• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How much would it cost

Status
Not open for further replies.

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
To electrify the entire National Rail Network, introduce cab signalling (whether conventional ETCS Level 2/3 or ETRMS-LC) on all lines and TASS on all appropriate routes?

I want an "extreme investment" plan for a project I'm doing and going for a Swiss style network is it. (My "moderate investment" model is the status quo and my "low investment" model is cutting subsidies to zero).
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,665
Well judging by current costs minus economies of scale youll be looking at at least 200 billion. With majority of cost coming from lines like the highland lines, S&C, and most rural lines. (Based on 2 billion for great western)
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
Really?
Would ERTMS-LC (With its lack of powered trackside infrastructure almost to the same extent as RETB, with only sealed passive balises) really cost such an extreme amount or is the supporting infrastructure for the electrification the killer on rural lines?
 

Terrafire

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2010
Messages
74
...my "low investment" model is cutting subsidies to zero).

If you don't include a list of hundreds of stations to close, and a map with about three lines on it, you are doing it wrong and wasting the opportunity. 8-)
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
If you don't include a list of hundreds of stations to close, and a map with about three lines on it, you are doing it wrong and wasting the opportunity. 8-)

To quote Sir Humphrey, there are two kinds of non-proposal......
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Electrification and resignalling of the Great Western together costs in the vicinity of £2bn, thats 100km, theres 10,505 km of unelectrified track and 5,249km of electrified track, say the signalling alone costs 1bn per 100km too.

That comes out around £250bn!

Naturally there will be variations, more rural locations increase access and electrification costs, signalling is cheaper where track layout is simpler and more complicated in urban areas, some places may require a lot of structures alteration where other would require almost none.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
Electrification and resignalling of the Great Western together costs in the vicinity of £2bn, thats 100km, theres 10,505 km of unelectrified track and 5,249km of electrified track, say the signalling alone costs 1bn per 100km too.

That comes out around £250bn!

Naturally there will be variations, more rural locations increase access and electrification costs, signalling is cheaper where track layout is simpler and more complicated in urban areas, some places may require a lot of structures alteration where other would require almost none.

I make Maidenhead-Cardiff 195km route kilometres alone. Large parts of which are quadrouple track (but I do recall there was a lot of talk about not electrifying the relief lines in certain areas).
Then you have to account for the route via Bath and the Parkway-Temple Meads connecting line which adds 63 route kilometres.
Additionally the spurs to Newbury and Oxford add another 43 route kilometres
You are looking at ~300 route kilometres in the currently approved project, plus the redoubling of the Golden valley line and numerous other supporting works.

Even so, not even accounting for the GWML project having a higher proportion of quadrouple track than the unelectrifeid national network average (indeed I can only think of one major peice of unelectrified quad track that will be left once the current commited projects are complete) you come out with a cost of roughly £70bn for electrification and resignalling of all non electrified route kilometres.

Meaning the resignalling work on the remaining parts would come to.... an awful lot for these ~£200bn estimates to be accurate.
I thought electrification was supposed to cost ~£500k/track kilometre or something.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Its not really that much more expensive to do quad track than double track, slightly larger supports and more wires but the cost planning, of installing the bases and the manpower is still the same. Great Western Electrification (which only includes one route through Bristol and some of the works being done for Crossrail anyway) was budgeted at £1bn, I make it roughly 150-175km. The Lancashire Triangle Manchester-Liverpool, Manchester-Chorley, Preston-Blackpool and Liverpool-Wigan I make just over 100km roughly and was budgeted at £300m. There are some major differences such as no new connections to the National grid or transformer stations being required in Lancashire, each connection to the national grid for example costs £20m a pop. When you start talking about electrifying the whole network you dont get those kind of savings from using existing infrastructure capacity, you need to keep building the transformer stations even though their in the middle of nowhere and hardly any trains use the line.

The Great Western signalling renewals London to Bristol have been budgeted around £1bn on their own, the South Wales section resignalling including heads of the valleys cost £400m but wasnt ERTMS like GWML will be. The Cambrian line being signalled with ERTMS cost £60m and thats only a frequency of 0.5tph though lengthy at 215km of actual track with 19 trains (3 NR test trains) fitted with the equipment, more will be fitted this year.
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
Im a little confused now, is the £2bn for the entire Great Western route modernisation including the electrification to Cardiff-London, Bristol via Bath and Oxford+Newbury or not?
If it is really this expensive where do all these figures of ~£500k/track kilometre come from?

Cambrian Line is also signalled using full blown ERTMS Level 2, whereas ERTMS-LC has an additional cost over RETB equivalent to the price of the balises.


Additionally as the length of track supported by a 25kV power system is controlled primarily by current draw and not voltage drop (1000V of voltage drop isnt that bad or whatever) does that not mean that lightly used lines could stretch the distance between substations considerably, especially with autotransformer equipment?
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Essentially yes, on lightly used lines you could have them twice as far apart, but that is still a lot of stations.

The entire cost of the Great Western Route Modernisation, including other things like capacity improvement, stations improvemens and rolling stock is actually £5bn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

edit: I think ive found your 500k figure!

The cost of UK catenary per single track km is £450,000 with £600,000 the average overall cost per single track km if you include the transformers and grid connections but not including structures alteration or any track allignment alterations required. You then have planning and financing costs, if a large project the cost of recruiting and training extra staff (as there wont be enough generally available in the labour market), etc..
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
I have been deriving my cost estimates from this report by Delta Rail which I got by FOIA last year, the Main Line electrification breakdown is presented in Appendix A on pages 75 and 76 (of the PDF).

Those estimates appear to include substations and grid connections and the like, I assume these are rubbish then? :|

EDIT:

Ahha, so that would be suitable for routes in the middle of nowehre with hardly any structures to modify?
It does not appear that there are many overbridges on many lines in scotland, compared to the length of the line atleast, and many of those appear to relatively large amounts of clearance for overhead wiring equipment to be installed.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Well for example it says £30,000 per bridge, how many bridges are there in the country and how many in Urban areas? :)
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
Well I just counted overbridges 21 between Crianlarich and Oban, which is about one every three kilometres :)

Ofcours for some of them you could just neutral out the wire under the bridge and save money that way.

EDIT: and 91 structures and three tunnels on the Highland Main Line, if we assume £30,000 is a reasonable estimate for the bridges (and just earth the line in the tunnels? How much does that rail thing cost?), then we can get an estimate for electrification of these lines and it doesn't come out to be that obscenely expensive.
 
Last edited:

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,316
Location
Herts
Factor in major upgrades to the National Grid and extra supply points - maybe more generating and distribution capacity - especially in rural East Anglia / Lincolnshire / Mid Wales / Scotland
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
Factor in major upgrades to the National Grid and extra supply points - maybe more generating and distribution capacity - especially in rural East Anglia / Lincolnshire / Mid Wales / Scotland

Only a relatively small number of grid supply points would be required in the sticks, especially if substations really can be placed at doubel the regular interval (which is roughly 100km, especially with autotransformer gear).

Most of the lines in Lincolnshire are within 50km (by the track) of a significant town which would already have access to the requisite High Tension supply lines. (For instance, a new supply point at Boston could support the entire Poacher Line east of Grantham, without drawing on the Grantham North supply point)

It is only in Scotland and the like where the distances start to cause issues, and only become especially apparent on lines like the WHL and FNL.

EDIT:
It would appear that it is the resignalling of the major lines that causes the cost issue, so if that premise was dropped, perhaps with ERTMS Level 1LS being implemented in place of TPWS and then switching to Regional/L2/L3 as the lines come up for resignalling in the normal course of things.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,698
If you work on £1m per single track mile for electrification, and the same for signalling, you'll be in the right ball park.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
HSTEd didnt want to clutter up the normal HS2 thread with it but while you were interested in headways did you read this?
http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/79246

Thats ridiculous, they are assuming rather anemic braking rates considering the headway would only be used like that in an emergency braking situation.
This also shows how Dynamic Block signalling is a neccesity for these things :)
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,662
You won't find any TOC that brakes to the full rate that the traction is capable of in normal service.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,287
You won't find any TOC that brakes to the full rate that the traction is capable of in normal service.

But this isn't normal service.

The only time a train has to brake to a complete stop prior to reaching the position of the train infront at the time the brakes were initiated is due to the train in front coming to grief (like crashing).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top