMU workings from a weekend when it was used to cover Ashford to Rye services during Engineering Works.

Much of the 'difficulties' were resolved when the Marshlink services were transferred from South Eastern to South Central control.

After privatisation, South Eastern Hastings crews were still used to cover some of the workings, but with the advent of the new 170s the work was all moved to South Central crews based at Eastbourne.


Turning round in the Down platform at Rye.


Running into Appledore from Ashford.



When 203001 was in use, shunting out of the Cleaning Shed at St. Leonards. Marshlink branded sticker between the nameplate and coach roundel.

 

[D7666]

Indeed, comprehensively explained above.

It is a slow legacy drift through depot closures, electrification projects, elimination of BR divisions, and regions, sectorisation, fragementation, TOU, and TOC.

It is often an error made looking back through these things, not just this one, but everywhere, to assume today's quite rigid division of crews and crew depots and stock applied from Day One of TOCs. It is never true, the processes started at least in 1994, and since then 40+ years of bit by bit removing blurred demarcation lines and share resource services.

Another Connex (and subsequent operators) example of this was the South Central or South Eastern Tonbridge / REdhill that has changed over time.

And, even now, Redhill. GTR drivers at Redhill still work 16x to Reading (or they still were last year at least and I not heard else since). Those trains at the Redhill/Gatwick at start and end of service each day are Redhill crews, and they stay out all day. I do not know of any other :

• current
• regular
• routine
• day in day out
• normal

passenger service where one TOCs services and rolling stock type are worked by another TOCs crew AND where the latter has none of the stock type involved. EXCLUDE diversions, one offs, emergency rescues, hired in crews from FOCs and other non-TOCs, etc. The question means one TOC booked to drive another TOC stock type and service.

ARe there any NOW, today, in the present timetable ?

 

[yorksrob]

Of course - I’d forgotten those. There was a period mid-90s when they were even let loose on the main line to Tonbridge (from Hastings!) for one return trip (school chucking out time IIRC)

I never knew about that - would have been an interesting working.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

You have to go back to 1987. That year the Maintenance Depot at St. Leonards closed, with the remaining Diesel units being transferred and maintained at Selhurst. Three units were required to operate the Marshlink services back then, and there was a late evening/overnight working which would see one unit return to Selhurst and be exchanged for another if required. At that time the other units were still programmed a daily visit Chart Leacon Depot at Ashford for fuel. After Chart Leacon ceased fuelling the units then had to visit Dover Town Yard to refuel, making things more difficult.
Things got more complex with the 'route branding' in later NSE days. There were a number of units that were provisionally set aside with 'Marshlink' stickers, at one time these were 205101, 207101-3, 203001. When 203001 was withdrawn 205016 was rebranded for Marshlink use, while the remaining Selhurst Units gained 'Oxted Line' stickers for the Uckfield Line. However it nearly always seemed impossible to supply three serviceable units for the Marshlink services, and occasionally it meant loaning 'Oxted' branded units to cover. Internal politics took over at some point and South Central put a block on sending any 'Oxted' branded units to cover the Marshlink services, leading to a number of occasions when the additional Peak Hour services between Hastings and Ashford were cancelled. (Strangely it didn't prevent 'Marshlink' branded units turning up occasionally on the Uckfield services).
Being based at Hastings at this time I well remember all the problems we had back then. Very early on there was still some flexibility in the late 1980s and there was a short spell when a DMMU was brought in to cover the shortages off the Tonbridge to Reading service. It was manned by Tonbridge Crews, and worked down empty from Tonbridge, did two trips across to Ashford, then on the last trip went into Chart Leacon to fuel, and then went empty to Tonbridge to work an afternoon service to Reading. By the 1990s this form of flexibility finally died. I have some pictures of the DMMU workings from a weekend when it was used to cover Ashford to Rye services during Engineering Works.

Much of the 'difficulties' were resolved when the Marshlink services were transferred from South Eastern to South Central control. After privatisation South Eastern Hastings crews were still used to cover some of the workings, but with the advent of the new 170s the work was all moved to South Central crews based at Eastbourne.

View attachment 185222
Turning round in the Down platform at Rye.

View attachment 185223
Running into Appledore from Ashford.

View attachment 185224

When 203001 was in use, shunting out of the Cleaning Shed at St. Leonards. Marshlink branded sticker between the nameplate and coach roundel.

I never experienced a DMU on the route, but was possibly a bit late on the scene for that. There used to be a nice varied selection of DEMU's on the line before the four got their modifications, as I recall.

 

[75A]

i can remember going on a DMU from Brighton to Victoria in 1982 during the Aslef Strike.

 

[Flange Squeal]

And, even now, Redhill. GTR drivers at Redhill still work 16x to Reading (or they still were last year at least and I not heard else since). Those trains at the Redhill/Gatwick at start and end of service each day are Redhill crews, and they stay out all day.

This ceased during 2023. The last Reading to Gatwick service returns to Redhill and sits in the sidings for a few hours overnight, before coming out to run a short hop down to Gatwick and then form the first Gatwick to Reading service. It is now crewed by a GWR Reading driver on a night turn.

 

[sprinterguy]

In the early 90's it had its own dedicated fleet of adapted DEMU's (which later received a CEP trailer for the through Brighton service). This may have made things easier - may not have had to go back to Selhurst as often.

Yeah, photographic evidence shows that these three '207/2' units remained the regular Marshlink traction into privatisation and up to replacement and withdrawal (with the trailers latterly removed during the winter), bolstered during this period by the only other surviving operational 207 at the time, 2-car 207017.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Actually, i recall reading somewhere that Marshlink never was Connex South Eastern. But Connex South Central. The reason for this was due to Connex South Eastern having no diesel trains. Probably what confused the mater was Connex ran both franchises until 2000 when southern bought out the Connex South Central franchise.

Looking at the wiki page. I crosschecked the references, the first one makes no mention of it transferring between south eastern and central (link below) and the second one was a consultation from 2008.

Connex consolidates after performance wobbles

INTRO: Antoine Hurel, Chief Executive of Connex Rail, part of the French-owned CGEA group, briefed Murray Hughes on progress with the group's two British franchisesMANAGING two large franchises that are mainly dependent on London commuting was always going to be a challenge. Connex Rail Chief...

www.railwaygazette.com

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2008-1359/DEP2008-1359.pdf

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, photographic evidence shows that these three '207/2' units remained the regular Marshlink traction into privatisation and up to replacement and withdrawal (with the trailers latterly removed during the winter), bolstered during this period by the only other surviving operational 207 at the time, 2-car 207017.

Yes, they were good old workhorses. Got them many times over the years.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Being based at Hastings at this time I well remember all the problems we had back then. Very early on there was still some flexibility in the late 1980s and there was a short spell when a DMMU was brought in to cover the shortages off the Tonbridge to Reading service. It was manned by Tonbridge Crews, and worked down empty from Tonbridge, did two trips across to Ashford, then on the last trip went into Chart Leacon to fuel, and then went empty to Tonbridge to work an afternoon service to Reading. By the 1990s this form of flexibility finally died. I have some pictures of the DMMU workings from a weekend when it was used to cover Ashford to Rye services during Engineering Works.

View attachment 185222
Turning round in the Down platform at Rye.

That’s actually quite an interesting DMU set - L417 was nominally a standard Pressed Steel Class 117 NSE set based on the routes out of Paddington and the North Downs. However for part of 1987 (from when I presume the photo dates) it ran with one of Reading depot’s spare vehicles, a BRCW Class 118 driving motor still in blue/grey. 118s were distinguishable by the curved top to the headcode box on the cab roof. Having been built for the West Country and spent most of its life working there, the southeast corner of Kent is an extremely long way from home!

(Why it has a Provincial North-West destination blind is anyones guess )

 

[ac6000cw]

That’s actually quite an interesting DMU set - L417 was nominally a standard Pressed Steel Class 117 NSE set based on the routes out of Paddington and the North Downs. However for part of 1987 (from when I presume the photo dates) it ran with one of Reading depot’s spare vehicles, a BRCW Class 118 driving motor still in blue/grey. 118s were distinguishable by the curved top to the headcode box on the cab roof. Having been built for the West Country and spent most of its life working there, the southeast corner of Kent is an extremely long way from home!

(Why it has a Provincial North-West destination blind is anyones guess )

Yes, it's certainly a very long way from Southport as well as the West Country

 

[Controller1701]

You have to go back to 1987. That year, the Maintenance Depot at St. Leonards closed, with the remaining Diesel units being transferred and maintained at Selhurst.

Three units were required to operate the Marshlink services back then, and there was a late evening/overnight working which would see one unit return to Selhurst and be exchanged for another if required. At that time, the other units were still programmed a daily visit Chart Leacon Depot at Ashford for fuel.

After Chart Leacon ceased fuelling, the units then had to visit Dover Town Yard to refuel, making things more difficult.

Things got more complex with the 'route branding' in later NSE days.

There were a number of units that were provisionally set aside with 'Marshlink' stickers, at one time these were 205101, 207101-3, 203001. When 203001 was withdrawn, 205016 was rebranded for Marshlink use, while the remaining Selhurst Units gained 'Oxted Line' stickers for the Uckfield Line. However, it nearly always seemed impossible to supply three serviceable units for the Marshlink services, and occasionally it meant loaning 'Oxted' branded units to cover.

Internal politics took over at some point and South Central put a block on sending any 'Oxted' branded units to cover the Marshlink services, leading to a number of occasions when the additional Peak Hour services between Hastings and Ashford were cancelled. (Strangely, it didn't prevent 'Marshlink' branded units turning up occasionally on the Uckfield services).

Being based at Hastings at this time, I well remember all the problems we had back then. Very early on there was still some flexibility in the late 1980s and there was a short spell when a DMMU was brought in to cover the shortages off the Tonbridge to Reading service. It was manned by Tonbridge Crews, and worked down empty from Tonbridge, did two trips across to Ashford, then on the last trip went into Chart Leacon to fuel, and then went empty to Tonbridge to work an afternoon service to Reading.

By the 1990s, this form of flexibility finally died. I have some pictures of the DMMU workings from a weekend when it was used to cover Ashford to Rye services during Engineering Works.

Much of the 'difficulties' were resolved when the Marshlink services were transferred from South Eastern to South Central control.

After privatisation, South Eastern Hastings crews were still used to cover some of the workings, but with the advent of the new 170s the work was all moved to South Central crews based at Eastbourne.

View attachment 185222
Turning round in the Down platform at Rye.

View attachment 185223
Running into Appledore from Ashford.

View attachment 185224

When 203001 was in use, shunting out of the Cleaning Shed at St. Leonards. Marshlink branded sticker between the nameplate and coach roundel.

Don't reconise the driver but I do wonder if that was Wombat in close proximity to his warning sign.....

Paul

 

[Andy R. A.]

Don't reconise the driver but I do wonder if that was Wombat in close proximity to his warning sign.....

Paul

Paul Stevens in the cab, George Middleton on the phone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2025 ==

That’s actually quite an interesting DMU set - L417 was nominally a standard Pressed Steel Class 117 NSE set based on the routes out of Paddington and the North Downs. However for part of 1987 (from when I presume the photo dates) it ran with one of Reading depot’s spare vehicles, a BRCW Class 118 driving motor still in blue/grey. 118s were distinguishable by the curved top to the headcode box on the cab roof. Having been built for the West Country and spent most of its life working there, the southeast corner of Kent is an extremely long way from home!

(Why it has a Provincial North-West destination blind is anyones guess )

I forget which end it was but it had stencilled on the inside of the route indicator box in the cab the legend 'Not to work into Paddington Suburban'.

 

[ac6000cw]

I forget which end it was but it had stencilled on the inside of the route indicator box in the cab the legend 'Not to work into Paddington Suburban'.

There's an explanation for that in the WR ATC to AWS conversion thread:

Regarding ATC fitted stock running over LT electrification, the key point was into the Paddington Suburban platforms. As I understand it the Pressed Steel suburban dmus, and the 61xx steam tanks before them, had an adaptation of their ATC shoes whereby as they approached Paddington Suburban a specially high ATC ramp lifted the shoe beyond normal level, whereby the mechanism clipped itself up, and on departure the reverse happened. The only other locos allowed on the approach track into Suburban were Class 08 shunters, which didn't have a warning system fitted at all. Some dmus which were later transferred to Old Oak/Reading didn't have this adaptation, and were inscribed boldly on the inside cab roof "This unit must not work into Paddington Suburban", which lasted on them long after the joint track usage ceased. If we are lucky someone will be along to say "Ah, I have the works drawing of how that worked" .

 

[norbitonflyer]

It was probably easier to arrange when South Eastern and Southern were both operated by Connex. I beleive there was some swapping of 375s between the two routes before Southern changed its coupling system and invented the 377.

 

[D7666]

i can remember going on a DMU from Brighton to Victoria in 1982 during the Aslef Strike.

Up to when Eridge / Tunbridge Wells closed, Tunbridge Wells West was a significant DEMU stabling point for Oxted line units, not just those on the Eridge shuttles, but Uckfields etc. There could be ten to a dozen there some nights stabling (e.g. 2x3 for the shuttles + 3x9 Oxteds = 11 units without thinking too hard).

Digressing, when the 3D units were new, they were entirely outbased at TWW for operating although SLEO allocated for maintenance. Their booked work was five 9car SX peak workings all to/from TWW itself or nearby points an two 3cars, 17 out of 19 diagrammed. Not intensive, the peaks trains did little more than one return trip a.m. and one p.m.

Back to 1980s,
as
3H / 3D units could not take the Battle route to get to their SLEO base, units were rotated (usually) via Victoria. On Sundays afternoons there were normally booked, varying with consecutive timetables, 9H/9D/HD on one Eastbourne and one Brighton - Victoria *** passenger trains; Up only, there were not balancing Down passenger workings. The balances and other days there were ECS; it was not unknown for those ECS to run passenger if required. ASLEF dispute notwithstanding, it is likely to have been one of those appropriated, rather than an actual deliberate allocation.

*** in one timetable the Sun Up Brighton was booked non stop, not even Croydon; I did it once; it wasn't spectacular by any means, just different.

 

[Taunton]

Back to 1980s,
as
3H / 3D units could not take the Battle route to get to their SLEO base, units were rotated (usually) via Victoria. On Sundays afternoons there were normally booked, varying with consecutive timetables, 9H/9D/HD on one Eastbourne and one Brighton - Victoria *** passenger trains; Up only, there were not balancing Down passenger workings. The balances and other days there were ECS; it was not unknown for those ECS to run passenger if required.

These used to be got together on weekdays after the a.m. peak at Selhurst, and as many units as needed attention would be run ecs via Haywards Heath and Lewes to St Leonards, a comparable formation returning after lunch, some changed over, others coming back. I used to visit the council offices at Lewes which overlook the line, and the Thumper formation opening up through the station was audible late mornings right at the back of the office. Although the noise was not quite as much as I once witnessed at Tunbridge Wells Central when two 12-car Hastings units both opened up to depart in opposite directions simultaneously.

Given that the main peak load on the Uckfield line was from north of Oxted, it was an extraordinary amount of extra running for them to do Tunbridge Wells W-Uckfield-Victoria-Selhurst-St Leonards, and then back.

 

[Controller1701]

Paul Stevens in the cab, George Middleton on the phone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2025 ==


I forget which end it was but it had stencilled on the inside of the route indicator box in the cab the legend 'Not to work into Paddington Suburban'.

Andy now you have said Mr Stevens as the driver it is now blindingly obvious who it is, just a very very young version of Mr Stevens

Paul

 

[30907]

These used to be got together on weekdays after the a.m. peak at Selhurst, and as many units as needed attention would be run ecs via Haywards Heath and Lewes to St Leonards, a comparable formation returning after lunch, some changed over, others coming back.

I have a vague memory that in the Up direction the units were used as a relief passenger train (needed at Eastbourne because of all the language students wanting a day out in London) - perhaps this was on Saturdays?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Wasn’t there a down London Bridge to Eastbourne service at one point?